What is Life?

[Crossbreed]

Well... since I cannot believe in God (this is one reason I build theoretical frameworks) can you help me understand which God must exist?

Also can bacteria praise God? if they cannot, are they life?

I prefer to speak to that topic in a PM (if you are interested). Even if you don't agree with my POV, this topic is best discussed one-on-one.

In the open forum, it often degenerates into...

Mousetrap Fission

 

[Streetwise]

The reason I ask these questions is not to question your responses (everybody) but to take you through my thought process. I can give you my answer for what life is but it does not explain how I came to it. I am more than appreciative that you answer! Thank you! This is an important part of the process for me (see 9) Some of my early definitions may be close to what you say here.

Here is how I build theoretical frameworks
1. I ask the question to myself
2. Come up with a theory
3. Do thought experiments to see if that theory is likely
4. If 3 shows the theory is unlikely... go to 2
5. If 3 shows it is likely do further thought experiments
6. If 5 shows it is likely... loop until it shows itself not to be likely then back to 2
7. If many many loops and alternate thought experiments show a theory to be very likely, start wrapping it in words.
8. Test every word definition and study the words that I wrapped around the theory (this process can take years)
9. Share it with other people and get thoughtful feedback (the hardest part)
10. Redefine as needed and if thoughtful feedback shows fallacy: go to 2

1-6 are almost entirely wordless in my brain.



Haha... I resemble that remark! I worked in a kitchen, lol. Also the gray rock thing has happened with many many people in my life. Especially exes! I have had some doozies... my fault though for not paying attention to the deep part of me that warns me about these things.



Well I am sure you have the same taste in the "opposite sex" as I do... Horrible! Luckily with the theories I am trying to describe here, I found someone like me and stopped using my "taste" to find people!

Also... talking about cells:
Yeah... aging is awful as the cells "forget what they are supposed to be" I have hair growing, like, in all the wrong places now



Why do they have this instinct or behavior?

Why the urge?



Well... since I cannot believe in God (this is one reason I build theoretical frameworks) can you help me understand which God must exist?

Also can bacteria praise God? if they cannot, are they life?



The ocean and atmosphere exchange gases, are they life?



I think the definition of life is much simpler than this. I can do it in one sentence


Again... this is not to say your beliefs or definitions are wrong. It is more about taking you through my definition. God is not part of it, so if you are religious, this definition will disappoint you

Like many in science can you prove the ocean isn't living?I can bet rocks are living ,just not from the very blind mindset of science.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I prefer to speak to that topic in a PM (if you are interested). Even if you don't agree with my POV, this topic is best discussed one-on-one.

In the open forum, it often degenerates into...

Mousetrap Fission

Well... in this case, I am more interested in discussing life in a non-religious sense since all religions may view it differently. This is purely scientific. Just a simple definition

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Like many in science can you prove the ocean isn't living?I can bet rocks are living ,just not from the very blind mindset of science.

Well... in many pantheistic religions, all things are living and people had pet rocks in the 70's... but I am not talking about science as blind here. And yes... science has a blind mindset. That is the point of science. All things are very likely or less likely. Religion is absolute.

What do you think would make NASA scientist all excited if they discovered it on Mars? What is life that is not a rock? They are not looking for rocks on Mars, but life.

 

[Greatshield17]

Why do they have this instinct or behavior?

Why the urge?

Well this is where God comes into the equation, as others have implied; God made living creatures and made them to live and not reject life.

Well... since I cannot believe in God (this is one reason I build theoretical frameworks) can you help me understand which God must exist?



Again... this is not to say your beliefs or definitions are wrong. It is more about taking you through my definition. God is not part of it, so if you are religious, this definition will disappoint you

I'm a bit confused here, are you saying that you do not believe in the existence of God, that you don't believe in the Triune God of Israel, or that you simply are trying to have this discussion devoid of anything theological?

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Well this where God comes into the equation, as others have implied; God made living creatures and made them to live and not reject life.


I'm a bit confused here, are you saying that you do not believe in the existence of God, that you don't believe in the Triune God of Israel, or that you simply are trying to have this discussion devoid of anything theological?

well... honestly I cannot believe in God (I cannot disbelieve either). I do not have the wiring for it. This is one of the aspects of being in my place on the "spectrum". Even you believe in God... there is a clear distinction between living thing and things that are not living. What makes things living things?

I am not interested in how they were created... at all. It is uninteresting to me since it has no proof. I am not steeped in Catholic dogma but I have read the bible and understand how Christians think life was created. I also understand over a dozen other creation myths. Cool myths, but they do not explain what life is... only how that religion views creation.

 

[Greatshield17]

Even you believe in God... there is a clear distinction between living thing and things that are not living. What makes things living things?

I believe the difference between living and non-living creatures, (I'm using the word creature in the original sense of the something that is created, hence the "creat" in "creature; not to be theological, I'm just using the word here because it sounds better than "things.") is that living creatures have autonomous behaviours pointed towards self-preservation.

 

[Finder]

Why the urge?

It is fundamental, because without it, the life would go extinct and no longer be life.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I believe the difference between living and non-living creatures, (I'm using the word creature in the original sense of the something that is created, hence the "creat" in "creature; not to be theological, I'm just using the word here because it sounds better than "things.") is that living creatures have autonomous behaviours pointed towards self-preservation.

good
Ok... so why is there self preservation? Some simply reproduce as well without much self preservation.

why reproduce? what is reproduction?

Wouldn't you just hate having a brain that does this constantly?

 

[Ursus Chainus]

It is fundamental, because without it, the life would go extinct and no longer be life.

Ok... why does life hold on to being alive? What the heck is this stuff called life doing with all of this?

 

[Finder]

Ok... why does life hold on to being alive? What the heck is this stuff called life doing with all of this?

Well, being dead does not appear to be a lot of fun. Self preservation seems to be fundamental. If you don't preserve your self, then you go extinct. What kind of life is looking for extinction? What is the incentive for dying out?

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Well, being dead does not appear to be a lot of fun. Self preservation seems to be fundamental. If you don't preserve your self, then you go extinct. What kind of life is looking for extinction? What is the incentive for dying out?

Ok... I hate to ask this.... why is there incentive? Death is neither fun or not fun but it inevitably happens for all living things... why would there be such a thing as death?

I know I keep asking questions based on your answers but this is my process within my own head...

 

[Finder]

Ok... I hate to ask this.... why is there incentive? Death is neither fun or not fun but it inevitably happens for all living things... why would there be such a thing as death?

I know I keep asking questions based on your answers but this is my process within my own head...

All I am really saying is that reproduction is the only thing that is common among life. If it can't reproduce, it cannot continue to exist. Existence is the point of life. Well, that and Starbucks.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

All I am really saying is that reproduction is the only thing that is common among life. If it can't reproduce, it cannot continue to exist. Existence is the point of life. Well, that and Starbucks.

Fun fact... any mid point between two Starbucks is a Starbucks which is rather pointless. Does life have a point? Other things exist... is there a point to that?

Here is are some questions that might help... what does a living thing reflect?

Do rhinos live in trees?
Do jellyfish swim in snow?
Do polar bears build igloos?
Do birds nest in lava lakes?

why don't they do these things? What does the form of an living thing represent?

If a baseball has known mass, velocity, acceleration and direction in a vacuum, can a physicist predict accurately where it will be 100 years from now as long as there is nothing influencing it?

if a baseball is thrown at a batter in a baseball game, can a physicist predict whether it will be a strike or a hit?

 

[Finder]

The form of a living thing represents its adaption to its environment.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

The form of a living thing represents its adaption to its environment.

good so what is that adaptation? what is happening with an adaptation?

How about this question...

What is memory? How does memory relate to function? How do adaptations relate to function and memory?

Do rocks have adaptations?

 

[Finder]

good so what is that adaptation? what is happening with an adaptation?

How about this question...

What is memory? How does memory relate to function? How do adaptations relate to function and memory?

Do rocks have adaptations?

Rocks do not adapt as they are not life. Rocks simply form based on the forces and chemistry of the environment.

Memory is a preservation function.

 

[Streetwise]

Well... in many pantheistic religions, all things are living and people had pet rocks in the 70's... but I am not talking about science as blind here. And yes... science has a blind mindset. That is the point of science. All things are very likely or less likely. Religion is absolute.

What do you think would make NASA scientist all excited if they discovered it on Mars? What is life that is not a rock? They are not looking for rocks on Mars, but life.

Because you have a narrow view of life

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Because you have a narrow view of life

Interesting... so there are no distinctions between living things and non-living things? That is an acceptable answer but it does not match my view in this case. It is unhelpful in explaining why I do not see disorders. Can you diagnose a rock? Can you see a rock as functional when it is something that nobody uses?

Regardless... just as I am accepting of religions as realities of some people, I also accept your broader view of everything as life. We all have different ways of viewing things. I need to keep one foot firmly planted in in the reality that we all live in (even if it is not exactly shared).

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Rocks do not adapt as they are not life. Rocks simply form based on the forces and chemistry of the environment.

Memory is a preservation function.

Preservation of what?
What kinds of memory exist?
Can function exist without memory?