Alienation Due to Understanding?

[Darkkin]

Post deemed pathological in nature. Censored due to offensive content.

 

[Slime_Punk]

Yes, except my attention to detail is laser-focused on my selfish little interests and everything else falls by the wayside. In that regard, I feel the same way, even if for slightly different reasons.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Absolutely everything in standardized testing, personality typing, genome sequencing, and pyschology testing has always put me into an extremely isolated minority.

Basically, infodump aside, I'm wondering if anyone else feels like the unicorn in a group of aliens, living alongside neurotypical people. Unicorn on the wrong planet.

This is what I have called the "alien observer" perspective. Yes. Absolutely.

 

[blue_bird]

I've never heard of the word tesselations before even when I did maths and physics in university. Unless another term was used for the same thing.

Seriously though, I enjoyed your post, the info you gave and the points you made. I don't think most people actually do any real research or hard reading these days, even journalists or scholars. People are used to being spoon fed soundbites, click bait headlines and assumptions by mass media. So if you do actual research then you're probably bound to feel alienated.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

You hit the nail on the head. Everything in our society has been dumbed down to the point where shallow thinking is emphasized. What goes for average thought anymore is banal and trite, and the echo chamber of social media rewards cognitive bias, including confirmation bias.

 

[Orange Glasses]

I get the distinct impression that most people do not look any deeper than what is clearly visible from the surface.

I think this is the understatement of the century.

Those with less developed brains (read lazy) will always criticize ideas, things or topics that attempt to stretch their intellectual capacity.

I think in a 100 years the Webster’s Dictionary will reduced to a pamphlet.

 

[Matthias]

Accuracy is not the order of the day. Convenience, conformity, and familiarity are. A majority of people only seem comfortable accepting what they have been told, not what archaeology and history actually prove. It doesn't align with their established context and because of that it is wrong.

I can definitely relate. When I try to share what I learned about autism, people tell me I'm wrong because what I learned doesn't conform to the genetic theories of autism people heard from doctors, popular websites, and the scientific community. It's definitely seems to me that the majority of people only seem comfortable accepting what they have been told, not what my experience and that of Bruno Bettelheim (the only person I know of who understood autism well) prove. Since it doesn't align with their established context, it must be wrong.

 

[Orange Glasses]

@Darkkin -

As a child growing up, and sometimes even now, I felt like I was from the Land of Misfit Toys. As a child, I remember asking my parents if I could move there with those that could possibly understand me.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I can definitely relate. When I try to share what I learned about autism, people tell me I'm wrong because what I learned doesn't conform to the genetic theories of autism people heard from doctors, popular websites, and the scientific community. It's definitely seems to me that the majority of people only seem comfortable accepting what they have been told, not what my experience and that of Bruno Bettelheim (the only person I know of who understood autism well) prove. Since it doesn't align with their established context, it must be wrong.

I hope our conversations have satisfied some level of context, perspective, and common ground on this topic,...that perhaps, others might not have.

To everyone else,...Matthias and I have already had this conversation.

1. Personal experience is unique to the individual,...it is a person's "personal truth",...and although it often does not transcend the broader perspective,...it should be respected. To deny someone their personal experience is wrong,...it actually happened.
2. Science and the scientific method is often misunderstood. It is slow and methodical, by nature. Take an observation,...something happened,...why? Create one experiment with a specific set of conditions,...a context and perspective,...and obtain some results. Often, you do not end up with 100% truth,...you get a statistical breakdown,...why? Run a different set of experiments,...with a related, but different context and perspective,..and obtain results. Rinse and repeat as many times as possible to obtain "body of knowledge" about a topic,...and it can take decades. The biggest problem that I see is that most lay people do not understand that when the media reports on a "breakthrough",...it is just one of many, many studies on a topic,...two, it might not be a breakthrough,...three, all the other studies before it are not false or lies,...those are true, as well,...it happened,...it had its own context and perspective,...and four, as the body of knowledge grows, how we interpret and apply that knowledge SHOULD and DOES change. It's NOT that "doctors don't know what they are doing" per se, but rather they can only operate on what the body of knowledge is,...knowing full well that another study may come out next month, next year, or ten years from now that modifies their application. It's literally how we learn and modify our own behaviors over time,...every day,...we learn a tiny bit more,...over time, our thoughts and actions are modified,...and hopefully we become better for it. No difference with science.
3. Bruno Bettelheim Bruno Bettelheim - Wikipedia was a man of his time,...as a clinical psychologist, he was well-versed in what the current body of knowledge was with regards to autism. He predated the medical model of autism. To make a blanket statement that Dr. Bettelheim was "wrong" would be an unfair statement,...because he was operating on the psychological model (behavioral) and practiced in an era where the technological advances in medicine were not in place to establish a medical model (anatomy, physiology, and genetics). It would be unfair to judge Dr. Bettelheim by today's psychological standards of practice,...some 50 years of advancements in psychology have occurred. Let me be clear,...both models exist,...both are valid,...within their own context and perspective. Interventions can be made that significantly improve the functioning of autistic individuals,...and in some cases, an individual may "appear" as if they no longer have an autistic condition. To some people, that is all that needs to happen,...a beautiful thing,...respect that. To be also clear, that very same individual if you put them through a battery of imaging and genetic tests,...they would be autistic by the standards of the medical model. So be careful with semantics and how one is describing autisms,...the psychological (behavioral) model,...or the medical model (anatomy, physiology, and genetics).

Matthias tends to catch a lot of resistance to what he says,...perhaps the way he says it,...but understand the reasons for what he says,...he has life experience with this,...there is some truth behind it (via the psychological/behavioral model),...pause,...and try to understand before firing off a response. Take care everyone.

 

[VictorR]

I wish there was a superlike or other feature that allows one to express their sentiment beyond “winner” because this is one of the rare situations where I’ve seen a post that has perfectly captured my sentiments. In the absence a superlike, I’ll paraphrase William Godwin’s comment on Mary Wollstonecraft’s Letters Written in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark in saying

If ever there was a post calculated to make someone in love with its author, this appears to me to be the post.

As someone interested in history, and in social history in particular, I find anachronisms (aside from when intentionally introduced for comedic effect) to be very frustrating, and people who have watched movies, television shows, or who have visited museums with me will find that I have a habit of pointing out things which are “obviously wrong” and “sloppy”. I recognize at times that budget limitations may result in something being substituted, but at least make it so that it’s not annoyingly obvious to anyone familiar with the context.

I wholeheartedly agree that most people just want to make things easy, and use what they’re comfortable with. As a non-conformist, among other things, it is sometimes hard to decide when to speak up, lest one face ridicule.

I remember one time, when working at a museum, that a fellow interpreter was going to fashion a one pound weight to be passed around visitors. Specifically, he was trying to illustrate the weight of a pound of gold, and he was going to use a one-pound bag of sugar as the reference.

Gold has a very high specific gravity, and aside from platinium and tungsten, there isn’t really anything else relatively readily available that is close in heft, but I’m willing to overlook this.

My more serious concern is that gold, as with other precious metals, is measured in troy weights, which is different from the avoirdupois pound used for things in general, such as fruit, or dry goods.

Specifically,
1 troy pound = 12 troy ounces * 31.1 grams = 373 grams
1 avoirdupois pound = 16 avoirdupois ounces * 28.8 grams = 454 grams

So I went into a monologue / infodump trying to explain all this, and at the end, everyone just broke into laughter and I’m pretty sure we ended up with a 454 gram weight.

 

[Tom]

It depends on your goal as a writer but usually, if trying to successfully convey infornation or opinion, you have to consider the audience.

What were the two audiences in question? (not specific just generalized) for the tessa word (I don't know what it is either) and pomegranet.

 

[Jordy]

No one can be knowledgeable on everything, people have to deal with your ignorance on different subjects too.

 

[Darkkin]

No one can be knowledgeable on everything, people have to deal with your ignorance on different subjects too.

I know nothing about sports, but then again I also don't insert my opinion into conversations about sports. What is the outcome or gain by doing so? It is a waste of my time and theirs. I don't have any interest in sports, so thusly I curate where I insert my 'ignorance'. If I am not going to gain something from a conversation or contribute something, I do not engage.

The list of things I don't know, would fill an uncountable number of books, but I do take time to look things up so I have context in a conversation.

 

[Jordy]

I know nothing about sports, but then again I also don't insert my opinion into conversations about sports. What is the outcome or gain by doing so? It is a waste of my time and theirs. I don't have any interest in sports, so thusly I curate where I insert my 'ignorance'. If I am not going to gain something from a conversation or contribute something, I do not engage.

The list of things I don't know, would fill an uncountable number of books, but I do take time to look things up so I have context in a conversation.

Not every conversation has to be on the level of an academic paper where you need to have certainty on the validity of everything you are saying. People are bound to talk about subjects that interests them but aren't fully knowledgeable on, and thats fine. If you are really bothered by people who in conversation are saying things you believe to be not so true, maybe it's because you don't know how to deal with it while keeping the conversation enjoyable.

If someone hears you talk about something they find interesting, they might try to join and talk about the little knowledge on the topic that they have because they think its fun or just socially stimulating, its not always about gaining more knowledge.

 

[Tom]

I wouldn't think those out of place in a poetry writing workshop.

I could see how a techincal term might skip over a few heads (like moi). But it's actually a pretty nice word, sound and meaning wise, now that I know it.

The apple critique/suggestion is well, silly, using the bible as a support reference. Apples are pretty rare in the bible, but pomegranates are all over the place in the Old Testament. The Temples were practically dripping in them in carvings, embroidery, etc,

I had been wondering if it was a matter of people being on different wavelengths (for lack of a better word). But it seems it is knowledge level based after all.

 

[Tom]

About the alienation part, it is somewhat complicated. I think to an extent it often, maybe usually, is an effect of autism. Mismatch can happen with anybody but I think it more likely that autists and neurotypicals do not 'get' each other. This touches on what many describe as being wired differently or the 'wavelength' I mentioned earlier. But it's also true that autists sometimes do not mesh well intellectually.

So it seems part of this is physiological, but not yet clearly understood or defined in our brains. In other words you come out of the box a unicorn, and there is nothing you can do, so far, to change that aspect. You can do things however to counter it. Masking is one. Like sawing off the horn. And another is laboring to translate thoughts to (significant) others and having them translate to you.

Personality can also come into play but that may be more the result of choices you make.

Personally I visualize it as being an outsider who for some reason ends up in a foriegn culture, with no hope of ever returning to his home land. But at their core people are still people and so I will try to adapt and make a life among the Tessalonian tribe. I just wish their main diet wasn't fish.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

but I have little patience for individuals fruitless circular reasoning,

Believe what you want to believe, it's everyone's right as an individual, but when someone keeps making their opinion the center of every conversation, I'm out.

Point blank, using therapy to teach autistics how to pass for normal is a form of masking and social conditioning, something female autistics are exposed to far more, at a much earlier age, which is a contributing factor for lare or misdiagnosis. We have a different set of social expectations and are taught to 'play nice' and with others.

We pass for 'normal' and seem socially competent, confident even. But the cost is colossal. Burnout, depression, anxiety...it is a familiar list.

The neurotype is a chronic factor, much like a chronic illness. You work with what you have and work to reach a maintenance or remission level. I live with autism and a complex, chronic condition. So I do know a little bit about where I'm coming from.

@Darkkin,...thanks for your perspective on this, as I think these points are useful enough to learn from.

1. If one recognizes what "cognitive dissonance" is,...and how to interact with it,...or not,...is a skill in and of itself. However, it can be overcome if you are careful to not put the other person in such an emotional defensive mood that their logic centers shut down. If there is any psychological trick to this,...is allowing the affected person the opportunity to work through it on their own,...and not hammer away at them.

2. Understand, one of the traits often found with autistic individuals is this internal struggle to discuss their "special interests". I find myself doing this all the time,...walking in on a conversation and then trying to somehow change the direction of the conversation to something I am knowledgeable or passionate about. However, as you point out, this is not an effective strategy, as most people didn't really want my opinion, nor were interested in my topic. It leaves both parties frustrated. It took me decades to figure this out.

3. Your last points are understood amongst us on this forum. The biggest problem I see is that,...parents especially,...for a long list of reasons, want their autistic children to "fit in" and be productive, good citizens. Some autistic small children go through a period of "regression", which is quite alarming to parents,...then the child's sensory issues, the physical coordination issues, the developmental delays. It's no wonder the desperation felt by the parents,...and sometimes it takes them down wrong paths in search of answers and help. It's difficult enough with a neurotypical child,...but a neurotypical child will often incorporate much of their socialization and communication skills intuitively,...I dare say instinctually. In contrast, WE have to learn these things through sometimes, rather intense behavioral modification "therapies",...or "discipline" (in my case),...which some of us have gone through, and it was quite traumatic. We can individually debate upon how "useful" any of it was. However, even those that didn't go through all of that,...regardless of how well we seem to "function", are often in a situation where we have to "think" our way though life,...and it is nearly impossible in certain situations to be thinking of more than one thing at a time,...AND have to deal with the sensory issues. It is horribly mentally exhausting, at the very least. Not to mention the psychological effects of "How much masking do I have to do in this situation in order come across as "normal"?" That's a heavy load to put upon someone with an underlying anatomical, physiological, and genetic condition,...and the cost is most often psychological, but can also be physical. I often find myself quite a depressed, unmotivated, tired "lump on a log" the day after work or,...like this past weekend,...a family reunion that lasted 3 days. There is a cost to NOT masking,...there IS a cost to masking,...either way, it costs you something. If you are a female autistic,...whom we now know often presents with not only a higher genetic load than males, a different set of functional imaging results than males,...but you are "blessed" with a higher level of socialization and communication abilities, leaving you open to misdiagnosis and all the horrible "pit falls" associated with that. Well, we have an entire forum full of threads and posts on these topics,...so I will stop right here.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

When my father was young, cars manuals included instructions of how to repair the car...

When I was a kid, Kinder Surprise toys needed to be assembled following the instructions of a picture...

My daugther doesnt know how to search a word in the dictionary...

On top of that society intelectual simplification, Aspies are known for the use of technical/very specific words.

Oh, we are no longer Aspies, that was also simplified.

Nice post.

 

[Thinx]

I can definitely relate. When I try to share what I learned about autism, people tell me I'm wrong because what I learned doesn't conform to the genetic theories of autism people heard from doctors, popular websites, and the scientific community. It's definitely seems to me that the majority of people only seem comfortable accepting what they have been told, not what my experience and that of Bruno Bettelheim (the only person I know of who understood autism well) prove. Since it doesn't align with their established context, it must be wrong.

Well, you and I discussed Bruno Bettelheim before, when you had another name here, because some survivors of his regimes spoke out about his methods, and also because Bettelheim wasn't adequately qualified for his job and lied about his qualifications due to that. He has been rather critiqued and discredited. He gave a different story of his work from what is remembered by some others. He's also dead now, he committed suicide in his 80s, and he was not aware of much relevant research that you mention. It's hard to see what his work proved, in this context.

Your own experience is your own, but may not be easily generalised to others?

The genetic side of autism is not theoretical, it's well established, though so many genes are implicated it gives a good idea of why we are all so different. This doesn't mean you have to believe it of course, but I would question your faith in Bettelheim up against extensive research.

I

 

[Matthias]

There will always be anecdotal 'cures' for everything from demon possession to cancer. Has been since illness existed. It is conjecture, it is opinion, not empirical evidence... I live with autism and a complex, chronic condition...

What would you do if you found something that cured you of autism or the complex, chronic condition you have? Would you tell the world or keep it to yourself because it contradicts what the experts believe?