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Alienation Due to Understanding?

Well, you and I discussed Bruno Bettelheim before, when you had another name here, because some survivors of his regimes spoke out about his methods, and also because Bettelheim wasn't adequately qualified for his job and lied about his qualifications due to that. He has been rather critiqued and discredited. He gave a different story of his work from what is remembered by some others. He's also dead now, he committed suicide in his 80s, and he was not aware of much relevant research that you mention. It's hard to see what his work proved, in this context.

Bettelheim claimed that severely autistic children he treated recovered from autism. Unless he lied, his work proves autism isn't genetic and that people can recover from it. It also suggests that parenting contributes to autism.

Your own experience is your own, but may not be easily generalised to others?

The genetic side of autism is not theoretical, it's well established, though so many genes are implicated it gives a good idea of why we are all so different. This doesn't mean you have to believe it of course, but I would question your faith in Bettelheim up against extensive research.

When parents found a correlation between an environmental factor we're not allowed to mention and autism, they were told "correlation is not causation". The same people now say, "Look, we found a correlation between these genes and autism. This proves autism is genetic." According to their own reasoning, it doesn't.
 
To 'cure' autism you would have to remove and replace an entire nervous system under perfectly controlled conditions from the brain on down.

And I don't want to be 'cured'. I would kindly but firmly tell the salesman where the could store their 'cure'.

I've participated in drug trails for a class of medication known as a PCSK-9, which has since been approved by the FDA and is helping hundreds of people with a similar condition. But that was based on science and oh, yeah...a freaking clinical trail, not someone offering to replace my brain and nervous system.

I understand that you believe a cure is impossible and undesirable but what if your beliefs are wrong and something happened that unexpectedly cured you of autism tomorrow so that you no longer had any autistic traits or other symptoms and felt tremendous joy because of it. Would you tell people or keep it to yourself?
 
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Bettelheim wanted nothing to do with the genetic research Reichler wanted to do. Look at the history of publicly funded asylums at that time. Letchworth, Pennhurst State School...and countless other asylums. This is where these kids were sent to be 'cured'. They ended up being abused and neglected because their homes and parents were too 'dangerous'.

He was obsessed with Freud and Freud, just like Bettelheim has been discredited as a reputable source.

Welcome to the ignore list. This garbage is harmful and barbaric. Bettelheim took a cue from the Nazis and his time in the concentration camps. State mental institutions at the time had very similar conditions. Perfect conditions for torture, unregulated experimentation, and brainwashing.

The polio vaccine, while ultimately successful, was first tested on an eight year old boy at Letchworth Village. When he didn't die. They tested it on 50 others. No clinical trial, no patient or parental consent.

These people were tied to beds for years, lived in filth, had all of their teeth ripped out of their heads...all of this is documented. But this is the way to 'cure' autism.

Research the primary sources like interviews of the people sent to these institutions.

Bettelheim advocated for a positive, warm, sensitive, nurturing environment for children who were neglected by their parents.
 
I feel your pain. I use a lot of less common words in my writing.

My vocabulary was a problem that cropped up between my future wife and I. She's an RN and does a lot of reading so she's no slouch but I used a lot of less common words in my conversation. I'd say voluminous or capacious in describing a handbag (instead of big or large) and she would get angry at me because she thought I was trying to rub her nose in my huge vocabulary. "Nobody speaks like that normally!"

Well... I do. We worked it out. I had sharp corners that over time got worn down a bit and she developed a higher tolerance for my somewhat rounded corners. I guess that's how you make life work.

grammar.jpg
 
Funny story. You can take the dumbing down of language too far.

In the original version of the Pokemon series, US distributors didn't believe US children would "identify" with a rice ball. Not a common American snack. So whenever it was mentioned, they changed the English dub into "jelly donut." Which confused a lot of children because it was obviously a ball of rice and NOT a jelly donut.

I seem to remember there were a lot of other examples of this, just can't remember them right now.
 
I've had college level reading comprehension since second grade, but paradoxically enough, I cannot sound out a word. I'm dysphonentic, so Hooked on Phonics was all Greek to me. Use the word in a sentence and I'll know the word and the meaning. This is why I am a hyperspecific reader and writer. Noun, verb congruences have come up in conversation in the last couple of days.

One reaction was verbatim: Who actually thinks like that? That's geometry with words.

I freely admit to any number of typos in a first draft, but check any of my posts, all of them are edited for grammar and typos. I proofread at least twice.
Teachers were actually angry that I'd learned to read before kindergarten because I hadn't learned to read "the right way." To them, phonics was the way the truth and the light. I'd learned using the whole word approach. I see something, often a sign on the road, and ask what it said and my parents or sister would tell me.

Soon I'd run out of traffic signs and I started on advertising billboards. And I also ask, "What does (word) look like?" And they'd write the word. You can build up a large reading vocabulary that way.
 
A lot of understanding each other (and definitely teaching) seems to come down to the simplification of certain principles, which is an ability that has waved bye-bye to me a long time ago (but NTs seem to excel with). I try to get better with it everyday, because it's nice to be able to communicate with NTs, but it's hard work.

Simply put, somebody who deeply understands concepts should be able to teach them to a child (as in 'explain like I'm 5'), a beginner, student, etc. Me, on the other hand, jumps straight to the jargon, talking over peoples' heads and assuming they have prerequisite knowledge of certain things they don't. Typically this is in response to questions I'm asked, not just random infodumps, but conversely it makes me look like the idiot because I haven't really translated them into the type of digestible material that NTs are used to.

I see it as a skill that a lot of us ND's don't have. We can develop it of course, but it doesn't come naturally.
 
I think it's important to regularly read high-quality works written by extraordinarily influential and intelligent thinkers in order to put your own intelligence in perspective, possibly preventing your pretention from boiling over and oozing onto the floor like a poison.
 
Bettelheim claimed that severely autistic children he treated recovered from autism. Unless he lied, his work proves autism isn't genetic and that people can recover from it. It also suggests that parenting contributes to autism.



When parents found a correlation between an environmental factor we're not allowed to mention and autism, they were told "correlation is not causation". The same people now say, "Look, we found a correlation between these genes and autism. This proves autism is genetic." According to their own reasoning, it doesn't.
Claims aren't science. They are only claims. Expert opinion counts for almost nothing in science.

You don't take a few anecdotes which may or may not be accurately remembered and may or may not be related to what they think might have caused something that may or may not have really happened and call it science.

The notion that parents "found a correlation" isn't true. Finding a correlation requires an experiment or at least some statistical research. There was no experiment. There was no research. Somebody made up a graph with fabricated data. They invented a proposed mechanism of action that explains absolutely nothing with no experimental backup.

People in profound pain are being given false hope and a big bad to hate on. Thimerisol all over again.
 
First day of kindergarten for me, I was on a swing reader Ozma of Oz (those wheelers were creepier than those apple throwing trees in the Wizard of Oz), one of the playground supervisors came over took my book and told me I didn't know how to read it.

It was brand new, a gift from my mom because I had finished the first two with my grandmas over the summer. I was straight up mad, so I spoke up. I told her open to a page and let me read it out loud. She was flabbergasted, but opened to the chapter Purple, Green, and Gold wherein Billina the hen outwits the Gnome King at his own game. I proved my point, got my book back, and was promptly exiled to the library. (There were no enrichment or gifted programs at our school at the time.)

Our librarian, bless her, wasn't fazed when I asked her about the story about a red dragon, a black arrow, and a hole, not a slimmy, dirty hole. She knew the story I had been asking my mom about for months after having seen the animated movie. It was The Hobbit, first book I ever borrowed from the school library.
Which reminds me of one time I was subbing for a class of elementary school auties. There was one kid who could tell me all the details of sharks and their anatomy. Another kid was talking all about dinosaurs. From what I could tell, he really knew his stuff. The teacher's aide said, "Don't mind him. He's just parroting what he heard. he doesn't really understand any of it.'

If I could have a conversation about dinosaurs with him, I think the understood what he was talking about.
 
Bettelheim claimed that severely autistic children he treated recovered from autism. Unless he lied, his work proves autism isn't genetic and that people can recover from it. It also suggests that parenting contributes to autism.



When parents found a correlation between an environmental factor we're not allowed to mention and autism, they were told "correlation is not causation". The same people now say, "Look, we found a correlation between these genes and autism. This proves autism is genetic." According to their own reasoning, it doesn't.
We do already know that Bettelheim lied and misrepresented his work. However, also he may well have genuinely believed autism was curable. In a previous discussion a while back we discussed how Bettelheims patients were not necessarily autistic, despite he may have given them that label. He wasnt reliable in his accounts of treatments, so reading his work, which I have done too, doesnt give you truths, only Bettelheims claims of success with patients. He reinvented himself, and sadly wasnt who he claimed. He misled you, sorry this is hard to acknowledge for you. But this all quite well known now, anyone can check where information comes from, and factor it in, but maybe your thinking style is making that hard.
Bettelheim claimed that severely autistic children he treated recovered from autism. Unless he lied, his work proves autism isn't genetic and that people can recover from it. It also suggests that parenting contributes to autism.



When parents found a correlation between an environmental factor we're not allowed to mention and autism, they were told "correlation is not causation". The same people now say, "Look, we found a correlation between these genes and autism. This proves autism is genetic." According to their own reasoning, it doesn't.
Being wrong once doesn't mean you are always wrong. But the understanding of genetic causes are the product of research, not parents saying things. Genetics isn't currently thought to be the total cause. But it's a complex contributor.
 
I know I'm too dumb to talk to people about intelligent stuff that's outside of my realm of knowledge lol. So in most social situations, I just talk about fun, lighthearted or inane topics, like I love to do in the off-topic threads and hobbies and interests threads.

The things that I'm knowledgeable about, like my career, I am very knowledgeable about and even an expert in some cases. But that's only a handful of things. I love to learn and I read and research things constantly. But I don't think I'll ever be like Aspie stereotype intelligent lol, I can't even memorize a license plate, do basic algebra, or read piano music.

People have told me that having the childlike tendency to be fascinated by kind of regular things and impressed by learning new stuff, is part of what makes me "cute" lol. I'm fine with being cute, I don't have to be anything more impressive than that :)
 
Sorry @Darkkin , but you had written several responses about Bettelheim so I didn't realise it would be a problem, actually I thought you would feel supported. I guess I must have misunderstood, but sometimes people do respond to threads in ways the OP didn't forsee, I hope you won't feel you need to leave due to that.
 
s work. However, also he may well have genuinely believed autism was curable. In a previous discussion a while back we discussed how Bettelheims patients were not necessarily autistic, despite he may have given them that label. He wasnt reliable in his accounts of treatments, so reading his work, which I have done too, doesnt give you truths, only Bettelheims claims of success with patients. He reinvented himself, and sadly wasnt who he claimed. He misled you, sorry th
cinated by kind of regular things and impressed by learning new stuff, is part of what makes me "cute" lol. I'm fine w
As long as you enjoy talking about fun lighthearted things and like to learn new things, you are a fortunate person.
 
Learning is one of the greatest sources of purpose and worth. It doesn't have to end with a perfect product because it is the journey that counts.

I'm a champion of sucking at things, so it makes it easy to try. Learned how to rewire a lamp from a YouTube video and didn't burn the house down doing it and more about the inner workings of a dryer than I needed to know.

Anyone else ever streamed video game play throughs on YouTube because you want to find out how the game ends, but you keep falling off the cliff (and don't have the skill or patience to beat it)?

(Zelda: Twilight Princess)

There is also absolutely nothing wrong with being fascinated by simple things. I love fireflies, milkweed seeds, and picture books.

Climbing the bluff on a windy fall day, just to see how high the maple leaves can go. You're really high up, but firmly on the ground and can be freaking out while completely safe, just because you are focused on the leaves.

It's not logical, but it makes sense.
"Geometry with words"... sounds like something we need a lot more in this world. A lot of human problems would simply resolve themselves..
 
The congruence of language is profoundly alien to the majority of people because it is a 'glass rabbit' idea.

(A glass rabbit idea being defined as an atypical association of disparate thoughts, items, or topics that when combined become a surprisingly effective or comprehensive idea or theme. Because reasonably speaking who is going to combined Triangle Congruence Theorems with the effectiveness of noun, verb pairings?)

Any time, every time I write or talk, this is what happens. Ideas too fast and too deep that those listening aren't even aware of the flood that just rolled over them. That damned bell curve, so far ahead it has become a circling round. Ahead and closing on the opening edge only to meet and pass the majority at the crest of the rise, a chasm as deep as the doubled height of the crest.

It isn't arrogance or Dunning-Kruger looming large, it is why silence is safer. Unicorn at the river of Occam's Razor. Complex concepts, grasped with stunning ease, words pulled from the ether and woven into improbable, impossible ideas that are as vivid as reality itself. But reality itself is still perfectly clear. Logic and imagination at work in equal parts. This is the dichotomy of my unicorn and Occam's Razor, there is no middle ground and in order to keep pace one needs a unicorn of their own because even the zebras get lost along the way.

e.g.

More was needed…and pray at least…
one or more of the Tigers would heed
the fading of the brightness of night
and seek out the wily Macaque Tribe
while Donkeys reveled in pyrite crowns

They needed one who could not speak,
the one who could not hear, only feel,
who spoke the language of dreams,
deaf and dumb and illiterate and so…

impossibly brilliant and fearsome

a girl of glass, the white selkie child,
Serendipity Cassandra, the Bright…
known to one and all as Toxic White


It is almost as if I speak in tongues of kenning.

kenning, concise compound or figurative phrase replacing a common noun, especially in Old Germanic, Old Norse, and Old English poetry. A kenning is commonly a simple stock compound such as “whale-path” or “swan road” for “sea,” “God's beacon” for “sun,” or “ring-giver” for “king.”

(www.britannica.com)


I cross reference spellings, sources, definitions, historical usages, literary references, etc...just to make sure I'm as clear as I can be on things if others decide to run searches of their own. Allegories are the context I use to translate the world around me. It is a living matrix that doesn't make any sense, so dense amd interconnected it sometimes feels like it is all I am. And no one understands it.

Dial it back, dial it down. All day, every day. No one sees, no one hears simply because they do not understand things like tessellations and Occam's Razor being the most concise way to describe an idea. The concepts especially in conjunction are too complex, but still I continue along the infinitely twining duality of the helix...

While the screaming reality is that 54% of Americans read at a 6th grade comprehension level. This is the society I deal with daily. And it is not just my autism that is the cause of this sense of isolation or irritation when one does encounter people, it is my comprehension level itself. I don't know how to lower my bar, or dampen my consciousness to the point I do not ever consciously recall being at.

This is on a site specifically geared toward writers, people who are supposedly proficient with the use of language are commenting that a word is inconvenient or uncomfortable.

It should also be noted that there are many on this forum who are awesome to interact with and it is an enriching experience. You folks and this forum are truly appreciated. No one here tells me to dial it back.

Your ego may be pathological. Your use of language is esoteric and uncommunicative.
 
Read that post aloud and consider how it would make you feel if someone on the street walked up and said it point blank to your face...

It would have no meaning without context. I would assume the person was either mentally ill or on drugs.
 
Then why did you say it to me? How was that reasonable in any context?

I don't know how to explain that other than to refer you to the post in question. I suppose I can quote specific sentences that were most elitist, if you'd like.
 
Darn, now I'll never find out how doctors could possibly have anything to do with this.
 

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