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Tony Attwood

You could be right, but without a definitive consensus, it is simply an opinion, as is mine.
Its's not my comment, but from a few reports I've watched or read, of academic research, in particular involving the use of functional mri of the brain, and other scan methods, and doing comparisons between the two genders.
From what I've read, it seems there is little definitive evidence that there are physical differences at birth between the genders, and most assumptions that there is a difference, have usually been just that - assumptions! Think about how discriminatory our culture and society are towards females, and how deeply embedded and systemic it is, it would be more surprising if this was not an factor!? Personally, I believe it's the environment (including hormonal of course) that effects many of the differences.

For example, it's a sad fact that in general males will be pointed towards more engineering type learning and careers than females are likely to be (or at least this has been the case in some places for some period of time, even if not continuing right now), and this, among with many other directly and indirectly related matters, can have a major impact on that persons neural development, and it's certainly a fact that the brain is far more dynamically flexible and changeable than was recently thought by most experts. It's something that's difficult to prove, but equally, so is the alternative, and I haven't yet seen anything that I could use to differentiate the two, that's independant and empirical.

I think that is a subjective position to take.
Who determines who is more forward-thinking and modern?
See above?
I am not disagreeing with you.
I am simply making the point that what we are saying are opinions, not facts.
If you read carefully, you'll see I'm not actually making claims (unless I've mistyped somewhere - not impossible!), I'm asking questions that matter to me in making a better appraisal of the post.
I agree, and topics like the ones we are talking about here are often politicised.
Hence, the need to maintain a sceptical mindset, imo.
My central position is to doubt as much as I possibly can (to the limit of my ability), to generate the questions I need to answer, to come to my best understanding. That includes myself, probably more than anything else, often to my own detriment, but that's all subjective rubbish; point is, without doubt, there's no self-knowledge, just the adoption of someone else's opinions, however they've filtered through (imho - of course! ;) ). Maybe that's not the case, but how can anyone know that, without asking, and answering empirically. Not to doubt, is to not ask, that puts your opinion in the realm of uncertainty. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but very much depends on how it's subsequently used.
 
From what I've read, it seems there is little definitive evidence that there are physical differences at birth between the genders, and most assumptions that there is a difference, have usually been just that - assumptions!
It is generally accepted that female brains mature faster than male brains.
Where do you stand on that?
 
It is generally accepted that female brains mature faster than male brains.
Where do you stand on that?
That goes back to what I was suggesting, that from birth (for want of a more specific and relevant starting point), it's environmental rather than genetic influences, that will cause a diversion of development between the two genders.
Some are going to be directly related to their genetic gender encoding, so things like hormonal influences on physical and psychological brain development are not going to be very comparable between the two - for a start, each person will likely have different hormonal balances (and imbalances) to others of their gender.

On top of which, the gender itself will have certain weighting factors at least in the distribution of the various hormones involved in brain development. Boils down to - there's no worthwhile comparisons we can make here. Requires controlled laboratory experiments with a suitable group to get anywhere near being able to say anything definitive about that, but we have to acknowledge it's a factor.

But many other factors too. Maybe females mature faster due to their treatment socially and educationally (bit of cross-over there too, I'd imagine). Maybe they are forced to have to deal with some things that males are less effected by, possibly by dint of not being expected to, while there could be higher expectations of females?
And of course, this is all on a scale of age, and culture, and so many other things, again, we can't make any definitive conclusions, rather we can only see possible trends to investigate?

Finally (although there's lots more to discuss on this, but time and space and all that are imposing ...) how would we be measuring this? You say it's generally accepted, but by whom, how, and where and when?
Is this an example of what I mentioned about assumption's long embedded in our culture, and hence rarely acknowledged. Have you got any actual evidence to support that? (I'm not trying to be personally critical, this is a trap most of us fall into at some time or other, myself included. We have to accept our brains, ASD or not, are pretty poor devices when it comes to logic and rationality).

If you do have evidence, what's it's nature? What is it actually measuring? How do we even define maturity as it relates to that question? Has that been done in relation to any evidence about the matter being true in the first place?
I know my point of view (as separate to my opinions) isn't the most common, simply from experience of discussions, but it does have it's own relevancy and value, when correctly viewed with the right context.

So in the end, all I've pretty much done, is ask you a bunch of questions. Does any of that take you any closer to where I'm coming from? (as if I knew that myself! :laughing:).
 
Clearly it's not what you do, but how you do it, sort of thing, but a soft, soothing, supportive voice can certainly help some individuals feel safe and allow the meltdown subside.

It would be interesting to see a poll here on this subject to see how many autistic people experiencing an actual autistic meltdown prefers to have people talking to them, trying to reason with them, etc during the meltdown or how many want to be left alone so it can run its course.

I watched the vid and when Tony suggested that you tell an autistic person who is actively experiencing an autistic meltdown: "It will go.", I couldn't believe that because I thought it was absolutely horrible advice. I thought it was basic knowledge of autistic meltdown 101 that reasoning is short circuited in a meltdown. You don't talk a person down from a meltdown. You don't try to explain things. You don't try to tell them they're overreacting, etc.

If someone said to me, calmly or otherwise: "It will go." if I'm in a meltdown, I would take that as:

>I know you better than you know yourself.
>Your current situation isn't as big of a deal as you're making it out to be and you'll be back to "normal" soon.
>I'm directing you and your situation.
>I know more than you do.

And, holy hell if someone were to touch me during a meltdown.
 
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It would be interesting to see a poll here on this subject to see how many autistic people experiencing an actual autistic meltdown prefers to have people talking to them, trying to reason with them, etc during the meltdown or how many want to be left alone so it can run its course.

I watched the vid and when Tony suggested that you tell an autistic person who is actively experiencing an autistic meltdown: "It will go.", I couldn't believe that because I thought it was absolutely horrible advice. I thought it was basic knowledge of autistic meltdown 101 that reasoning is short circuited in a meltdown. You don't talk a person down from a meltdown. You don't try to explain things. You don't try to tell them they're overreacting, etc.

If someone said to me, calmly or otherwise: "It will go." if I'm in a meltdown, I would take that as:

>I know you better than you know yourself.
>Your current situation isn't as big of a deal as you're making it out to be and you'll be back to "normal" soon.
>I'm directing you and your situation.
>I know more than you do.

And, holy hell if someone were to touch me during a meltdown.
It would be interesting. Agree.

Having said that, I found your example of "I would take that as:...." I guess, those thoughts would have never entered my mind. To each, their own.
 
It would be interesting. Agree.

Having said that, I found your example of "I would take that as:...." I guess, those thoughts would have never entered my mind. To each, their own.

Have you ever had an actual autistic meltdown?

In my adult life I can thankfully count the number of times I've had an actual autistic meltdown on one hand. However, I think the word "meltdown" (ie nuclear meltdown) is the best descriptor because it connotes the absolute intensity of the situation. It's like the brain short circuits and has to go through the reboot process. For me if someone tried to intervene, talk me out of it, reason with me, etc it would be no different than forcing a power down in the middle of the reboot. Not constructive.
 
They'd enter my mind. ^^

When I'm having a meltdown I'm in fight or flight mode. My primitive nervous system takes over. I go within myself for safety by trying to purge myself of the outside world, whilst my BP and adrenaline surge. Having someone intercept me, talk to me as if they know better, or heaven forbid touch me, would be a disaster. My friend and I are both quite low functioning ASD. She's dx at Level 3 and I'm a 2, although my scores are actually worse than hers in many areas and it's likely I'm a 3 as well - especially when it comes to meltdowns or neurological control.

Having a Neurotypical man tell me what his research says I need is, quite frankly, offensive.
 
@Boogs, I find your thoughts on "brain gender" interesting. I have heard these talking points discussed before. However, as some have pointed out, when discussing gender differences, as we know, there appears to be a continuum from say, a very feminine, petite, soft-spoken, agreeable, low aggression, physically weak female with low testosterone at one extreme, and the very masculine, thickly muscled, thickly boned, physically strong, disagreeable, dominant behavior, high testosterone male. Certainly, simply observing many people in our environment, there is a lot of cross-over, and supports this idea that for the majority of the population, this idea of "a female brain and a male brain" becomes a bit muddled and supports your argument. No doubt, there are masculine females and feminine males. Furthermore, within the mean of the curves, there may be some truth to nurture being an important influencer of behaviors. However, the differences are at the extremes of the bell curve that 10% or so at either end, not the middle. So, to both arguments, nurture vs nature and male vs female brain, it's a bit of partial truths going on and it's about context and perspective. Both arguments can be correct or wrong depending upon the context and perspective.

Specifically, regarding autism, Dr. Baron-Cohen's initial theory of autism being an example of the "extreme male brain" has been disproven with larger sample sizes. In fact, as you probably know, with larger sample sizes, it was shown that ASD males tend to be LESS masculine and ASD females tend to be MORE masculine in terms of behavior and hormone levels than neurotypical controls, and does support the observation that gender dysphoria, LGTBQ+ individuals are disproportionately represented within the ASD community. Having said that, personally, I would fit into that "extreme male brain" category. I am at the far end of the bell curve. My wife is not a "girly-girl", but there is a huge difference between my personality, my build and physical strength, how I carry myself, the way I think, and hers.

Context and perspective. I agree that the literature regarding this has not been sufficiently studied with large enough sample sizes, or even sample sizes comparing the extremes of the bell curves. I am sure, as time goes on, and more information becomes available, we will be able to discuss these topics with more accuracy. ;):)

Take care :)
 
Have you ever had an actual autistic meltdown?

In my adult life I can thankfully count the number of times I've had an actual autistic meltdown on one hand. However, I think the word "meltdown" (ie nuclear meltdown) is the best descriptor because it connotes the absolute intensity of the situation. It's like the brain short circuits and has to go through the reboot process. For me if someone tried to intervene, talk me out of it, reason with me, etc it would be no different than forcing a power down in the middle of the reboot. Not constructive.
Yes. Like you, a handful of times. Pretty infrequent. Mine usually comes from some combination of stress, anger, frustration, disrespect, and false accusation. I really keep my emotions at bay all the time, forcing a calm, peaceful, stoic demeanor. It takes a lot of self-discipline and control, as it is not easy some days. I am aware of the sudden buildup and force myself to squelch it down. It comes on quick like a surge of energy. On occasion, it comes out as full-on, blind rage and screaming, an out-of-body experience, flashes of light, extreme ringing in the ears, extremely intense. I've called it "going black", the evil demons come out. Given my physical size and strength, most people are absolutely terrified to the point of freezing in fear. I've never had anyone around me say a darn thing. These are short-lived, I can usually forcefully collect myself and bear down to stop it, and then I will try to find some quiet seclusion, most typically, my bed. Later, I will do my best to apologize to those who witnessed it. It's humiliating losing control. I lose respect in myself and am concerned about how others perceive me afterward. I need to be respected, above all, and I am very concerned that people witnessing these events are going to think less of me. So, a great deal of effort is put forth to stamp out these emotions. My larynx is usually in pain for days afterward.

So, I am not sure if say, my wife or anyone else would have the composure to try to communicate with me softly, calm, and in a supportive manner during a meltdown. When you gave examples of how you would have thought, and I said these thoughts probably wouldn't have entered my mind. Upon further thought, I think it would depend upon who was trying to communicate with me and in their methods. If it was my wife, for example, I would have taken as nothing more than loving support. If it was one of my co-workers who wasn't sure what was going on, got excited, and started raising their voice, there might be Hell to pay. But, again, I don't try to interpret what others are thinking, even though I might have concerns about what they are thinking.

I have "mind-blindness", so again, those thoughts might not enter my mind. "Mind-blindness", in my case, has it's pros and cons, as people I interact with, they can say and do things and I just take it as it is without any thought towards interpretation or judgement. Interpretation is often with a cognitive bias that may not be fair to the other person. A logical reason to avoid this sort of thinking, but with me, it's just because my mind doesn't go there. I generally and naturally go through life without prejudging people. If I have questions, I just ask. Admittedly, this is a double-edged sword. I think the best of people until they prove themselves otherwise.

Would it be different for an autistic child who, perhaps, sees his/her parent as a loving support person?

As I suggest earlier, when Dr. Attwood mentioned this during the interview, this is within the perspective of a professional who has perhaps interviewed thousands of autistic individuals over several decades, and likely, the majority being parents and their children. This advice might not apply to the older adult.
 
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Oh poo! Sorry about the novel! Just sort of grew without my noticing! :cry:
@Boogs, I find your thoughts on "brain gender" interesting. I have heard these talking points discussed before. However, as some have pointed out, when discussing gender differences, as we know, there appears to be a continuum from say, a very feminine, petite, soft-spoken, agreeable, low aggression, physically weak female with low testosterone at one extreme, and the very masculine, thickly muscled, thickly boned, physically strong, disagreeable, dominant behavior, high testosterone male. Certainly, simply observing many people in our environment, there is a lot of cross-over, and supports this idea that for the majority of the population, this idea of "a female brain and a male brain" becomes a bit muddled and supports your argument. No doubt, there are masculine females and feminine males. Furthermore, within the mean of the curves, there may be some truth to nurture being an important influencer of behaviors. However, the differences are at the extremes of the bell curve that 10% or so at either end, not the middle. So, to both arguments, nurture vs nature and male vs female brain, it's a bit of partial truths going on and it's about context and perspective. Both arguments can be correct or wrong depending upon the context and perspective.
Disclaimer, anything I put forward as 'my idea' is really just my best guess on what I've carefully taken in on the subject. cross ref'ed against prior learning (I've always dabbled and worked in areas of science, and very much a 'jack of all trades', so I pattern match across a fair spread of subjects fairly well, but am not a big expert on many topics, but a v. good appreciation of how things are working). I do come up with 'revelations' I don't believe I've previously read or heard, but worked out myself (but then, in the end who knows for sure?). But all that said, I'm rarely badly mislead in the areas I feel confident to discuss, but I try to stick to questions in the areas I'm not (i.e. I don't BS deliberately if I can at all help it).

So, what you've said above, seems to me like your talking spectrums, yes? Maybe that's because it's how I see much of this sort of thing. Spectrums seem inherent in so many areas of human behaviour and activity, in many ways, not just neural cognition. It's the (normal?) human condition to categorise things, because this helps to make for faster more consistent reactions to life and death situations. And when that sabre tooth is sniffing the air, and you're hiding behind that tree, trying not to sneeze, you are going to have to make a damn important decision very soon, and very fast, if you're going to survive.

So you don't want to be thinking about whether this particular tiger has a certain colouring, or if it's sabre teeth are 4 inches or 5 inches long (etc, blah blah). You want to have as few things to consider as possible, dynamics that is, the things that are constantly changing within that particular situation, the rest can be pre-processed. So (and there are other reasons, but this one's easy to handle as an example) by categorising as much as possible, abstractions of the important data will help to make a fast and hopefully correct decision, and often, speed and decisiveness can be the the key to surviving, even before considering the best actual tactic (a brilliant tactic, committed too late, is no help).

Anyway, long description, but hopefully explains where I'm coming from? In essence categorisation is crucial to our operating efficiently, but is also a disadvantage in some areas of thought. We are almost unable to avoid categorisation. So much of our brain/mind uses this, even down to how our memories of the world and it's components are stored. We don't have a separate memory for every car we know of, we have a memory of a car object, that has certain attributes, but is generally pretty abstract. It acts as the base class of a car, but also requires extra classes to be included. So we have things like make and model and type of engine and type of vehicle and and and...
But we use the same underlying definition of a generic car, for all the more specific car memories, the particular actual objects themselves. This saves huge amounts of memory and processing compared to trying to store and access every car we know in it's entirety. This is a bit of a crude example, but I hope it gives an idea of what I mean.

But, what happens when our generic model is wrong? More specifically, what if it turns out there are maybe a dozen generic cars (at that level) because in our single generic memory/definition some component(s) of it, is actually different in up to a dozen different ways. So any decision based on that original model, that could be effected by those 'hidden' differences, could very well produce an irrational answer, that to the thinker, is as rational as they could hope for.

Consequently, categories are great for survival at a base level, but useless, in fact worse, negative when it comes to conscious cognition. And the brain is evolved not to care too much, if it ain't broke, don't fix it - what a shame we can't tell when it is broke!
So I finally get to my point (sheesh!), which is that we are very poorly equipped to make rational decisions without an artificial methodology to overcome our biases such as categorisation. To be presented with such a humongous collection of multiple spectrums, most overlapping and interfering with each other, using numerous rule sets, most of which we can't hold in our minds (unless especially skilled at something like that, which is rare) in any practical and productive fashion.

In other words (finally! he's gets to it!) how the holy heck can we possibly hope to come to solid conclusions about such a massively complex topic, in all our human frailties of thinking, life is a full spectrum issue, so many, to much to count, it's easy and tempting to make conclusions that on the face of it seem reasonable, but then that's also been how much misinformation has been so difficult to get past, even in our so-called advanced society (ha!).
Doubt everything. And when someone says they know something, doubt them even more! If they are correct, they should have the evidence (not their opinion) to back that up, along with the logical progression from evidence to conclusion. If they can't, it doesn't mean their wrong, but to not examine and investigate is tantamount to believing fairy stories at random.
Specifically, regarding autism, Dr. Baron-Cohen's initial theory of autism being an example of the "extreme male brain" has been disproven with larger sample sizes. In fact, as you probably know, with larger sample sizes, it was shown that ASD males tend to be LESS masculine and ASD females tend to be MORE masculine in terms of behavior and hormone levels than neurotypical controls, and does support the observation that gender dysphoria, LGTBQ+ individuals are disproportionately represented within the ASD community. Having said that, personally, I would fit into that "extreme male brain" category. I am at the far end of the bell curve. My wife is not a "girly-girl", but there is a huge difference between my personality, my build and physical strength, how I carry myself, the way I think, and hers.

Context and perspective. I agree that the literature regarding this has not been sufficiently studied with large enough sample sizes, or even sample sizes comparing the extremes of the bell curves. I am sure, as time goes on, and more information becomes available, we will be able to discuss these topics with more accuracy. ;):)

Take care :)
But it's still interesting stuff to talk about, I just just dislike positivity of an unquestioning nature, it actually intrudes in an unpleasant way, not exactly painful, but it's one of those cracks in reality that I can't ignore. And due to my personality and life, I can only consider a scientific approach as valid, as it's the only one that's ever worked for me.
 
If you do have evidence, what's it's nature? What is it actually measuring? How do we even define maturity as it relates to that question?
Interesting questions, but for another thread. ;)
 
It would be interesting to see a poll here on this subject to see how many autistic people experiencing an actual autistic meltdown prefers to have people talking to them, trying to reason with them, etc during the meltdown or how many want to be left alone so it can run its course.
Why don't you create one?

I never really thought I had "meltdowns" in the past, but I am now reassessing this.
I think more in terms of being "triggered," which is probably NOT the same thing.
The triggering process IS very EMOTIONAL.

I do get information overload and, at times, simply stop engaging, but that is rare these days since I chose to become reclusive.
"Rational Jonn" reasoned that simplifying his life wherever possible was a good way to reduce autistic stresses. :cool:
 
I watched the vid and when Tony suggested that you tell an autistic person who is actively experiencing an autistic meltdown: "It will go.", I couldn't believe that because I thought it was absolutely horrible advice. I thought it was basic knowledge of autistic meltdown 101
2 things here:

1. Tony may have been using a "technique" to garner information from Reggi.
2. *I* am autistic, but I know little about meltdowns.
3. We are on a spectrum, and different ppl may find what works for someone else may not work for them.
Having a reassuring/understanding/compassionate presence from someone else may be beneficial.
I think it might be for me under certain non-threatening situations.
I am heavily influenced by "acts of random kindness".

Yes, I know. I said two things, not three. :p
 
There are different types of triggers. Most of us on AF refer to triggers in the context of trauma triggers, which are often emotional flashbacks. Emotional flashbacks are caused when we reexperience an emotion which we felt previously during a traumatic situation. Sometimes we don't even remember what the inciting incident was, or what the name of the emotion is, but for the most part people with CPTSD are triggered by helplessness, guilt, and shame flashbacks regardless of the cause. These are by definition, emotional. They can still lead to "fight, flight, freeze, fawn, feign" behaviours and depending on the person's ability to escape the stimulus they can become physical in nature. People might scream, cry, lash out, etc., just as much as they may shut down (freeze), or become catatonic and mute.

These ^ aren't the same as autistic meltdowns. Not all people with CPTSD are autistic, for one thing.

The type of trigger which leads to an autistic meltdown is usually sensory. That's why they aren't as emotion-based as trauma triggers. For example, I can have an autistic meltdown because of sound. I have misophonia just like the woman in the video with Dr. Attwood. Those are true "autistic meltdowns". The difference between those and a tantrum is that we don't WANT something. We want to get AWAY from something instead. We want to avoid the sensory onslaught that is grating on our nervous systems like a cheese slicer. That's why it's usually very damaging for another person to try and intervene by adding more sensory by talking to us, touching us, or trying to change the environment on our behalf.
 
It would be interesting. Agree.

Having said that, I found your example of "I would take that as:...." I guess, those thoughts would have never entered my mind. To each, their own.
Agreed.
I inwardly groan whenever I hear this, but it is true, none-the-less:
"We are all individuals...
If you meet one autistic person, you have met one autistic person."

But I do adhere to the principle that, as a group, we do have certain characteristics in common.
We simply don't have ALL the same elements.

For example:
Autistic ppl are known for not looking at ppl in the eyes.
I actually enjoy it.
I think it has something to do with "Data Harvesting", for me. :cool:
 
If you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person, but an autistic meltdown is still "an autistic meltdown" by definition, and autistic meltdowns are from an overloaded sensory system.

I might like knowing someone understands or cares, or that they're in the next room holding space for me, but I wouldn't want anyone coming near me until the worst had subsided. It's counterproductive, otherwise.

Given Dr Attwood's years of reserach and accolades in the field of autism research it was odd to me that he didn't seem to know anything about the needs of people with L2-3 autism and severe sensory integration disorder.
 
https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/meltdowns/all-audiences
https://sparkforautism.org/discover...ly common,a problem with regulating emotions.
https://autism.org/meltdowns-calming-techniques-in-autism/
For discussion, there appears to be more to autistic meltdowns than simply an overloaded sensory system, although it does play a role. Emotional and communication dysregulation play significant roles, as well.

From these sources, it would appear that some combination of a dysregulated sensory, emotional, and communication system is at the heart of it. I suspect, from this discussion of our different experiences with this, for some it may be more one versus another. :)
 
Yes, emotion and dysregulation play a role but that's because they affect our nervous system. The key idea is that our nervous system gets overburdened by whatever stimuli is causing that emotion and that dysregulation.

Additionally, we can still have "non-autistic" meltdowns, breakdowns, tantrums, bad moods, or flip-outs for the same reasons NTs would.
 

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