As an NT How do I know when I should ask out my (potentially Aspie) crush?

[mylife2023]

The typical Aspie is born with a deficit in the kind of communication skills necessary to operate comfortably in this context.

How did you ",meet"?
If it was via a dating app, the context supports an Aspie-friendly communication style.
If it's a business relationship, with occasional F2F contact, I'd expect it to be more difficult.

If a dating app - I know women are generally approached, or induce an approach by relatively simple means.
Forget that. Just go with a structure like:
"I enjoyed our previous interaction. I'd like to get together again. Can we have dinner together some time soon?".

Just that - tune for style of course, but don't fill it up with junk, especially something that simulates traditional M/F communication patterns. Irrational communication pushes Aspies away.

If you can, try to make both a yes and a no answer easy. Of course I don't know your crush, but personally I'm quite likely to ghost someone if they craft a push-style "sales pitch" (only a "yes" is easy).

If e.g. you're looking to build on an existing a business relationship, I think you'll need to establish the context first.

And to answer your question, we met when I was caring for his father. I’ve not spent more than probably an hour and a half total , with him in person.

 

[Tom]

You realize, if you did manage to date, he is going to be the same more or less in the relationship as he is prior.

 

[mylife2023]

You realize, if you did manage to date, he is going to be the same more or less in the relationship as he is prior.

Yes, I do. I just want to learn how to communicate with him (since we don't see one another often) in such a way that I'm not "too much". Does that make sense? I really do want to give this a try.

I am trying to adjust my thinking so as not to expect NT answers from him. I'm just having a hard time being direct, I guess?

I've thought about just saying, " I'm finding it diffucult to get to know you very well, through out chat conversations" (takes the pressure off of him, because I know he doesn't seem to really know or maybe doesn't enjoy texting?"

"I really, really want to get to know you and spend time with you. Would you wanna go out and grab some food sometime and talk?"

OR

" I would really love to come run errands with you on Saturday and go to the dog park with you. Would that be something you'd wanna do?" (this way his routines aren't messed up.)

Thoughts on this approach?

 

[Uppity Creek]

We're each unique; I can only offer my experiences. When dating, or spending time with someone I had a crush on, I essentially had to be conked on the skull in order to convince me she was really interested...once that had happened, though, anytime we were together (or on the phone, etc.) it would tend to be her that ended the conversation. I often remember one "crush" who would have to lead me to the door sometime after midnight. I only mention that to wonder about the way he's ending the texts. It could very well be, of course, that he literally is just too tired.

Regarding going out to dinner, were it me in his shoes, I would gladly pick up the tab, but I would prepare to at least go Dutch. It may depend on just where he is socially. It's possible he may not 'get' the notion of picking up the tab. There really isn't anything wrong with just bringing it up in the conversation. That's typically one of those things that feels awkward, but if you don't bring it up, both of you may spend the whole time thinking about it. I would suggest just approaching him that you'll go Dutch, and if he offers to pick it up, great. If he demands you pay, well, you just learned a very important fact about who he is, and you can use that to help determine if this is the man you really want to pursue.

 

[mylife2023]

We're each unique; I can only offer my experiences. When dating, or spending time with someone I had a crush on, I essentially had to be conked on the skull in order to convince me she was really interested...once that had happened, though, anytime we were together (or on the phone, etc.) it would tend to be her that ended the conversation. I often remember one "crush" who would have to lead me to the door sometime after midnight. I only mention that to wonder about the way he's ending the texts. It could very well be, of course, that he literally is just too tired.

Regarding going out to dinner, were it me in his shoes, I would gladly pick up the tab, but I would prepare to at least go Dutch. It may depend on just where he is socially. It's possible he may not 'get' the notion of picking up the tab. There really isn't anything wrong with just bringing it up in the conversation. That's typically one of those things that feels awkward, but if you don't bring it up, both of you may spend the whole time thinking about it. I would suggest just approaching him that you'll go Dutch, and if he offers to pick it up, great. If he demands you pay, well, you just learned a very important fact about who he is, and you can use that to help determine if this is the man you really want to pursue.

Thank you for that. He was tired and had given me a little insight into his day and it was more stressful than usual. I guess my NT brain just sees this as a potential new relationship and I so want to get to know more about him and have those conversations. It just doesn't seem like it's in the forefront of his mind...(yes I know that's NT thinking.).

 

[mylife2023]

As somebody who was very shy and rejection averse, it was very hard for me to make the first move and I had great anxiety being vulnerable to a woman's judgement. Hence, I did not start dating until I was 26 when small successes in other parts of my life gave me a little confidence in myself. When I met my spouse I made the first move because it was innocently transactional; ride sharing for a road trip to a Sierra Club outing we individually signed up for. Little did I appreciate the intensity of such a trip and we were falling for each other. She had been hoping to meet a man who would enjoy being her companion on outdoor activities she enjoyed and ditto for me. When I professed to her, my mind panicked, yet she was so accepting, kind, and patient with me that I was disarmed and recognized she was the person for me.

So, I understand how hard it is to be vulnerable to someone and have to agree with @Judge that sometimes one must risk a leap of faith to enter a relationship. Being ASD, you may need to walk that tightrope of being direct while letting him have a little room to help him engage. Many of us on the spectrum have had such social delays (and in my case with relational trauma from feeling isolated) that we were inexperienced with women. That may make interacting harder for you. A good discussion is here; Inside The Mind Of Guys Who Are Shy And Inexperienced With Women | www.succeedsocially.com

From your concerns I think the guy will be fortunate to be in a relationship with you.

That article was AMAZING!!

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

That article was AMAZING!!

I was like that. The thing that snapped me out of that was the recognition that I believed negative tropes about women yet was too cowardly to ask them out and demonstrate what a gentleman is like. I really enjoyed the few dates I had and a relationship. That taught me to be attentive and while I was a virgin when I met my spouse she did not think I was inexperienced because I was the first man to care about her pleasure. When we ASD are accepted, we are devoted.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Sometimes when I feel it’s going well he will just end it with “have a good night or “ I’m tired and going to bed. It feels like a blow off but sometimes he’s very engaged.

He may feel the need to recharge. Even just texting can be socially draining. Learn signals like that when he wants some alone time

 

[mylife2023]

It's really interesting, how I have spent a lot of time writing down ways I might ask him out and the more time I spend on here, the more I decide to delete from what I write. I didn't realize how utterly wordy I can be and how that may possibly turn him off.

 

[mylife2023]

He may feel the need to recharge. Even just texting can be socially draining. Learn signals like that when he wants some alone time

I've thought of that as well, and he apparently needs a lot. I tend to be that way as well.

 

[Alexej]

One suggestion is to be clear in the communication.
Making assumptions is so natural, but is often so harmful to the relationship. I am thinking of the questions of who pays for example. Bring it to the conversation, talk about it and then move on to someting else.

 

[Hypnalis]

Can you give me more examples of what irrational communication is from an Aspies perspective? I’ve tried adjusting my texts but maybe I’m pushing him away with texting.

Sometimes when I feel it’s going well he will just end it with “have a good night or “ I’m tired and going to bed. It feels like a blow off but sometimes he’s very engaged.

This and some of the messages on page two (e.g. 23, 29 (if there are no deletions)) suggest you're starting to see an outline of NT-ND communications issues.
I've tried a few times to address this with different people, but ultimately to no effect, so now I just push gently where there might be a result - you may be an example of that approach working

Generally I wouldn't try to contextualize my earlier post, but this is a good time - Saturday morning coffee, snow on the ground outside, and this is an excellent "displacement activity" for avoiding doing something productive like cleaning/tidying

So some general comments about some of the complexities of NT-standard M/F communication while dealing with something fundamentally simple: switching from friendly interactions to a potential "romantic" relationship.

* It's wildly asymmetrical. Women "never" (almost never) make the first move, and while they seem to imagine their "handkerchief-dropping" signals are a first move, they're generally not, even for NT's. For ND's they're probably not even visible.
* So NT men are forced to approach, and they get rejected a lot. When the balance shifts, that game "ages out", and plenty of men just stop playing, because at a certain point they don't have to.
This isn't new BTW - it was equally true 50 years ago.
* The asymmetry provides many opportunities to "game the system". Not just by women, but in general they have more opportunities than men. That is correctly perceived as deliberate lying by ND males. We don't like it, but we can't do anything about it (see below)

So how does this affect Aspies?

Aspies have a natural deficit in "reading" non-verbal, and contextually- and referentially-dependent written/verbal communication. For the topic we're discussing, the majority of the open communication is "counter-factual", and the odds of the non-verbal part being honest is well below the threshold at which many Aspies will stop trying to interpret it.
For example, when I see what I call an "airline hostess smile" I just tune out and disengage. It's like seeing a headline in this pattern:
"Is <something counter-intuitive> actually true and about to affect everything?"
The "Is" at the start and the question mark prove the answer is no. Don't click the link

This makes Aspies less effective at the "game" than an otherwise equivalent NT. It affects different people different ways of course - there are few general rules about Aspies.
But it definitely means we're more inclined to drop out of the game than NT's, and that in general we have a significantly higher "re-entry threshold" later on than NT's.
If you reflect on the advice everyone here has given, we're essentially trying to get you past the "automatic rejection" stage.


Here's a nice Gary Larsen cartoon to wrap up the introduction

The point, which is quite hard to convey to both NT's and ND's, is that fully bridging the communications gap requires the NT to understand the way they communicate almost perfectly.

We want you to remove all the counter-factual stuff. We can see it, but we can't process it out (or at best it's very hard work).
You can't see it because it's NT-normal - everyone else around you does the same things, which confirms (genuinely proves) that your approach is the right one in your micro-culture.

This isn't a "problem" for NTs, and while ND's can "see" it, and it does affect us negatively, we lack the skills to address it.

So, after all that, I hope you'll see that my short post earlier is just an elaboration in what had already been said (correctly) by others: be honest; be direct; be concise; simplify
I'll add two more: choose clarity over emotional overtones; do not include anything to protect your ego - you need to accept (embrace) the risk and "cost" of rejection.
Those two are likely to change the semantics for an ND reader/hearer in ways you haven't anticipated.

Another personal example: "proactively defensive" content (the last ;point) is a "no go" signal for me in almost every context. Even if it comes up well after initial contact. It indicates a categorical failure in mutual understanding, which is not a good foundation for a personal relationship.


There's one thing still open - the initial switch from neutral to personal, which seems to be blocking you.

One simple suggestion: you have two steps to navigate, not one: the primary switch, and "neutral to 'possibly romantic'"
You seem to be conflating the two. It appears to me that any communication that achieved this would be non-compliant with the conciseness directive.

Try drafting two texts to completion, one for each phase, assuming they'll start different discussions in sequence with a delay between them.
Then go back and reassess.
The split may not be the best plan, but separating the messages may (should) help anyway.

Lastly - I'm not sure I'm the right person to discuss with you whether your crush is likely to be open to this kind of relationship. You may ask if you like.

 

[mylife2023]

Lots of great advice and info in your post, thank you!

I have drafted those texts and I do find that with him, I can’t say as much in a single text with him, as I can say with my NT friends. For instance. If I said “ how are your mom and dad feeling? My daughter had a stomach flu last weekend. She’s better this week. She had to go to the sr though,”

He only addresses the question and never responds at all to the rest of the text. Is this normal? At first I thought he was just self absorbed.


He also never responds to any story I tell him, even if it’s relative to the conversation. He does respond a lot and more emotionally to stories about my 2 year old granddaughter. He has a daughter whom he adores.

He responds a lot and thoroughly to any questions regarding his sweet dog. He will go on forever about her. Which I now know her role in his life and after researching , it makes a lot of sense.

Now, please critique this post as an Aspie and tell me if it was difficult or if there were things I should’ve said differently or just left out.

I really want to understand, because I am having a hard time keeping our texting conversations going. It's not that I don't have plenty to say, I just don't want him to feel like I'm interviewing him! And he rarely asks me questions about anything. I've counted two in the last 2 1/2 months of texting him and three "in person" questions in the 7 months I've known him.

 

[Hypnalis]

Learning to simulate ND-communication style(s) wouldn't mean you understand us well, or that you can manage difficult topics.

Two ways to look at it, both useful and accurate in context, but not complete.

* It's much easier to read a foreign Latin language than it is to speak it. You have more time when reading, so you can use your passive vocabulary effectively.
* When you meet a person from a different culture who speaks your language very well, you still get occasional miscommunication because of distinct underlying assumptions and viewpoints due to cultural differences.
The other person, who knows the nature and scale of the gap, handles these better. The "local" may never understand the gap, because they don't need to - and they will make mistakes, and miss opportunities, without ever knowing it.

This is, in part, a long way to say I won't critique your posts. I'm happy if someone else does of course, but it goes a little against my principles to do so.

To put this in context: you're quite close to another of my personal "disengagement rules". Naturally I can't help you to actually break it.

 

[mylife2023]

I think I understand that. Being a writer, and I think a good communicator, of what it is I want people to know about me, makes this very challenging. It's made me very aware that not all people can necessarily hear what it is I want them to know. It's fascinating that we can all speak english, but it can still be a foreign language to english speaking people?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I would like to add that while we may not get social signaling, we may be perceptive when it comes to interpersonal behaviors. If he likes you he may be thinking far ahead, depending on his past relationship experiences and social maturity. The thing I always hoped for, never playing the dating game well, was hoping that a woman would see in me somebody who was worth taking the time to know me beyond first impressions. Just being with him may satisfy that, but the important thing for you to establish in his mind is a sense of acceptance. You can do that by accepting that some awkward behavior will occur and not pointing out when he misses social signaling. I knew my first relationship was in trouble when the woman questioned my selection of clothing, disliked my introversion in social settings or complained about my verbal style.

I told you about meeting my spouse and on that road trip we had some moments that completely defused any interpersonal tension or expectations. One evening at Mammoth Cave we were thinking of walking to the visitor center from our camp. She started cutting directly through the woods. When I caught up I gently reminded her about Ticks in the underbrush of Kentucky. Well, the next day was us traveling and car problems cropped up (a cracked distributor rotor) and I would stop to make adjustments to let us hobble to a parts store. Everytime I would stop she would find a tick or two embedded in her legs. I dutifully removed them, joking about getting to know somebody so intimately. It was an adventure and I was happy that we were becoming friends. Her good natured acceptance of things convinced me to go way out of my comfort zone the next day to be vulnerable with her.

 

[mylife2023]

I would like to add that while we may not get social signaling, we may be perceptive when it comes to interpersonal behaviors. If he likes you he may be thinking far ahead, depending on his past relationship experiences and social maturity. The thing I always hoped for, never playing the dating game well, was hoping that a woman would see in me somebody who will take the time to know me beyond first impressions. Just being with him may satisfy that, but the important thing for you to establish in his mind is a sense of acceptance. You can do that by accepting that some awkward behavior will occur and not pointing out when he misses social signaling. I knew my first relationship was in trouble when the woman questioned my selection of clothing, #isliked my introversion innsocial settings or complained about my verbal style.

I told you about meeting my spouse and on that road trip we had some moments that completely defused any interpersonal tension or expectations. One evening at Mammoth Cave we were thinking of walking to the visitor center from our camp. She started cutting directly through the woods. When I caught up I gently reminded her about Ticks in the underbrush of Kentucky. Well, the next day was us traveling and car problems cropped up (a cracked distributor rotor) I would stop to make adjustments to let us hobble to a parts store. Everytime I would stop she would find a tick or two embedded in her legs. I dutifully removed them, joking about getting to know somebody so intimately. It was an adventure and I was happy that we were becoming friends. Her good natured acceptance of things convinced me to go way out of my comfort zone the next day to be vulnerable with her.

Oh my..... I would don't think I could ever audibly question someone about what they were wearing unless it was drastically inappropriate! My problem seems to be just figuring out HOW to get to know him since he's so shy or unwilling/able to put forth much effort.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Oh my..... I would don't think I could ever audibly question someone about what they were wearing unless it was drastically inappropriate! My problem seems to be just figuring out HOW to get to know him since he's so shy or unwilling/able to put forth much effort.

Maybe not unwilling, but instead unable as he may be unsure of himself. I was never unwilling to connect with a woman, but I was unable to engage myself, a combination of poor self esteem, the inability to understand if there was any interest in me, and the anxiety of being judged. It took a lot of work to mature and put myself out when all my stupid thinking never resulted in any woman approaching me. I decided that no woman is going to see what an interesting person I am until I could advocate for myself and approach them. You are in a different situation and i hope you will approach your crush, simply, clearly, and with kindness. I hope he will react positively. If a woman had acted to approach me after some nice back and forth, I would have been flattered and immediately interested in her as a friend and potential partner. I would have worked to make her comfortable with me (as I did with my future spouse).

 

[Rodafina]

I understand you want to meet him where he’s at as you said, but you must figure out a way to be your authentic self and see where that goes. I don’t know how to say this nicely, but it is almost feeling like manipulation. There’s so much thought going into how to elicit the response you want from him. Just be yourself. Just say exactly what’s on your mind, autistic or not, that seems like the right thing to do.

Don’t you remember the story of Cyrano de Bergerac? Or the Steve Martin remake, Roxanne?

 

[mylife2023]

I understand you want to meet him where he’s at as you said, but you must figure out a way to be your authentic self and see where that goes. I don’t know how to say this nicely, but it is almost feeling like manipulation. There’s so much thought going into how to elicit the response you want from him. Just be yourself. Just say exactly what’s on your mind, autistic or not, that seems like the right thing to do.

Don’t you remember the story of Cyrano de Bergerac? Or the Steve Martin remake, Roxanne?

No, it’s not that. I just feel like I am wordy and that most of what Im saying may be a turn off. Im trying to learn how to communicate with him so that I don’t exhaust him, if that’s happening.

I don’t know…. Maybe I am trying too hard. I do know that since I’ve taken some of the advice here, he has responded more easily to my texts. So I’m very grateful for that.