Athiests: What do you believe?

[Progster]

@Monachopia @sidd851 Thank you. I like the Carl Sagan quote. The thought that there is no suffering either before or after is a consolation, and helps... though don't know if that thought alone will allow me to come to terms with it.

Another thought that helps me somewhat is that so many old people facing death are often so peaceful and accepting and seem have come to terms with it, and don't seem scared. I have often wondered, how can they not be scared? Perhaps the mind, in the final hours, has a mechanism to protect itself from the horror. Perhaps the reason why I find the idea so overwhelmingly terrifying now is because it's not my time, it's too early, and when my time comes, I'll be ready and able to accept it. Perhaps it is more easy to accept or even desirable when the body is frail and deteriorating in old age, or as the consequence of an illness.

 

[Jojo_LB]

I was raised Roman Catholic. My people are extremely religious, which is something I could never understand. My mother tried very hard to instill a strong sense of the religion in me, but I was always such a skeptic, even as a small child. Just one of the many things my family thought was so weird about me. I stopped believing in Santa and all that stuff when I was very young, no one ever had to have that talk with me in which they revealed to me "the truth."

I just thought that adult humans have this weird attitude around stuff like that, telling me they're there, but not actually proving to me that they are. Therefore, they must not exist but want us to believe they do for some reasons I will never know.

Something similar happened to me with religion. I was 11 when I started questioning organized religion and a god. I had a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings about it over the years. I became agnostic when I was around 18. I took the label atheist a couple of years after that.

Today, I still take the label atheist, but seeing the term agnostic atheist, that sort of makes sense for me too. It probably is a lot more fitting for me, because while I do not believe in, or see a personal need for, a higher being, I will not argue with anyone who does. And I do concede I can't prove that there is no higher being, much like it can't be proven that there is one. But I have enough knowledge and evidence that is satisfying enough for me to call myself an atheist.

 

[sidd851]

@Monachopia @sidd851 Thank you. I like the Carl Sagan quote. The thought that there is no suffering either before or after is a consolation, and helps... though don't know if that thought alone will allow me to come to terms with it.

Another thought that helps me somewhat is that so many old people facing death are often so peaceful and accepting and seem have come to terms with it, and don't seem scared. I have often wondered, how can they not be scared? Perhaps the mind, in the final hours, has a mechanism to protect itself from the horror. Perhaps the reason why I find the idea so overwhelmingly terrifying now is because it's not my time, it's too early, and when my time comes, I'll be ready and able to accept it. Perhaps it is more easy to accept or even desirable when the body is frail and deteriorating in old age, or as the consequence of an illness.

I also remind myself that one cannot have awareness of not having awareness---
It is only a few moments of fear, if that...

 

[Monachopia]

Thank you. I like the Carl Sagan quote. The thought that there is no suffering either before or after is a consolation, and helps... though don't know if that thought alone will allow me to come to terms with it.

Another thought that helps me somewhat is that so many old people facing death are often so peaceful and accepting and seem have come to terms with it, and don't seem scared. I have often wondered, how can they not be scared? Perhaps the mind, in the final hours, has a mechanism to protect itself from the horror. Perhaps the reason why I find the idea so overwhelmingly terrifying now is because it's not my time, it's too early, and when my time comes, I'll be ready and able to accept it. Perhaps it is more easy to accept or even desirable when the body is frail and deteriorating in old age, or as the consequence of an illness.

It took quite a few years of processing, to not freeze in sheer terror at the thought. When I was in my teens, I did understand that there would be nothing after death, but I didn't truly fathom the full concept as I do now. When I tried to overdose at 17, I knew I wanted to fall asleep and never wake up again. Slip into the black. But now I wouldn't dream of doing it, I still have so much to see, so much to learn. Even though it is all ultimately pointless - all this knowledge and these experiences... while I am still here, I figure, I may as well have them.

Your observation of the elderly is correct, they don't seem to fear it as much as we do. I read a study that notes there is a change in the brains of those individuals that are dying. There is a process that prepares us all for it when the time comes - so long as it is not completely sudden... But even then, the brain has so many mechanisms in place to deal with potential immediate pain. From the few first hand accounts that I've read, for example, of individuals being shot, quite often there is no realisation on the part of the individual that it is what happened. Our brains protect us from the worst and that is also comforting. I think what I am most afraid of is pain, and knowing that there would not be anywhere near as much as I think, helps too ... in some weird, twisted way.

Ultimately, religion is a coping mechanism to deal with the inevitable. A form of opiate of the soul, as it were. Give meaning where there is none and to give false hope that we are eternal. Having said this, I would never be disrespectful to someone who is a believer. Everyone is free to deal with life as they wish and I keep my opinions to myself.

@sidd851 I saw your edit, thank you! You're very kind. <3

 

[sidd851]

"Take my love, take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me.

Take me out to the black
Tell them I ain't comin' back
Burn the land and boil the sea
You can't take the sky from me.

There's no place, I can be,
Since I've found Serenity.

And you can't take the sky from me."

--- Joss Whedon

Spoiler

source: Firefly Lyrics - Theme Song Lyrics

 

[Progster]

It took quite a few years of processing, to not freeze in sheer terror at the thought. When I was in my teens, I did understand that there would be nothing after death, but I didn't truly fathom the full concept as I do now. When I tried to overdose at 17, I knew I wanted to fall asleep and never wake up again. Slip into the black. But now I wouldn't dream of doing it, I still have so much to see, so much to learn. Even though it is all ultimately pointless - all this knowledge and these experiences... while I am still here, I figure, I may as well have them.

Your observation of the elderly is correct, they don't seem to fear it as much as we do. I read a study that notes there is a change in the brains of those individuals that are dying. There is a process that prepares us all for it when the time comes - so long as it is not completely sudden... But even then, the brain has so many mechanisms in place to deal with potential immediate pain. From the few first hand accounts that I've read, for example, of individuals being shot, quite often there is no realisation on the part of the individual that it is what happened. Our brains protect us from the worst and that is also comforting. I think what I am most afraid of is pain, and knowing that there would not be anywhere near as much as I think, helps too ... in some weird, twisted way.

Ultimately, religion is a coping mechanism to deal with the inevitable. A form of opiate of the soul, as it were. Give meaning where there is none and to give false hope that we are eternal. Having said this, I would never be disrespectful to someone who is a believer. Everyone is free to deal with life as they wish and I keep my opinions to myself.

@sidd851 I saw your edit, thank you! You're very kind. <3

That was a very helpful and comforting post, thank you.

As for pain, there needn't be, pain can be managed. For me, it is the nothingness that is so terrifying, and also the loss of control when it happens.

 

[Jojo_LB]

the loss of control when it happens.

This is one of my greatest fears. Just loss of control of my body, my mind, or not being able to stop the unwanted inevitable from happening. I can't always control when something happens.

This is why I'm always so reluctant to step outside of my inner world. I can control almost everything in there. Once I step out of it, I lose the ability to control a lot of things.

I hope that as I get older and ever closer to facing mortality, I can come to terms with this.

 

[Matthew Behnke]

I believe in some of the view points and aspects of atheism, I guess you can call me a non-church going LDS, I don't like to go to Church because its a huge weight on your life and your health, which is why I am not interested in religion, plus with life as a struggle, its not good for you when your young.

 

[Monachopia]

As for pain, there needn't be, pain can be managed. For me, it is the nothingness that is so terrifying, and also the loss of control when it happens.

The nothingness is what got me first too... Maybe what got me thinking about it was the book of the Neverending Story that I read quite some time ago - a silly tangent, but unlike the movie, the book is quite dark and talks about "The Nothing" that was swallowing up the world, almost like we are talking about death here. The absence of all and anything. A complete void. For a children's book it's quite deep as most evil entities have a face and a reason to exist/do what they do. This was just unavoidable, inescapable erasure of being.

You are right to mention control. We all have explicit desire to control everything around us to the smallest detail, yet, realistically, we can't. I dread to think about it really... But as the speech in the video I linked says: "But… actually… the whole problem… is that there really is no other problem, for human beings, then to... go over that waterfall when it comes." I guess... in this way, treat loss of control as a waterfall. It is inevitable that you will come across it and will have to go over. Accept that it will happen and do the best you can for yourself and others, as you do. Find coping mechanisms for when the unexpected happens. Prepare, so that at the very least, those situations aren't a complete shock. That's all I can suggest really, as you've got me thinking about this too now...

 

[sidd851]

This is one of my greatest fears. Just loss of control of my body, my mind, or not being able to stop the unwanted inevitable from happening. I can't always control when something happens.

This is why I'm always so reluctant to step outside of my inner world. I can control almost everything in there. Once I step out of it, I lose the ability to control a lot of things.

I hope that as I get older and ever closer to facing mortality, I can come to terms with this.

The Tibetans believe that your mind-state, as you "pass away", determines the circumstance and kamma of your rebirth.

Hence, they practice their whole lives in order to experience equanimity at their death to create the smallest kammic footprint possible.

That is the indigenous bon influence on Tibetan buddhism.

Psychologically, practically, it is a self-validating practice, and an incredibly rewarding one.

The collateral effect is the equanimity that begins to manifest at life's curve-balls, dissappointments, failures, highs and lows.
I can attest to this from first-hand experience.

Meditation itself is a practice of achieving observational equanimity.

This may be a valuable practice for you, and @Progster , to explore.

(@Monachopia, I didn't not mention you by accident- it seems to me that you have a grasp of this exact practice.)

 

[sidd851]

The nothingness is what got me first too... Maybe what got me thinking about it was the book of the Neverending Story that I read quite some time ago - a silly tangent, but unlike the movie, the book is quite dark and talks about "The Nothing" that was swallowing up the world, almost like we are talking about death here. The absence of all and anything. A complete void. For a children's book it's quite deep as most evil entities have a face and a reason to exist/do what they do. This was just unavoidable, inescapable erasure of being.

You are right to mention control. We all have explicit desire to control everything around us to the smallest detail, yet, realistically, we can't. I dread to think about it really... But as the speech in the video I linked says: "But… actually… the whole problem… is that there really is no other problem, for human beings, then to... go over that waterfall when it comes." I guess... in this way, treat loss of control as a waterfall. It is inevitable that you will come across it and will have to go over. Accept that it will happen and do the best you can for yourself and others, as you do. Find coping mechanisms for when the unexpected happens. Prepare, so that at the very least, those situations aren't a complete shock. That's all I can suggest really, as you've got me thinking about this too now...

"Turn off your mind, relax and float down stream
It is not dying, it is not dying

Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void
It is shining, it is shining

Yet you may see the meaning of within
It is being, it is being

Love is all and love is everyone
It is knowing, it is knowing...

... that ignorance and hate may mourn the dead
It is believing, it is believing

But listen to the colour of your dreams
It is not living, it is not living

So play the game "Existence" to the end...
... Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning"

-Tomorrow Never Knows
-Revolver
-The Beatles

Spoiler

 

[Monachopia]

"Turn off your mind, relax and float down stream
It is not dying, it is not dying

Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void
It is shining, it is shining

Yet you may see the meaning of within
It is being, it is being

Love is all and love is everyone
It is knowing, it is knowing...

... that ignorance and hate may mourn the dead
It is believing, it is believing

But listen to the colour of your dreams
It is not living, it is not living

So play the game "Existence" to the end...
... Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning
Of the beginning, of the beginning"

-Tomorrow Never Knows
-Revolver
-The Beatles

Beautiful lyrics, I'm not a fan of the Beatles, but the words alone echo what we've been talking about very well... While I am not a Buddhist, nor would I follow any organised religion as such, the sentiments of kamma and rebirth have always been something I held in my heart ever since I was a child. Technically and scientifically both of those ideas make sense - kamma, the good and bad you do will follow in the memory of others. Rebirth - our atoms, molecules, our essence simply rearranges into another form. I've always known that I wanted to be buried and a seed planted where I was, so I may become a part of the tree that grows. The worms in the soil will be taken by birds to feed their young and a part of me will soar in the sky. It makes sense. While my consciousness will pass, my essence will not. There's something beautiful in that.

Thank you both @sidd851 and @Progster for having this discussion, it's been very interesting to follow and expand on. <3

 

[Monachopia]

I listened to this speech just now and this discussion came to mind. Meditation doesn't necessarily have to be a religious experience, more an unwinding and finding inner calm. @Progster I encourage you to listen to it and maybe try it out, of course it's not for everyone and it seems like quite a hard thing to do with all the chattering in our brains... But as a guide to how to get there and the purpose (from a non-religious perspective) seems to be a nice sentiment.

I do realise Alan Watts was a philosopher on Eastern religion and mixture of Christianity - but from what I've heard so far, quite a few of his principles and explanations of the world can be aligned with atheists too. He seemed to view atheism as a spiritual form in itself - and that organised religion may have detracted from spiritualism as a whole.

 

[Progster]

I listened to this speech just now and this discussion came to mind. Meditation doesn't necessarily have to be a religious experience, more an unwinding and finding inner calm. @Progster I encourage you to listen to it and maybe try it out, of course it's not for everyone and it seems like quite a hard thing to do with all the chattering in our brains... But as a guide to how to get there and the purpose (from a non-religious perspective) seems to be a nice sentiment.

I do realise Alan Watts was a philosopher on Eastern religion and mixture of Christianity - but from what I've heard so far, quite a few of his principles and explanations of the world can be aligned with atheists too. He seemed to view atheism as a spiritual form in itself - and that organised religion may have detracted from spiritualism as a whole.

Thank you for posting this. That is similar to mindfulness, a technique that they teach you when you have cognitive behavioural therapy. I think it's useful, that it will help.

 

[sidd851]

I listened to this speech just now and this discussion came to mind. Meditation doesn't necessarily have to be a religious experience, more an unwinding and finding inner calm. @Progster I encourage you to listen to it and maybe try it out, of course it's not for everyone and it seems like quite a hard thing to do with all the chattering in our brains... But as a guide to how to get there and the purpose (from a non-religious perspective) seems to be a nice sentiment.

I do realise Alan Watts was a philosopher on Eastern religion and mixture of Christianity - but from what I've heard so far, quite a few of his principles and explanations of the world can be aligned with atheists too. He seemed to view atheism as a spiritual form in itself - and that organised religion may have detracted from spiritualism as a whole.

Meditation For Dummies is a fantastically written introduction to meditation.

It explores practices, both religious and secular, without... partisanism?

It also provides practices and experiments.

As a practice, meditation is somewhat counter-intuitive at first.

Our psyche screams "Do something, even if it's wrong!" in response to external stimuli.

But, our control of our environment is really tenuous at best.

When we're able to stop the frenetic desire to control every minute aspect of our experience and our actions directed thusly,
we realize that our efforts are largely in vain,
and that our huge expenditure on "control" is largely wasted.
Eventually, we realize that " Don't just do something, sit there." is far wiser the expenditure.

We can spend our lives on the hamster-wheel of trying to sate our attractions and avoiding our aversions, an unending battle of attrition, or we can work on relaxing our grasp, and our expectations(they're usually unrealistic, anyway), attractions and aversions.

They are the source of all discontent.

Meditation is training oneself for equanimity.

 

[Full Steam]

The best description I heard of meditation is (paraphrasing); "sitting and not pushing anything away nor pulling anything towards"

That's the essence of it for me.

Interestingly, I found that medication helps a lot with sensory overload IF I meditate before it gets too bad.

I've been looking for and experimenting on my overload-induced shutdowns for years, and I believe that my shutdowns are caused at least partly by low BDNF.

Stress (caused in this instance by noise or other stimuli), causes a drop in BDNF.

I find that raising BDNF reduces shutdown frequency, and meditation has been proven in studies to increase BDNF.

I think once it gets bad though, there are other chemicals that have been affected and it's too late, but early on meditation works very well.

 

[Samuel]

I'm agnostic and i have been for 2 years now. I'll never know for sure how the universe came into existence, but one of the great things about life is that it's full of mysteries!

 

[Joshua the Writer]

I am an aspie Athiest, a huge fan of darkmatter2525 on Youtube. I just find religion as a waste of time and oppressive but that is just me.

I finally decided to just not be religious at all. Religion is such a silly waste of time. Sure, while many events in human history happened because of religion, both good and bad (mostly the latter, TBH), it has absolutely no place in this modern-day society that must progress. In fact, more and more people are becoming atheist. It’s only a matter of time when atheism practically phases out religion.

And, hey, I now believe religion should be phased out in this manner. I can’t believe I fell into such a poorly designed and manufactured trap (aka Christianity, in my case), and I don’t want anybody else falling into a trap like I did. No Christianity traps, no Islam traps, no Judaism, no Hindu traps. You name it, if it’s a religion, it’s likely a trap. If you are reading this and you’re considering leaving your religion, I highly recommend doing so.

I figure that all religious people are in a pitfall trap but they don’t realize it.

Also, the only factual thing about religion is that it exists.

 

[Joshua the Writer]

But lack of proof doesn't deny existence, thereby making agnosticism the obvious(to me) stand point.

Sorry, but lack of proof DOES deny existence. That's just how evidence works. For example, you couldn’t prove that I have an active account on this site unless I post relatively frequently. If I didn’t post frequently, you wouldn’t be able to prove it, considering that the evidence of my active account is my post frequency. Do you understand this now?

Evolution is clear and proven, disproving many long held beliefs, but there's surely a possibility that it's not all random?

No, it is very random, with many factors contributing to how individual species are right now, and how they will end up in the future. I really can’t explain it in depth RN, considering that my 10th grade Biology had an entire 30-some page chapter on it, along with the fact that somebody could do that better than I can.

Is there not a bit of rebellion that turns an agnostic into an atheist?

Your question here is a bit broad. Mind specifying?

 

[Monachopia]

I finally decided to just not be religious at all. Religion is such a silly waste of time. Sure, while many events in human history happened because of religion, both good and bad (mostly the latter, TBH), it has absolutely no place in this modern-day society that must progress. In fact, more and more people are becoming atheist. It’s only a matter of time when atheism practically phases out religion.

And, hey, I now believe religion should be phased out in this manner. I can’t believe I fell into such a poorly designed and manufactured trap (aka Christianity, in my case), and I don’t want anybody else falling into a trap like I did. No Christianity traps, no Islam traps, no Judaism, no Hindu traps. You name it, if it’s a religion, it’s likely a trap. If you are reading this and you’re considering leaving your religion, I highly recommend doing so.

I figure that all religious people are in a pitfall trap but they don’t realize it.

Also, the only factual thing about religion is that it exists.

From what I've seen around, you've recently came to the conclusion that religion isn't for you... That is fine. But you do seem a little angry and bitter... I understand your feelings, if you feel like you've been lied to or coerced into it...

While I am an atheist, I do believe that religion does have a place in society - it gives many people comfort and community. There are people who turn to it because they don't have anything else that can soothe their anguish. The aspect of religion we should be condemning is radicalism and exclusionary/damning mantras, such as those that target homosexuality, other beliefs, races, female rights, etc... those sorts of things. Those aspects of religion really should be phased out, however, a general spiritualism that promotes peace and comfort is not a bad thing.