What is AutiGender?

[SunnyDay16]

It is understandable that you would not want to say anything if you feel like you are not being listened to or that nobody is willing to consider what you have to say and that people are talking down to you/patronizing you.

I don't think that anyone here is trying to be condescending, to insult you, or to say that you, as a person, are ignorant (although I can only really speak for myself and I often miss things that people say so I could be wrong).... In any case, I am not trying to do/say those things, and I do not think that you, as a person, are ignorant.

However, I do think that your viewpoints on this issue are uninformed; And if you don't care whether you are right or wrong/informed or uninformed and have no interest in learning more, then I would say your viewpoints are willfully ignorant.

This is not intended as an insult against you as a person, and I am not looking down on you or thinking that you are in any way lesser than myself or anyone else just because I think this about your views regarding sex/gender.

I have held uninformed and ignorant viewpoints about things -- I am certain I do now, and just don't know it.....everyone, at some point, is uninformed/ignorant about something.

I am simply stating what I think about your views when it comes to sex/gender, not what I think about you as a person, not what I think about your views on anything else.

Arguing against your ideas and for my own, challenging or inquiring about your ideas, those things do not mean I am patronizing you or trying to be insulting or disrespectful, nor does it mean I'm not considering what you have to say. How else are people supposed to debate and discuss things and to understand each other's points of view, except to lay out their own reasoning and arguments, and ask questions about the other person's views and the reasoning and arguments that underlie those views?

I would not bother asking questions nor laying out arguments if I was not thinking critically about what you say -- if I was not considering it. Just because I do not understand your views or do not agree with them does not mean I am dismissing your point of view without considering it.

Fair enough.

 

[Arkanu of Galatiel]

It sounds like nonsense, as Autism and similar phenomena are indiscriminate, and the only connection they have to gender is a higher incidence in males, and that in itself is disputed.

 

[AO1501]

It sounds like nonsense, as Autism and similar phenomena are indiscriminate, and the only connection they have to gender is a higher incidence in males, and that in itself is disputed.

It does not seem likely that autism is indiscriminate given that there are at least some genetic influences, but if you have sources, I'd be interested in seeing them.

And I think it has pretty much been determined that there is no gender bias in the incidence of autism, but that girls mask more effectively, thus are significantly less likely to be diagnosed.

And I think the question is whether autism is capable of affecting how an individual sees their own gender identity.

 

[the_tortoise]

I think this has already been said, but....

Maybe autistic people just have a harder time pretending to be a gender they are not, since autistic people may generally have a harder time pretending to be things they are not.....how the world views the autistic person may not matter as much, or may not be noticed/understood (or not to the same degree or in the same way as if the person was neurotypical).

 

[Arkanu of Galatiel]

Autism is indeed genetic.

The genetic aspect is thought to be a result of deletion of material in chromosome #17:

Chromosome 17

This one should have a karyogram:

Chromosomes & mtDNA

I will mention this: I'm kinda fuzzy or questionable with genetics, and I struggled with it in biology class. The punnett squares were the worst.

I put this up in case I missed something or someone wanted to use it.

 

[Bolletje]

Autism is indeed genetic.

The genetic aspect is thought to be a result of deletion of material in chromosome #17:

Chromosome 17

This one should have a karyogram:

Chromosomes & mtDNA

I will mention this: I'm kinda fuzzy or questionable with genetics, and I struggled with it in biology class. The punnett squares were the worst.

I put this up in case I missed something or someone wanted to use it.

The question in this topic isn’t if autism is genetic, though.

It’s about how someone’s autism may influence their perception of their own gender.

 

[CMZ]

On the one hand you say there are only two genders: male and female. But then you add intersex. How are you categorizing intersex, if you believe people can only be two genders? Is intersex a third option? How can you have a third option if there are only two options?

Intersex is not a third gender. It's a blending (somehow, some way) of the two genders. If someone looks like they are female yet says that they feel they are really a male that doesn't somehow create a third sex, because it's still only mentioning the two sexes. Female and male are the two sexes and there exists a wide range of expression within each.

 

[Anthracite]

Intersex is not a third gender. It's a blending (somehow, some way) of the two genders. If someone looks like they are female yet says that they feel they are really a male that doesn't somehow create a third sex, because it's still only mentioning the two sexes. Female and male are the two sexes and there exists a wide range of expression within each.

Intersex is a person who is characterised as being neither male nor female, based on their genitals not "fitting" either category. Intergender is the corresponding gender.
What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

 

[CMZ]

Intersex is a person who is characterised as being neither male nor female, based on their genitals not "fitting" either category. Intergender is the corresponding gender.
What is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

Kind of. There's a lot of intricacies involved. It's weird to make it a third gender based on nothing other than not being one of the other ones. A gender should be defined by actually existing characteristics, not lack thereof. If someone has AIS then they appear to be female but have the DNA of a male. Yet most of them feel female. Yet their condition is one of the intersex conditions that exist, because they have male aspects to them and female aspects to them. None of this creates a third gender.

 

[CMZ]

You can also have cases where someone appears male and goes their whole life feeling male yet decades into their life it is discovered that they have some female internal organs. Or perhaps they have that kind of intersex condition and they die without it ever being discovered. When they have that kind of intersex condition yet still feel male it doesn't make sense to tell them that their gender is "intergender" rather than male.

 

[Anthracite]

You can also have cases where someone appears male and goes their whole life feeling male yet decades into their life it is discovered that they have some female internal organs. Or perhaps they have that kind of intersex condition and they die without it ever being discovered. When they have that kind of intersex condition yet still feel male it doesn't make sense to tell them that their gender is "intergender" rather than male.

That was more of a generic statement, I wouldn't tell anyone what their gender is. If someone says they're X gender then that's what they are - their genitals are irrelevant.

 

[CMZ]

That was more of a generic statement, I wouldn't tell anyone what their gender is. If someone says they're X gender then that's what they are - their genitals are irrelevant.

I understand that you're not selecting anyone else's gender identity. Just saying that someone having an intersex condition doesn't mean we can presume they identify as "intergender." From my understanding most (not all) identify as male or female, even if weakly-typed.

 

[Anthracite]

I understand that you're not selecting anyone else's gender identity. Just saying that someone having an intersex condition doesn't mean we can presume they identify as "intergender." From my understanding most (not all) identify as male or female, even if weakly-typed.

I agree with you, I probably made it sound more forceful than I should have done. Perhaps saying that intersex people have the option of identifying as intergender would be better.

 

[55853]

I agree with you, I probably made it sound more forceful than I should have done. Perhaps saying that intersex people have the option of identifying as intergender would be better.

I don't understand this gender stuff properly (which is why I go by my sex), but my understanding was that gender is not an option but an intrinsic part to that person or something. Have I misunderstood?

 

[Anthracite]

I don't understand this gender stuff properly (which is why I go by my sex), but my understanding was that gender is not an option but an intrinsic part to that person or something. Have I misunderstood?

No you're right, it is intrinsic, but intergender is one of the possible options for intersex people to be born as (as is male, female, non binary etc.).

 

[the_tortoise]

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Intersex is not a third gender. It's a blending (somehow, some way) of the two genders. If someone looks like they are female yet says that they feel they are really a male that doesn't somehow create a third sex, because it's still only mentioning the two sexes. Female and male are the two sexes and there exists a wide range of expression within each.

A combination/blending creates a third sex (actually it creates more than just a third, because there are so many ways that this can happen) -- you can't combine two things into something new that is different from both the original two things and then claim there are still only two distinct things and nothing else ....it makes no sense.

 

[CMZ]

I agree with you, I probably made it sound more forceful than I should have done. Perhaps saying that intersex people have the option of identifying as intergender would be better.

Yeah, I just don't see it as a true, distinct gender category. It'd be like saying penguins aren't birds because they can't fly; they are still birds even if not the best examples of birds. But that doesn't stop someone from being able to identify that as "intergender." I am decently well-versed on the subject and never heard the term "intergender" until yesterday. Hey, you learn something new every day.

 

[CMZ]

---------------


A combination/blending creates a third sex (actually it creates more than just a third, because there are so many ways that this can happen) -- you can't combine two things into something new that is different from both the original two things and then claim there are still only two distinct things and nothing else ....it makes no sense.

I get where you're coming from. But "male" and "female" are not defined by being mixtures of other things, just by being what they are. Remember that we also have to be aware of the distinction between "sex" and "gender." If someone's physical makeup makes them 80% female and 20% male they haven't created a new sex, they are just their own unique blend of the only two sexes there are to choose from. They are free to make up a term for themselves if they want, but the understanding of their condition is only based on understandings of "male" and "female."

Take for instance:

Man Shocked to Discover He Has a Working Womb and Uterus

This person is not described as being some gender other than male or female, but as "a man with a working womb and uterus."

 

[SapphicGrace]

These would have been considered birth defects years ago and not typical of a normal male or normal female body. Wanting to be in the body of the opposite sex used to be considered a mental health issue as it was considered there must be 'something wrong' with them, that they were unable to see they were clearly a male or female (whatever body they were born into) and behave appropriately. Yes it was probably considered the 'dark ages' but it was a much simpler time and most parents were sensible and taught their kids to behave appropriately in line with what gender they were. There is still no logical need to deliberately confuse a child by letting it grow up without referring to it as he or she and then 'letting them choose'! If they called the child by the appropriate pronouns from the beginning then the child themselves at a later age said they weren't happy with being that sex and still weren't after counselling then the parents have done everything they could to raise their child properly and the child has (mental/emotional) issues the parents have no control over. Like a parent can't control if the child is born disabled or not. That doesn't mean they should never expect the child to be able to fit in go school/work etc from the beginning or fit into gender rules at school (a boy having to wear the same uniform as all the boys do). The child should learn in THAT environment he has to conform to society rules how he dresses in his own time is up to him.

Even though I personally only feel I can be myself in my own home (probably due to severe Exposure Anxiety) I'm glad my parents at least taught me how to present as 'normal' so I can do it for short times where necessary for the times I have no choice but to deal with NT's. Without discipline and very clear (black and white) descriptions of the way things were and how I was expected to behave as a girl and in school, in public etc I don't think I'd have got as high educationally.

There's a very good reason that intersex is not considered a birth defect anymore, and that being trans isn't a mental health issue. These thing are obviously confusing to you, seeing as you fight back any time someone tries to explain a topic to you, but kids? They ask questions, listen for the answer, and shape their world view based on what they receive. The kids I babysit are learning about depression and how you can see a therapist when you need help with your feelings because they ask me questions about myself and I give honest answers.

And honestly? Being given a specific set of rules for how to act isn't always helpful. I'm glad that you managed to get an education that you're happy with, but did you know that at least half the ASD population in the US never attend post-secondary education (college/university), and even fewer than that graduate? And I say at least because of under-diagnosis in women and people of color. I myself am about to start my second year of not being in school because of how horrible school was for me, and I'm still unsure if I even will attempt to go to uni.

But anyway, gender isn't real. It's a social construct; it only exists as much as we act like it is. Realizing that I didn't have to identify as "male" or "female" was a relief for me, my relationship with the label of ~Girl~ was always rocky. One could argue that chromosomes exist, and that genitalia exist, but don't you think it's a bit weird that we, as a species, think it's necessary to color-code our offspring based on visible reproductive anatomy? No other species do that. No other species put the same importance into gender and sexuality as humans.

If you don't understand other people's experiences with gender or sexuality, that just means you haven't had those experiences. I've never experienced racism, but I'm not going to say that being called the n-word isn't that bad. I'm not going to tell a physicist that they can't be good at physics because it's difficult for me. You don't need to understand exactly how someone feels to know that it can be true for them.

 

[--Aki--]

I'm autistic and feel like I could be non-binary (if I wasn't so lazy) but I'm not sure why you'd want to make an entire separate class for yourself and call it Autigender. Autistic kids already stand out enough. You'd think we wouldn't want any more boxes to fit into. Apparently I'm wrong though