Autism double standards

[Judge]

I was talking about situations and the unfairness where it's okay for one party to do A bit of another party does A it's wrong. That's what a double standard is.

A sense of manners and social protocols is also a subjective choice even within our own ranks.

Where some will emphasize them while others will be oblivious to them. No differently than our NT counterparts. Different priorities do not necessarily translate into double standards.

 

[Misty Avich]

Double Standard - a rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.
"the double standards employed to deal with ordinary people and those in the City"

We all know what double standards are, saying it's only a double standard to certain people is like saying not to say the colour red because it isn't red to colourblind people.

 

[Judge]

We all know what double standards are, saying it's only a double standard to certain people is like saying not to say the colour red because it isn't red to colourblind people.

I don't take such considerations as "rules" at all. Just ambiguous social protocols, largely because they don't uniformly or rigidly apply. At least not to most of us, I suspect.

"Different strokes for different folks". Autistic or not. You're looking for approval, yet not finding it here. What does that tell you?

Hanging on so tightly to such a perception isn't doing you any favors. Knowing a toxic perception can so easily create a toxic narrative that does not really exist.

 

[Misty Avich]

Well hopefully Neia or Jonn or thejuice will be here later so they'll probably explain it in better terms (as they'll most likely understand where I'm coming from). I struggle with explaining things without using just simple words.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

The trick is to cook really bad food on purpose. Then your partner will insist on cooking the meals every day. It's the old "I'm terrible at this" strategy.

I do not cook, happy with a can of beans.

 

[Judge]

Well hopefully Neia or Jonn or thejuice will be here later so they'll probably explain it in better terms (as they'll most likely understand where I'm coming from). I struggle with explaining things without using just simple words

Wouldn't matter. I think your perception of social protocols is flawed, however one words it.

Far too rigid, making it unnecessarily toxic to you.

 

[jsilver256]

Yes because they will. I did actually experiment once and the results were just as I imagined.

Were both threads unanimous in attacking the OP? Could RSD be a factor?

 

[honeytoast]

I'm a bit confused about the subject of this topic.

Are you trying to discuss how people respond to posts on autism forums?

 

[Misty Avich]

I don't know any more, the replies in this thread have lost me.

 

[honeytoast]

I kind of get what you are trying to say - sometimes people can post mean replies without trying to understand the circumstances. Despite being autistic, they are mad at you (an autistic person) for not following or adhering to social rules.

 

[tree]

The first post was a fictional example
to which the OP speculated imaginary responses.

The premise appears to be to propose that
people are treated differently depending
on their neurology.

How exactly the neurology is to be established
isn't clear. Visually? Intuitively? Self reporting?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think it also depends on what kind of people you're dealing with. The fictional reactions you describe sound quite judgy and annoying to me, and thankfully I haven't experienced anything like it so far.

Maybe something related I experienced:
- I said I feel uncomfortable somewhere because it was too loud and crowded and smelly, and the person I was with just rolled their eyes and called me oversensitive. Another person in another situation said something similar and received understanding.

- Or, I as an asexual don't want sex one day and people might be annoyed, compared to a non-asexual person saying the same and receiving understanding. (Really only a hypothetical example, my partner is very understanding)

However, in both examples, I see a pattern. The first being that a person who reacts like that is simply behaving intolerantly, it's not a general reaction I would expect from people in general, but it's something a mean person might do. So I wouldn't see it as a general double standard-thing, but an annoying reaction by an intolerant person, and not think too much about it.
Secondly, both things are something that could happen often to me (sensory overstimulation due to autism, and not wanting sex due to being asexual), so people are more used to me saying things like that and therefore having more opportunities to grow annoyed by them, than if someone said these things only rarely. Does that make sense?

If an NT person says once in a blue moon that it's too loud for them, chances are, other NTs around them feel similarly, or they're understanding nevertheless because it's an exception. Same if someone tells their partner once in a while they don't fancy sex, but normally they do - their partner is way more likely to be able to relate to the feeling than if it happens all the time.

I understand your sentiment and I'm sorry you experienced these things often. As I said, I'd try to ignore things like that.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I just had another thought on why you might encounter these reactions more on autism websites, thus creating a bias: Autistic people are more likely to consider all different sides of a problem and offer advice based on all facts. NTs (in my experience) are more likely to offer quick, more superficial and more consoling answers, more according to what the other person might want to hear. So an autist might have thought your situation through in detail and come up with a logical, possible cause, without meaning any harm (e.g. "maybe you haven't considered XYZ or the other person might have thought XYZ"). NTs don't usually do that, but only start thinking a situation through like that if the other person explicitly requests it.

Example:
You: "I'm annoyed, the waiter at the restaurant gave me the wrong order. Now I have this food I don't like/that gives me sensory issues/etc."
Likely NT response: "Oh, I'm sorry, that's annoying. Do you want to tell the waiter?"
Likely autistic response: "Huh. Maybe you ordered the wrong thing? Maybe the waiter misunderstood you? Do you want to tell the waiter?"
The autistic answer might give you the impression that you're being criticised, but it's usually only meant as an objective situation analysis to figure out what went wrong. The NT is less likely to verbalise these things, unless you directly ask "how do you think this might have happened?"

So the second kind of reaction is way more likely at autism forums because there are more people who think this way. It might come across more as critical.

 

[Misty Avich]

I just had another thought on why you might encounter these reactions more on autism websites, thus creating a bias: Autistic people are more likely to consider all different sides of a problem and offer advice based on all facts. NTs (in my experience) are more likely to offer quick, more superficial and more consoling answers, more according to what the other person might want to hear. So an autist might have thought your situation through in detail and come up with a logical, possible cause, without meaning any harm (e.g. "maybe you haven't considered XYZ or the other person might have thought XYZ"). NTs don't usually do that, but only start thinking a situation through like that if the other person explicitly requests it.

Example:
You: "I'm annoyed, the waiter at the restaurant gave me the wrong order. Now I have this food I don't like/that gives me sensory issues/etc."
Likely NT response: "Oh, I'm sorry, that's annoying. Do you want to tell the waiter?"
Likely autistic response: "Huh. Maybe you ordered the wrong thing? Maybe the waiter misunderstood you? Do you want to tell the waiter?"
The autistic answer might give you the impression that you're being criticised, but it's usually only meant as an objective situation analysis to figure out what went wrong. The NT is less likely to verbalise these things, unless you directly ask "how do you think this might have happened?"

So the second kind of reaction is way more likely at autism forums because there are more people who think this way. It might come across more as critical.

Yes, I'm so glad you get what I'm saying here. Even in this thread some of the posters (with all good intentions) seemed to overlook the point I was trying to make and turned it into a debate rather than "oh yes, I've encountered double standards before..." or perhaps offer an answer to why people on these forums usually side with the NT party when an autistic member vents about an unfair situation they've faced (a situation where the NT was the one being unreasonable). But you have just gave answers I was looking for.

Maybe that was why I felt attacked whenever this happened on forums, where I had an unpleasant or unexpected situation occur that I wasn't sure how to deal with and autistic people sided with the other party who was causing the issue even though from a third person point of view it was the NT party who was in the wrong.
They'd bang on about the NT's feelings even though the NT in the situation wasn't even upset or anything, while I'm like "hang on a minute, I was the one hurt, not the NT." And it just wound me up.

But your answer suddenly slotted it all into place, so the next time I run into a situation where I feel would be a double standard if the boot was on the other foot, I'll think that it's just autistic people being analytical rather than getting my frustration. Usually I look for reassurance and sympathy, and I often give others that too. I don't always jump straight on to the advice wagon or start on the maybes.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yes, I'm so glad you get what I'm saying here. Even in this thread some of the posters (with all good intentions) seemed to overlook the point I was trying to make and turned it into a debate rather than "oh yes, I've encountered double standards before..." or perhaps offer an answer to why people on these forums usually side with the NT party when an autistic member vents about an unfair situation they've faced (a situation where the NT was the one being unreasonable). But you have just gave answers I was looking for.

Maybe that was why I felt attacked whenever this happened on forums, where I had an unpleasant or unexpected situation occur that I wasn't sure how to deal with and autistic people sided with the other party who was causing the issue even though from a third person point of view it was the NT party who was in the wrong.
They'd bang on about the NT's feelings even though the NT in the situation wasn't even upset or anything, while I'm like "hang on a minute, I was the one hurt, not the NT." And it just wound me up.

But your answer suddenly slotted it all into place, so the next time I run into a situation where I feel would be a double standard if the boot was on the other foot, I'll think that it's just autistic people being analytical rather than getting my frustration. Usually I look for reassurance and sympathy, and I often give others that too. I don't always jump straight on to the advice wagon or start on the

I'm so glad!

I wanted to add that that actually happens very often to me from the other side, completely involuntarily. My autistic partner and I have a mutual NT friend who often vents to us about family and personal issues. Our instinctive reaction is to go into dissection mode, analysing it and giving possible reasons and solutions. It happens regularly that we offend her by that reaction because she feels criticised and only wanted some support and consolation. She needs to let us know then that she's not looking for problem-analysis and advice, but only for understanding and support. As soon as she says that, we switch into that mode. For us, the dissection mode comes naturally. And when you dissection a situation into all it's possible causes, it's inevitable that some of those causes are related to the person who's complaining about it. That's not meant in a critical way but is just part of the situation analysis that comes naturally to us. We have to actively switch into "no advice but only support mode".

Often it's funny, sometimes it's frustrating for out friend. But well, we autists outnumber her in this case and she's adapted a lot to our way of thinking

 

[Misty Avich]

I'm so glad!

I wanted to add that that actually happens very often to me from the other side, completely involuntarily. My autistic partner and I have a mutual NT friend who often vents to us about family and personal issues. Our instinctive reaction is to go into dissection mode, analysing it and giving possible reasons and solutions. It happens regularly that we offend her by that reaction because she feels criticised and only wanted some support and consolation. She needs to let us know then that she's not looking for problem-analysis and advice, but only for understanding and support. As soon as she says that, we switch into that mode. For us, the dissection mode comes naturally. And when you dissection a situation into all it's possible causes, it's inevitable that some of those causes are related to the person who's complaining about it. That's not meant in a critical way but is just part of the situation analysis that comes naturally to us. We have to actively switch into "no advice but only support mode".

Often it's funny, sometimes it's frustrating for out friend. But well, we autists outnumber her in this case and she's adapted a lot to our way of thinking

Yes I get what you mean. I seem to naturally offer sympathy or reassurance, because it's what I want too most of the time. I only overanalyse situations because I'm overthinking due to social anxiety and RSD, but I don't overanalyse other people's problems. I usually see it from their point when they're reaching out to me.

The only annoying double standard I do often face in real life is when I'm being expressive some people tell me to ''stop whining'', yet they whine all the time about more things than I do and others just politely listen. I never tell people to stop whining. Today a coworker was ranting in a ''whiny'' sort of tone about the staff shift arrangements. The staff shift arrangements doesn't affect me but his face and tone made me feel really sorry for him, so I was sympathetic and said, ''yeah, they should have even the staff out throughout the day, not having 5 people in the morning and 1 person in the afternoon'' (he was the 1 person in the afternoon, I'm a cleaner and not an engineer like them). He responded with ''yes, you're exactly right.''

 

[jsilver256]

Great discussion @Misty Avich and @AuroraBorealis . I love a breakthrough and a happy ending

Yeah, I will also add on, it simply doesn't come naturally to many of us autistics to recognize when sympathy is desired, or to offer it. I'm not even sure we have all that a strong ability to even accept sympathy compared to NTs. It does little for me when my husband empathizes. On the other hand, if he says something like, "you shouldn't worry about this because xyz..." that's infinitely more helpful.

 

[Misty Avich]

During the covid pandemic I was in a panic and relied on the other forum I used to be on, and although the people there meant well and were genuinely empathetic, I wanted answers and reassurance more than advice. I was a key worker, living with a vulnerable person, and my situation was the only situation to not have clear government guidelines and so I was put into the ''well if you get it you get it'' group, which was terrifying as well as confusing. It made me not want to comply to the rules but at the same time I was terrified of catching the bug.

Being under stress and in such a state of poor mental health due to the worry of my vulnerable husband more than myself, I was a bit irrational and turned down everyone's advice they kept pushing at me, just wanting answers and sympathy. But the more I indicated this, the more they said ''everyone in the world is stressed and anxious about covid, not just you'' as if that would make me feel any better. It didn't.

Or sometimes people are insistent with their advice, if you turn it down they get offended or if you say ''that advice won't work for me'' or something they still try to pin it on to you, like ''it will if you do X and stop doing Y and think about Z''. Then it turns into a war, and they pity you and make you feel guilty. It's a difficult situation, because giving unwanted advice is usually done with the best of intentions, so turning them down feels like you're turning down help. But I'm more of a ''REASSURE ME!!! ANSWER ME!!!'' type of panicker, as giving advice is sometimes an indication that it's a final destination thing and there is no way out except to just accept and deal with it.

It's like back in 2012 when I was terrified of the world ending, people on the internet forum were like ''preparing is a good thing to do. Buy lots of tinned food and drink and store in your garage or basement'' (I had neither of those luxuries in my house). That didn't make me feel less anxious about a predicted apocalypse, all I wanted was answers or reassurance of the possibility that it won't happen. Even if the possibility of such a thing not happening is smaller than the possibility that it will happen, if someone offers me that bit of reassurance I can hang on to it as hope and it can soothe my anxiety.

 

[jsilver256]

Maybe you ought to get reassessed after all

... oops, that was more advice.

 

[GrownupGirl]

If you're NT and really like something, it's a hobby and there's nothing wrong with it.
If you're ND and really like something it's an obsession and it's weird and creepy, even if it's the same thing an NT might like. Like collecting action figures or watching movies.

If you're NT and you're into toys or cartoons, you're in touch with your inner child.
If you're ND and you're into toys or cartoons, you're infantile, immature, intellectually disabled, etc.

If you're NT and want to be alone, it's "me time" or "alone time".
If you're ND and want to be alone, it's "isolating" or "being antisocial".