Why does autism steal symptoms of everything else?

[Misty Avich]

It seems that every symptom of other neurological disorders are somehow either put into the autism criteria or are discussed as "an autism trait" among autistics. I'm not talking about co-morbids but actual "part of the autism spectrum".

For example, all symptoms of dyspraxia seem to be autism symptoms as well; clumsiness, poor motor skills, untidy handwriting, difficulties with tying shoelaces or riding a bike.

Autism also steals ADHD symptoms too, despite the venn diagrams; executive functioning difficulties, poor memory, disorganisation, impulsivity, short attention span, RSD, poor emotional regulation, and even hyperactivity and hypersensitivity.
Once upon a time RSD was mentioned more in the ADHD criteria and any descriptions you'd read online (if you typed in RSD, ADHD would come up), but now RSD is being claimed by autism too.

Also everything is correlated with autism; epilepsy, anorexia, even physical things like diabetes.

Autism must have like a million symptoms. What if one day every neurological disorder, difference, disease and mental health will be considered an ASD and might as well stick all people with mental health conditions, neurodevelopmental disorders, learning difficulties, and other brain wiring differences on the autism spectrum and abolish those labels by saying "autism is autism, everyone on the spectrum are so unique from one another that two opposites can be autistic".

What if I don't have ADHD but just all my ADHD symptoms are just ASD? I was told I don't have dyspraxia but if dyspraxia symptoms are also autism symptoms then how can it be possible not to have dyspraxia if you have an ASD?

 

[Judge]

To be autistic is not to have a handful of traits and behaviors. But rather to have far more than that. I once discussed this issue in another post many years ago. Where I showed a list of boxes with check marks indicating the difference between neurodiverse persons and others based on the sheer number of boxes checkmarked.

That it's entirely possible for a neurotypical person to have a few of such traits and behaviors. That it's not the type of ones that define the neurodiverse so much as it is the sum total of such traits and behaviors. And that a list of them that we might agree upon is likely to be woefully less than those recorded by medical professionals. All compounded by the possibilities of so many comorbid conditions.

ADHD? That's one consideration I've never been able to decide. Whether I have it, and whether or not its inherently comorbid to autism, such as my OCD, social anxiety and clinical depression. And with the advent of old age, there are other considerations besides autism that may well explain a gradual decline.

One thing for sure though, you can't depend on the professional medical community to always have an absolute answer to so many questions. Clearly they don't. They have bits and pieces of it all, but not a clear vision of who and what we are. Allowing an "eclipse" of sorts when it comes to so many other physical and mental conditions we may have in part, in whole or not at all.

IMO it does indeed seem like a "hot mess" at times, because that's what it really is. But I'm glad you posted your concerns. They bother me as well, and I'm pretty sure many others will agree. And that at times I'm wondering if the medical community at large is getting further away from who we are rather than closer to something more definitive and especially more accurate.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

For years, to study the antisocial personality disorder, psychologists went to prisons to study serial killers so they got a biased perspective of them.

For years, to study black people, psychologists took slaves as a reference, so they got a biased perspective of them.

This pattern is repeated over and over again. With other cultures, socioeconomic differences, other sexual orientations, Its everywhere but in the scientific method.

Of course it has also happened in autism. "Healthy" autists are yet to be studied. They are yet to be accepted by the autism community. Autism is defined as an illness, so illness symptoms is what you get. Biased.

The core definition of autism is based on disfunctionality. To be disfunctional, people need autism plus other things, like trauma.

That almost every autist person has experienced trauma is like almost every black person in the USA was an slave some years ago. Its a reality that its not necessary linked.

If you put black people in the same conditions of white people, they can do the same. And if you properly love, accept and teach autists people they can be way more functional that they are.

How much sleeping problems come from autistm itself and not for chronic rejection, trauma, and sensory overload?

So is it an autist symptom?

The neurodivergence movement defines autism as an alternative way to experience the world and process information.

But people will deny autists that condition unless they clearly struggle and show disfunctionality. So as only the disfunctional ones are accepted as autists, its impossible to find sense in the so called Autist symptoms.

Its like defining birds by "animals who have wings but cant fly": You will get penguins, young birds, chickens, falcons with broken wings. It will make no sense.

That there are way more gifted people with autism traits that NTs with autism traits should be such a clear sign that Autism should not be defined as an illness... But society has a lot of inertia.

Freud discovered that a huge number of women had been abused by their parents, society was not ready to accept that and called them liars and hysteric instead. That their tales were so similar was not important, the proofs were not important... Society has a lot of inertia.

Galileo discovered that the universe does not rotate around the earth, had proofs of it. It did NOT mattered. Society had a lot of inertia.

When a problem does not make sense (like the trajectories of all celestial bodies rotating around the earth) its usually because the definition of the problem is wrong itself.

The symptoms of autism do not make sense because by itself autism is not an illness. We, as society just refuse to study those humans who think, process information, and feel in autistic ways without suffering.

Wow, that was a wall of text.

 

[Mikah]

Two posts in and I already find a chance to start my opus on the theory of autism. Apologies to those who hold autism as part of their identity and may be offended by my ramblings.

I do not believe "Autism" is a real thing, that is to say, some genetic defect or problem with the wiring of the mind that causes problems socialising. Those who study and classify such things have mistaken cause for effect and effect for cause.

The key point of this theory is to presume that autistics do not have social problems because they are autistic. They are "autistic" because they have or, at key developmental stages, have had social problems.

I'll go into greater detail later on as opportunities arise, but to consider things very simply for the moment: The core of an autism diagnosis is two things,

1) Trouble socialising.
1a) Poor people reading skills, awkward body language, lack of emotional intelligence etc.
2) A set of odd behaviours and traits, particularly obsessive interests, repetitive behaviours etc.

The traditional view is that "autism", whatever that is, exists and leads to 1,1a and 2. I theorise that autism is a mirage of sorts, 1 is the real problem (and there are a million different ways to experience 1). 1a and 2 are the symptoms of 1.

For example, all symptoms of dyspraxia seem to be autism symptoms as well; clumsiness, poor motor skills, untidy handwriting, difficulties with tying shoelaces or riding a bike.

Autism also steals ADHD symptoms too, despite the venn diagrams; executive functioning difficulties, poor memory, disorganisation, impulsivity, short attention span, RSD, poor emotional regulation, and even hyperactivity and hypersensitivity.

Also everything is correlated with autism; epilepsy, anorexia, even physical things like diabetes.

What if... in some cases at least, and in line with my theory, the co-morbidities are the real problem? Humans are very sensitive to odd behaviour and physical signs of illness. These conditions could lead to social isolation, rejection and affect a person's ability to socialise properly and that may be what causes the old 'tisms to manifest.

That there are way more gifted people with autism traits that NTs with autism traits should be such a clear sign that Autism should not be defined as an illness...

This is probably related to the now-defunct Asperger's diagnosis. Being more intelligent than your peers or otherwise gifted offers another obvious way to become isolated from them. Bullying (social exclusion) probably springs to mind, but for a less obvious road - if you have no one to interact on your level, how do you practice socialising and grow with your peers in that aspect? You can't just chat with adults or older kids because they do not talk with you as they would a peer. You get a degree of baby-talk, which is not hugely useful.

 

[Misty Avich]

All my social awkwardness seems to be ADHD symptoms (like being impulsive and hyperactive and needing to think out loud) and typical social anxiety (I lack social confidence, take that away and I'll probably be socially adept). The two seem to sort of contradict each other and I can be introverted and extroverted at the same time, which is very awkward if you think about it.
That's my social issue.

Anyway, back to the thread, I think I was merely thinking out loud in my OP. ADHD seems to be becoming more and more like ASD by the year. It's a shame they had to eliminate all autism types and just lump it all together as though autism has no range or diversity at all. If they did divide the spectrum into different types then ADHD could be added to the spectrum and it would make it so much easier for people like myself who don't "feel" autistic nor "seem autistic" to others. Saying "I'm autistic" feels like saying I'm an ape or something (humans are closely related to apes but we're not exactly ever called apes). I don't know, that was probably a poor analogy of what I'm trying to describe, but the point is, the autism spectrum is too wide to just have one word for it.

 

[Jumpinbare]

You can't just with adults or older kids because they do not talk with you as they would a peer. You get a degree of baby-talk, which is not hugely useful.

I did. Not so much older kids, but adults. I guess they were able to guage that I was understanding them. I didn't get talked down at. I knew they had other responsibilities and couldn't be my full time pal, but I got a lot of useful information talking mostly with adults.

 

[Fino]

I like the idea of the stealing.

 

[Neri]

All my social awkwardness seems to be ADHD symptoms (like being impulsive and hyperactive and needing to think out loud) and typical social anxiety (I lack social confidence, take that away and I'll probably be socially adept). The two seem to sort of contradict each other and I can be introverted and extroverted at the same time, which is very awkward if you think about it.
That's my social issue.

Anyway, back to the thread, I think I was merely thinking out loud in my OP. ADHD seems to be becoming more and more like ASD by the year. It's a shame they had to eliminate all autism types and just lump it all together as though autism has no range or diversity at all. If they did divide the spectrum into different types then ADHD could be added to the spectrum and it would make it so much easier for people like myself who don't "feel" autistic nor "seem autistic" to others. Saying "I'm autistic" feels like saying I'm an ape or something (humans are closely related to apes but we're not exactly ever called apes). I don't know, that was probably a poor analogy of what I'm trying to describe, but the point is, the autism spectrum is too wide to just have one word for it.

It speaks to your misunderstanding of what autism actually is, more than not.
Your misconceptions are not anyone else's problems.
I'm autistic and I'm far from an ape. I'm a complex, caring, creative, human being. I just happen to have a brain that processes information in an autistic way. It doesn't make me intellectually diminished, and even if I were, I'd have qualities that are beautiful and exceptional strengths as is the nature of humanity. People with disabilities have strengths, even if other's fail to perceive those strengths.

Something that you could work on, is doing some research, some real research to understand what autism is. Our brains don't conform to the way neurotypical brains develop. We stay processing, within our brains, in the way children under 6 process information. That has nothing to do with intelligence. It is brain "wiring" if you will.

And you can still work on your emotional intelligence, being autistic doesn't preclude you from that. The way you persistently drop negative judgements about being autistic in a forum of autistic people is far from being emotionally considerate. You say it doesn't apply to anyone but yourself, but you are evading responsibility for the fact that you judge autism as if it were a sign of being an inferior human and to be honest, it IS insulting.

To say it makes you think you are an ape? Are you kidding me? That's very insensitive and you can't blame your autism for that. That's on you. And you CAN adjust your attitude, because it's doing you no favours.

 

[Rodafina]

1) Trouble socialising.
1a) Poor people reading skills, awkward body language, lack of emotional intelligence etc.
2) A set of odd behaviours and traits, particularly obsessive interests, repetitive behaviours etc.

What about sensory issues?
Information processing?
Communication difficulties?
Low dopamine and serotonin?

 

[Atrapa Almas]

What about sensory issues?
Information processing?
Communication difficulties?

If the target is to find the core autism definition, it must ignore those "symthoms" that do not allways apply to autist people.

Not all autist people have sensory issues or communication issues.

They all process info in a different way, and also percieve the world in a different way, and work better with centain info than with suppositions. There are many characteristics that are common to all autist people.

The core idea is that we just focus on those autists that have strong "difficulties", then having "strong" difficulties is obviously going to be part of every autist person studied so those difficulties will be mixed with autism itself.

@Mikah has not done an extensive list of known autist characteristics by frecuency, its not an scientific work.

But the main idea is the same as mine, there is much left to do and understand. Many of the traditional autism "flags" are not from autism itself, but co-morbilities.

 

[Rodafina]

If the target is to find the core autism definition, it must ignore those "symthoms" that do not allways apply to autist people.

Not all autist people have sensory issues or communication issues.

They all process info in a different way, and also percieve the world in a different way, and work better with centain info than with suppositions. There are many characteristics that are common to all autist people.

The core idea is that we just focus on those autists that have strong "difficulties", then having "strong" difficulties is obviously going to be part of every autist person studied so those difficulties will be mixed with autism itself.

@Mikah has not done an extensive list of known autist characteristics by frecuency, its not an scientific work.

But the main idea is the same as mine, there is much left to do and understand. Many of the traditional autism "flags" are not from autism itself, but co-morbilities.

It just seemed a bit reductive to me.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

It speaks to your misunderstanding of what autism actually is, more than not.
Your misconceptions are not anyone else's problems.
I'm autistic and I'm far from an ape.

Even if it is lack of knowledge or misunderstanding, its not "HER" misconceptions.

That view on autism as being sub-humans is widely spread into society. Not only among people who lack autism knowledge or experience.

It is shared by many (I would say most) psicologists and even parents of autist childs.

Being seen as sub-humans is the reason we have been trained like animals with behavoural "theraphy". That ABA stuff that was already used to "cure" homosexual people from being different...

https://nsadvocate.org/2018/07/11/t...ction-between-gay-conversion-therapy-and-aba/
So I think its good to post info and learn, and maybe not so good to target a person as insensitive, even if it was true.

 

[Rodafina]

Saying "I'm autistic" feels like saying I'm an ape or something (humans are closely related to apes but we're not exactly ever called apes). I don't know, that was probably a poor analogy of what I'm trying to describe, but the point is, the autism spectrum is too wide to just have one word for it.

I think this may be an unfortunate choice of words, and possibly a poor analogy like you said.

I don't think you are equating autism with being ape like. You are just saying that you don't quite feel like you fit in with other people with autism and there isn't really a good word for that. "Autistic" is not the right word for you, but "not autistic" doesn't quite fit either.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

1) Trouble socialising.
1a) Poor people reading skills, awkward body language, lack of emotional intelligence etc.
2) A set of odd behaviours and traits, particularly obsessive interests, repetitive behaviours etc.

Aren't these essentially perspectives, though? I don't think I have trouble socializing, I just don't like socializing the way most people do. They might find my body language awkward, but I find it comfortable. And I don't think my behaviors are odd. It's most people who do.

I don't deny the needs of many Autistic people, but one reason the diagnosis exists is because our behaviors don't give most people pleasure. Therefor we have "deficits" and are not "normal." It's more an argument of pleasure and validation, misplaced so we get stigmatized.

 

[Neri]

Even if it is lack of knowledge or misunderstanding, its not "HER" misconceptions.

That view on autism as being sub-humans is widely spread into society. Not only among people who lack autism knowledge or experience.

It is shared by many (I would say most) psicologists and even parents of autist childs.

Being seen as sub-humans is the reason we have been trained like animals with behavoural "theraphy". That ABA stuff that was already used to "cure" homosexual people from being different...

https://nsadvocate.org/2018/07/11/t...ction-between-gay-conversion-therapy-and-aba/
So I think its good to post info and learn, and maybe not so good to target a person as insensitive, even if it was true.

Point taken. I was particularly salty about the ape reference on top of other things said prior. And you are right, it's an attitude not confined to Misty. I got defensive and took it out on Misty who is struggling to integrate "autism" into her sense of herself, it sounds like that, anyway.
I myself have the ADHD issues as well, and I do feel her pain about the social struggles and identity issues. I've been there myself.

I'm having a rough day, emotionally, and I should, could, have been gentler, kinder, in my response.

 

[Aspychata]

I enjoy being alone, l am okay NOT socializing, and l love some of my autistic traits. I don't need to LABEL myself more to help you feel better. I can mask my way thru if needed. However, l can be in longterm relationships and be valued for who l am. Am l truly autistic? Yes, l feel that l truly am. So is my mom, so is my daughter.

 

[Neri]

I have done plenty of "pleasurable" for the other person socializing. I have done a lot of "fawning" which is something narcissistic people "love". I have done a lot of performance art that people give me feedback that they enjoy.
But, yes, I don't conform to what is expected a lot too, by so-called majority standards.
I've been very tenderhearted, which has caused me to get taken advantage of, exploited and burnt out, but, it's not unpleasurable for others.
So, I don't think THAT is a good measuring stick.
I still have "social deficits". I don't know how to ingratiate myself into social scenes, and I also have no desire to, more often than not. My interests are far more compelling than trying to "fit in".
I do feel that "being me" causes a certain amount of social discomfort to plenty of people though. It's probably that "uncanny valley" type of thing. And it's often not there with other neurodivergent people. I'm not even sure who feels the most awkward, sometimes. Is it me? Or are they uncomfortable and then I pick up on it? I don't know.
So yeah, I think I just talked myself back into your corner @Mr Stevens

 

[Suzanne]

Funny, because I feel that ADHD has "stolen" traits for ASD.

Only this year, have I heard a lot about ones being diagnosed with ADHD, and this got me curious and suspected that could not coexit, due to certain traits that contradict each other and it is having a friend who's daughter has been diagnosed with ADHD, that has concluded my suspicion. Even her therapist said there was no point testing for ASD, since it is clearly obvious she does not have that. However, does not mean that we could not understand our neurodiverse language and, in fact, my friend wants us to meet and feels we would be on the same page conversation wise.

I learned to ride a bike when a child and felt very proud of that achievement and loved riding my bike.

My handwriting is dire. Looks like a child's handwriting.

 

[Misty Avich]

Point taken. I was particularly salty about the ape reference on top of other things said prior. And you are right, it's an attitude not confined to Misty. I got defensive and took it out on Misty who is struggling to integrate "autism" into her sense of herself, it sounds like that, anyway.
I myself have the ADHD issues as well, and I do feel her pain about the social struggles and identity issues. I've been there myself.

I'm having a rough day, emotionally, and I should, could, have been gentler, kinder, in my response.

I didn't like your reply, if I'm honest. I was NOT comparing autistic people to apes. I thought my analogy was clear enough. We as humans descended from apes and are related to apes but we don't call ourselves apes, do we? ("We" as in the human population).

And thanks for saying I lack emotional intelligence. I thought that was one quality I could say I had. Maybe I do lack it. Maybe I'm a psychopath.

What happened on the other forum is repeating itself here now. That goes to show I'm a nasty, horrible psychopath. Or I'm just stupid. They can't all be wrong.

 

[Misty Avich]

I think this may be an unfortunate choice of words, and possibly a poor analogy like you said.

I don't think you are equating autism with being ape like. You are just saying that you don't quite feel like you fit in with other people with autism and there isn't really a good word for that. "Autistic" is not the right word for you, but "not autistic" doesn't quite fit either.

Thank you for knowing what I mean instead of jumping on to the offended wagon. I believe this could be the cause of why I was hated on the other forum, because I have difficulty explaining things and sometimes use poor choice of wording, mixed with a bit of impulse. This only seems to happen online, rather than offline. Offline I can use tone and expressions to add to my point and people seem to get it. On these forums I have to remember that people get easily offended and quick to call me lacking empathy.