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Toxic Positivity

Atrapa Almas

Atrapa Almas

70% INTJ + 30% ASPIE = 100% HUMAN
V.I.P Member
Autists people are said to have problems understanding what other people feel or think, and responding to those situations in a not optimal way. Im not so sure is that is true or not, because the "normal" ones tend to bully us and not the other way... The "Theory of mind debate is still open"...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...dren/202303/autism-and-the-theory-of-mind-tom
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

To add to the so said "lack of theory of mind" stuff, many of us have problems understanding or being aware of our own emotions. The "Alexithymia" stuff:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

By many of us I mean about 50% ...

https://autisticgirlsnetwork.org/alexithymia-and-autism/

If that was not enought, we can add trauma to the mix...

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/ptsd-autism
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/
https://neuroclastic.com/is-it-trauma-or-autism-or-both/

With this lovely context, it not rare that many of us (me included) do some mistakes when we try to comfort other people.

Even with the best intentions, we may fall in this trap called " Toxic Positivity". The name feels like an evil thing. What is is?

To put it short is when we try to push others towards being more possitive or optimistic in spite of their actual needs.

Lets say I find my daughter feeling sad and I try to "fix" her sadness pushing her towards being happy. That is toxic positivity. I have ignored her need to be sad, I have not connected with her, I have not listened to her true needs and by trying to "fix" her emotional state I have invalidated her feelings... Not a good father work.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958
https://www.fortraumasurvivors.com/post/toxic-positivity

Toxic positivity is specially harmful for PTSD people, because most of them have already been said that they lie, that they exaggerate, that what they feel is not right...

Abusers are known to do big efforts to present their victims as liars to others.

So many trauma victims have already being pushed to deny their own trauma and just continue with their lives with a smile as nothing had happened.

So in this case, when addressing people with trauma, depression, anxiety and/or any other difficult situation its important not to add to their problems with our un-intended toxic positivity.

Thanks for reading. Feedback is welcome.
 
Toxic positivity can be summed up by the “choose happiness” shirt I see all the time, that still remains a trigger for me and a lot of people suffering from chronic PTSD.
If only it were really that simple. Ignoring problems doesn’t make them go away.
 
I feel like everyone has been on the receiving end of toxic positivity at some point. In my experience it's because the other person is uncomfortable dealing with negative emotions and doesn't want to bring down their own mood.

I also agree with @Luca.. this unnerving trend of people trying to project their sunshine on everyone else because they're happy with their own lives does not make it easier to process your emotions. Each person's experience is individual and unique and should be respected..
 
Great post, thank you. I've never thought of toxic positivity as sometimes being accidental before, but it makes sense that even lovely, well meaning people would accidentally fall into that trap.

Unfortunately, I've seen toxic positivity almost border on victim blaming, with people suggesting a situation is someone's own fault because they somehow chose to not be positive enough.
 
Atrapa Almas said:
Autists people are said to have problems understanding what other people feel or think, and responding to those situations in a not optimal way. Im not so sure is that is true or not, because the "normal" ones tend to bully us and not the other way... The "Theory of mind debate is still open"...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...dren/202303/autism-and-the-theory-of-mind-tom
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

To add to the so said "lack of theory of mind" stuff, many of us have problems understanding or being aware of our own emotions. The "Alexithymia" stuff:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

By many of us I mean about 50% ...

https://autisticgirlsnetwork.org/alexithymia-and-autism/

If that was not enought, we can add trauma to the mix...

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/ptsd-autism
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/
https://neuroclastic.com/is-it-trauma-or-autism-or-both/

With this lovely context, it not rare that many of us (me included) do some mistakes when we try to comfort other people.

Even with the best intentions, we may fall in this trap called " Toxic Positivity". The name feels like an evil thing. What is is?

To put it short is when we try to push others towards being more possitive or optimistic in spite of their actual needs.

Lets say I find my daughter feeling sad and I try to "fix" her sadness pushing her towards being happy. That is toxic positivity. I have ignored her need to be sad, I have not connected with her, I have not listened to her true needs and by trying to "fix" her emotional state I have invalidated her feelings... Not a good father work.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958
https://www.fortraumasurvivors.com/post/toxic-positivity

Toxic positivity is specially harmful for PTSD people, because most of them have already been said that they lie, that they exaggerate, that what they feel is not right...

Abusers are known to do big efforts to present their victims as liars to others.

So many trauma victims have already being pushed to deny their own trauma and just continue with their lives with a smile as nothing had happened.

So in this case, when addressing people with trauma, depression, anxiety and/or any other difficult situation its important not to add to their problems with our un-intended toxic positivity.

Thanks for reading. Feedback is welcome.
Click to expand...
That is such a beautiful post you made. I’ve been down in the dumps lately. I’ve been constantly received toxic positivity, even from this forum as well. I’ve always been told to grow thicker skin and get over the hurt I’m having.

Regarding my recent post, I got a lot of backlash in relation to my feelings and experiences. I was told I’m not making any sense, and no matter how much I explained, I was still told that I brought it all upon myself and they projected things on me, making me the problem.

It is such a shame how the forum is supposed to be caring yet a lot I’m seeing is ignorance and lack of empathy. :( It’s sad. What’s even sadder is that I’ve participated in other mental health forums and was told the same thing and got kicked out as a result.
 
Atrapa Almas said:
Autists people are said to have problems understanding what other people feel or think, and responding to those situations in a not optimal way. Im not so sure is that is true or not, because the "normal" ones tend to bully us and not the other way... The "Theory of mind debate is still open"...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...dren/202303/autism-and-the-theory-of-mind-tom
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

To add to the so said "lack of theory of mind" stuff, many of us have problems understanding or being aware of our own emotions. The "Alexithymia" stuff:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

By many of us I mean about 50% ...

https://autisticgirlsnetwork.org/alexithymia-and-autism/

If that was not enought, we can add trauma to the mix...

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/ptsd-autism
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/
https://neuroclastic.com/is-it-trauma-or-autism-or-both/

With this lovely context, it not rare that many of us (me included) do some mistakes when we try to comfort other people.

Even with the best intentions, we may fall in this trap called " Toxic Positivity". The name feels like an evil thing. What is is?

To put it short is when we try to push others towards being more possitive or optimistic in spite of their actual needs.

Lets say I find my daughter feeling sad and I try to "fix" her sadness pushing her towards being happy. That is toxic positivity. I have ignored her need to be sad, I have not connected with her, I have not listened to her true needs and by trying to "fix" her emotional state I have invalidated her feelings... Not a good father work.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958
https://www.fortraumasurvivors.com/post/toxic-positivity

Toxic positivity is specially harmful for PTSD people, because most of them have already been said that they lie, that they exaggerate, that what they feel is not right...

Abusers are known to do big efforts to present their victims as liars to others.

So many trauma victims have already being pushed to deny their own trauma and just continue with their lives with a smile as nothing had happened.

So in this case, when addressing people with trauma, depression, anxiety and/or any other difficult situation its important not to add to their problems with our un-intended toxic positivity.

Thanks for reading. Feedback is welcome.
Click to expand...
With regards to the Theory of Mind article, I can see where the controversy lies with respect to this concept of "reciprocity". My natural difficulties with theory of mind definitely lie within the realm of reciprocity. It's one of the things that my psychologist first noted about me. Certainly, it's one of the things that I notice about me. Some people have this "gift for gab", the type of people that can walk up to anyone, have a conversation with a complete stranger, and within minutes be able to know quite about this other person, and even become friends with them. Not me. I can't seem to muster up a simple question or topic of discussion with my own wife, let alone anyone else. I mean I literally don't have the ability to make stuff up to talk about. I can look at someone with a complete "blank slate" and never be able to initiate, to the point of embarrassingly long periods of uncomfortable silences. Now, what I can do, is have someone else initiate and then I can run with a few responses, but then I can't keep things going after that. My typical communication interactions are very brief and to-the-point. I can't just make stuff up on the fly and just let a conversation flow from one topic to the next.

Theory of Mind also involves this concept of "perspective taking". So, I know I can cry along with someone who is profoundly sad, or laugh when they are laughing, but that's more of a "mirror neuron" thing that most animals have. However, I don't have a clue what anyone is thinking about me or anyone else unless they specifically tell me. If I want to know anything about my wife, in the moment, I have to specifically ask, and even then, sometimes, it's like pulling teeth to get something out of her. So, again, I think this taps into the importance of reciprocity, that curiosity about another person that triggers those "clarifying" questions. Some people have that curiosity and it just flows from them effortlessly, and there are others, like myself, that either don't have this ability to "bond" and be interested enough to even ask others about themselves, or share experiences.

Theory of Mind, at least within the context and perspective of myself, is a combination of "anti-social" behaviors, including a lack of reciprocity, a lack of interpersonal curiosity, a lack of wanting to bond with another, and alexithymia. Autism, meaning "self" or "auto", seems fitting in my life, as I really have been on my own, doing my own thing, and not being able to tap into all the benefits of having a support system of caring people around me,...the only exception being my wife. Now, as an older adult, having lived that experience, I do understand that there is no such thing as a "self-made" person, per se, as it always involved people around them to make all their success happen. However, I haven't been able to tap into that, myself. So whatever modest successes I have had in life, were pretty much my own doing. I don't see myself changing much in my old age. Be independent as much as possible, as people tend to be a distraction or an obstacle in my life. I am a dreamer, a planner, and am a goal-oriented person,...and in my experience, people tend to be obstacles to overcome. The less I deal with people, the better.

The article presented is just touching on the topic of reciprocity, but like most things, I am thinking it's more a combination of multiple things coming together that creates abilities/disabilities with regards to Theory of Mind.
 
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Neonatal RRT said:
Theory of Mind, at least within the context and perspective of myself, is a combination of "anti-social" behaviors...
Click to expand...

Thanks for your contribution to the topic, just wanted to tell you that "anti-social" is understood as psicopath behavour rather than non-social.
 
Atrapa Almas said:
Thanks for your contribution to the topic, just wanted to tell you that "anti-social" is understood as psicopath behavour rather than non-social.
Click to expand...
So, a more accurate language might be "non-social", however, I do think there is an element of "anti-social" that develops over time, not so much from a psychopathic context, but more secondarily from the perspective of "dealing with people" often presents a stress response, and therefore, something that we would rather avoid. More, or less, an "avoidance" response.
 
Interesting collection of thoughts and resources Atrapa Almas. Nothing to add at the moment, just appreciate your perspective here.
 
With regards to the autism vs. PTSD/trauma perspective, this was clearly written from a psychologist/psychiatric model of autism. No mention of the long, long list of clearly anatomical/structural/functional/physiological differences that identify an autistic brain. In many ways, the medical model, the core anatomy and physiology of autism, explains the psychological model, the behavioral responses in autism. Things that might make some stronger, in many ways,...may be the opposite in the autistic, and will more likely be interpreted as "trauma" and affect their lives for years, keeping them psychologically trapped and disabled. Things considered "tough love", "life lessons", "intense physical experiences" that benefit others, are more likely to be interpreted as "cruel and painful" by the autistic. In part, most notably, enlarged amygdalas, the "fear centers", are a common finding within the autistic brain, even at a young age. A fearful, stressful, misunderstood, life event, within the context of an enlarged amygdala, with more conductivity and connectivity, will produce a more intense response. This is just one example, but there are others that contribute, including dopamine turn-over, serotonin turn-over, oxytocin and vasopressin production, not to mention the altered neuron pathways, neuron cellular anatomy, conductivity and connectivity alterations, so on and so forth. The psychology and psychiatry of autism is secondary to the core anatomy and physiology, and then, our life experiences, our sensory interpretations, and learning over time.
 
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I hate the toxic positivity fad. Unfortunately it has also permeated into the mental health profession. Often people with genuine needs are being accused of being "stick in the muds" rather than given appropriate treatment.

Also, it's closely related fad cousin "mindfulness" is trotted out as a panacea for all kinds of serious mental health issues.

If someone unintentionally tries to invalidate a real problem someone is dealing with in a bid to help them feel more positive about things, that is to some extent forgivable. But if they persist in doing so when their error is pointed out, that is not really forgivable in my opinion.

Often when people try to say that ignoring problems and thinking positively will help, I offer to cut the brake lines on their car so they can demonstrate the ability of "happy thoughts" to over come real problems.

Don't get me wrong, being positive can help when being negative is the root cause of a person's problem. But it has to be the negativity that causes the problem, not something else.
 
MildredHubble said:
I hate the toxic positivity fad. Unfortunately it has also permeated into the mental health profession. Often people with genuine needs are being accused of being "stick in the muds" rather than given appropriate treatment.

Also, it's closely related fad cousin "mindfulness" is trotted out as a panacea for all kinds of serious mental health issues.

If someone unintentionally tries to invalidate a real problem someone is dealing with in a bid to help them feel more positive about things, that is to some extent forgivable. But if they persist in doing so when their error is pointed out, that is not really forgivable in my opinion.

Often when people try to say that ignoring problems and thinking positively will help, I offer to cut the brake lines on their car so they can demonstrate the ability of "happy thoughts" to over come real problems.

Don't get me wrong, being positive can help when being negative is the root cause of a person's problem. But it has to be the negativity that causes the problem, not something else.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree big time. Many forums engage in this unhealthy form of treatment. And believe me, I’ve seen the exact same instances as to what you’ve described.
 
When I think of toxic positivity, I think of The Simpsons character...Ned Flanders. One of the great Simpsons episodes was when everything went wrong for Ned and only then did he finally become normal and lose the façade of toxic positivity. Of course Ned is a caricature, but during the years that I went to church, I knew some people whose unbalanced positivity seemed like a rejection of the full range of authentic human emotions.
 
Magna said:
When I think of toxic positivity, I think of The Simpsons character...Ned Flanders. One of the great Simpsons episodes was when everything went wrong for Ned and only then did he finally become normal and lose the façade of toxic positivity. Of course Ned is a caricature, but during the years that I went to church, I knew some people whose unbalanced positivity seemed like a rejection of the full range of authentic human emotions.
Click to expand...
That's "Hurricane Neddy", it's one of my favourite episodes. I like the bit where the footage of Ned as a kid, shows him saying "I'm Dick Tracy, take that Prune Face, now I'm Prune Tracy, take that D*ck Face...".

EDIT: Not sure how, I could have sworn I'd censored the rude word, but while scrolling through this thread, somehow it wasn't?? Maybe my phones autocorrect "fixed" it. But I've now re-censored it. Sorry if it caused any offence. It wasn't my intention.
 
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Magna said:
When I think of toxic positivity, I think of The Simpsons character...Ned Flanders. One of the great Simpsons episodes was when everything went wrong for Ned and only then did he finally become normal and lose the façade of toxic positivity. Of course Ned is a caricature, but during the years that I went to church, I knew some people whose unbalanced positivity seemed like a rejection of the full range of authentic human emotions.
Click to expand...
I find toxic positivity associated with the 2016 movie Trolls, this movie was a painful experience to watch because of its horrible message. Seriously that movie was godawful.

Another movie I can find another good example of toxic positivity is from Pixar’s Inside Out, only it thankfully doesn’t go the same direction as Trolls went and it actually gives out a good moral that it’s ok to feel sad or angry or have other negative emotions and that’s what makes us human. A much better movie in my opinion.
 
Atrapa Almas said:
Autists people are said to have problems understanding what other people feel or think, and responding to those situations in a not optimal way. Im not so sure is that is true or not, because the "normal" ones tend to bully us and not the other way... The "Theory of mind debate is still open"...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...dren/202303/autism-and-the-theory-of-mind-tom
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2019-75285-001.html

To add to the so said "lack of theory of mind" stuff, many of us have problems understanding or being aware of our own emotions. The "Alexithymia" stuff:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia

By many of us I mean about 50% ...

https://autisticgirlsnetwork.org/alexithymia-and-autism/

If that was not enought, we can add trauma to the mix...

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/professional-practice/ptsd-autism
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/intersection-autism-trauma/
https://neuroclastic.com/is-it-trauma-or-autism-or-both/

With this lovely context, it not rare that many of us (me included) do some mistakes when we try to comfort other people.

Even with the best intentions, we may fall in this trap called " Toxic Positivity". The name feels like an evil thing. What is is?

To put it short is when we try to push others towards being more possitive or optimistic in spite of their actual needs.

Lets say I find my daughter feeling sad and I try to "fix" her sadness pushing her towards being happy. That is toxic positivity. I have ignored her need to be sad, I have not connected with her, I have not listened to her true needs and by trying to "fix" her emotional state I have invalidated her feelings... Not a good father work.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-toxic-positivity-5093958
https://www.fortraumasurvivors.com/post/toxic-positivity

Toxic positivity is specially harmful for PTSD people, because most of them have already been said that they lie, that they exaggerate, that what they feel is not right...

Abusers are known to do big efforts to present their victims as liars to others.

So many trauma victims have already being pushed to deny their own trauma and just continue with their lives with a smile as nothing had happened.

So in this case, when addressing people with trauma, depression, anxiety and/or any other difficult situation its important not to add to their problems with our un-intended toxic positivity.

Thanks for reading. Feedback is welcome.
Click to expand...
You are right, toxic positivity is wrong. You should be able to feel how you feel. If you feel sad and broken each day of life you should be able to.
People cannot change how they are born.
There are more negative style thinkers and there are more positive style thinkers.
Positive people often get mad at negative people because they talk about their problems 2 much and often cannot see anything good. Whereas negative style thinkers get mad when people tell them to cheer up or think more happy thoughts.
The reality is the world has both and all people have negative and positive days.
But telling someone to deny their feelings and just suck it up or be more positive and happy when they are broken is wrong and harmful.
 
What a fantastic thread!

The last thing any of us want to do is invalidate someone’s feelings, and I think it Is a very easy thing to do for anyone, whether they are on the spectrum or not.

I know I have a natural proclivity to be positive in uncomfortable situations, and often struggle with theory of mind tasks. I would like to think that the experiences navigating these situations over the years has improved my approach and I certainly recognize more now that sometimes people just need to feel heard. They don’t always want advice or sympathy or cheering up, they just need a connection and on their own terms. I think this is especially true for people that have suffered trauma.
 
In my experience, people cannot choose what mood they are in. Toxic positivists are merely ignoring that folks have bad days and feel bad sometimes, which is wrong. That, or they never learned to deal with negative emotions from themselves or others.
 
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