Autistic empathy

[Pats]

I'm not contradicting anything you said, but it did put me in mind of some of the reading I've done researching this topic.
There's an increasing body of thought and evidence that suggests that NTs can find empathy with autistic people difficult, and ASD people can find empathy empathy with NTs difficult, but autistic people very often find empathy with other people on the spectrum comes quite naturally.

I find it easy to empathize with NT's in difficult situations. I may be feeling what I think they would be feeling, I'll never know that for sure.

 

[Autistamatic]

For me it's not difficult to sympathise, but true empathy doesn't always come to me. Sometimes I get it - I recognise it when I do, and the better I know someone, the more likely that I'll pick it up, but I often need to supplement that with my mental pause button.
Stop, think, calculate, imagine (feel), respond.

 

[Peter Morrison]

The issue is the disconnection between how we feel and how we show what we feel. Since childhood, I have never known what to say or do when I heard sad news about someone. I had always assumed that bad things are bound to happen, so I expect the periodic medical tragedy or misfortune. When posed with bad news I go inward. The sense of heartbreak is intense, but I don't know how to reach out to others in their grief. I felt the I was cold, or that I was afraid to act on any physical and emotional ritual that goes along with consoling someone. Words would never come to me naturally - I felt my words were always hollow.

My mother died about six months before my dad. I recall hearing "Well, she lived a good life" from a distant family member. That phrase sounded cheap and insincere to me, as if we were rating the quality of her life as compensation for losing her. I never thought that you could really find words that help in any way. I feel bad for the person suffering from a loss, and I want to immediately look toward getting over, or through the emotional ordeal. The tragedy cannot be undone or corrected in any way. The sufferer has to work things out. You can offer your presence, but it doesn't change anything. I accept tragedy as part of life. As unpleasant as it is, the best thing is to move forward. It is in this way that I feel I lack empathy. I may feel pain inside, but I can't do anything to take the sufferer's pain away. It's a personal struggle. Words can't erase their pain.

 

[TempeFan]

I'm not contradicting anything you said, but it did put me in mind of some of the reading I've done researching this topic.
There's an increasing body of thought and evidence that suggests that NTs can find empathy with autistic people difficult, and ASD people can find empathy with NTs difficult, but autistic people very often find empathy with other people on the spectrum comes quite naturally.

Makes sense. People who survive the same trauma have felt the same trauma so of course they can relate better. A traumatic experience, especially one often repeated has more impact than ordinary experiences like a broken fingernail.

 

[tducey]

I feel empathy. I just don't show it in a typical way.

 

[Daydreamer]

I remember going on an online therapy site ages ago, and one of the counsellors there disagreed with me on the subject of empathy. After that talk with her I realised that I wasn't going to get much out of her sessions, so I asked to talk to someone else. She seemed to misunderstand most of my points, never mind the wrong page- I think we were reading two different books.

The primary part of our disagreement revolved around what I believe falls into the category of emotional empathy.

Emotional: The ability to react to what you see in other's situations. Neuroscience mainly attributes this to the mirror neuron effect.

This is what I've seen many describe in this thread. Feeling hurt when they see someone else get hurt physically for example. Can't stand depressing news on TV. etc. It actually causes physical and emotional distress within from seeing or hearing about someone else's suffering.

She told me that I was incorrect about empathy, and that it just didn't work in the way I was describing. I explained to her that sometimes I feel the emotions of others before I fully comprehend why I feel that way. For example, if someone is stressed I might subconsciously pick up on this but not consciously register that they feel this way, instead becoming stressed myself seemingly out of nowhere only to realise "Oh, that person over there is showing signs of stress, that's what I was picking up on". Almost an empathy lag, if you will.

The logical order would be picking up on signs- feeling concern for the other person- and finally, feeling stressed yourself. However, my brain isn't always logical. Usually it follows the pattern of; randomly feeling stressed (with no explanation, one moment I'm fine then suddenly I start feeling stress)- confusion, asking myself if someone is stressed in the room- picking up on signs- and then feeling concern for the person. I pick up on other people's emotions so well that my brain has moments where it forgets to inform me that my feelings at that given time are not my own.

Watching a movie with someone who isn't enjoying it as much as I am decreases my entertainment value as my mind decides "Hey, let's try to guess what they are thinking!" and I suddenly start seeing every single flaw with that film almost as if I've just shone an ultraviolet torch over a particularly incriminating crime scene.

I would say that I experience emotional empathy the most, if I feel bad for someone then I usually quite literally feel it. However, I do experience all three to a degree.

Additional Note: The counsellor I got referred to disagreed with the other, and would often call me hyper-empathetic.

Cognitive:

Mentally understanding what another is feeling, but, it does not cause a feeling within yourself when observing. Usually learned from observing others or based on events that have happened to yourself so you know how the other feels.

I'm somewhat good at this, although I usually find it easier to comfort someone over written language rather than in verbal face-to-face conversation.

Compassionate empathy:

The deepest of all empathy. Both of the above are felt plus these empaths are so moved they are compelled to jump in and help even if it may mean being hurt themselves.

Example: This type sees an animal run over by a car and it is hurt but still alive.
Without thinking they will run out to try to save the animal not thinking they may be putting themselves in harms way from other cars. It is spontaneous.

Hmm. Based on this, I experience compassionate empathy the least, and emotional empathy the most.

Additional Note: Autistamatic, I hope that your video goes well. Now, I do realise that you were mainly hoping for autistic insights on this topic and here I am, someone who may or may not be on the spectrum. A neuro (typically in question) person if you'll allow it. However, I just wanted to give my thoughts and experiences on the subject. Feel free to ignore this post. Apologies for length, I may have gotten a little carried away.

 

[OlLiE]

i am aware when empathy is required/expected
i know how to feign interest and sympathy
i just don't 'feel' it

if i don't realise it is expected, than it doesn't happen and i get into trouble
if i don't have the energy to fake it, then it doesn't happen and i get into trouble

by trouble i mean:
stop going on about your feelings they won't contribute to the solution but delay it
what is the problem,
what is an acceptable solution,
implement it,
stop talking about it,
go away

 

[Autistamatic]

Feel free to ignore this post.

Not in the slightest It's all valid. Hearing observations like yours helps put our own responses into perspective. The reason I was moved to start doing these videos is to make my own small contribution to building bridges between the ASD & NT worlds. Input from NT people is always welcome. My wife is NT and provides me with no end of constructive criticism and inspiration.

 

[BeachLife]

Yesterday I started work on the script for the next Autistamatic video on the subject of empathy within autism. It's always struck me that the accepted ideas of autism suggest we lack empathy yet so many of us consider ourselves to have a deep sense of empathy with others.
What I thought was going to be a simple topic turned out to be far more layered and complex than I originally thought. I try to keep my YouTube videos quite short - between 10 and 15 minutes - but this topic has already expanded to at least two videos so I thought I'd throw it open to the community to see what your opinions and feelings are on the subject.
How do you feel about your own sense of empathy? Do you feel lacking or do you feel it is one of your strengths? Do you think the common perception is accurate or misleading?
Obviously any responses will be anonymous. No names or screen names will ever be mentioned, but if you are particularly eloquent I may want to quote your observations in which case I will ask your permission

Hi Autistamatic, I'm really enjoying this thread. I am HFA and am also am empath. A woman called Laura Weldon has a great website called autisticempaths. I came across it as I sat alone, laughing at myself as I googled "Autistic empaths" as I thought to myself "well, I certainly do leave no stone unturned when it comes to self development.. there's no way anything will come up. There it was. Her writing brought me to tears as I had never related so much to anything, or heard these complex experiences articulated so precisely as in her blog posts.
I had worked out that I was an empath several years ago when I kept manifesting then processing my loved ones' pain. I have written a fair bit on the subject. Laura's site helped me confirm within myself that I'm Autistic as well as an empath and I went on to be diagnosed. Before finding Laura, I guess I had fallen for what I now believe to be a fallacy, that all on the spectrum lack empathy.
My personal belief is that empathic ability varies so much from human to human and has nothing to do with neurology, its more about energetic sensitivity. I do though believe that if empaths who also happen to be autistic, can sometimes have a fabulous ability to hyperfocus right in on the energy they are experiencing and articulate what it is very accurately.
I would love to watch your vids, will keep an eye out

 

[Autistamatic]

Hi @BeachLife - thanks for the mention of Laura's site. I did come across it whilst researching this video and yes, she writes very powerfully. I don't know her personally but there is no doubt she is part of the same effort to increase awareness and understanding of people on the spectrum. I can see why her writing touched you on an emotional level.
I'd be interested to read some of your writing, if you are happy to share. If it's published online I'll take a look, if not then I'll gladly PM you an email address.
I certainly agree with you that empathetic ability/sensitivity varies right across the species, not just amongst ASD people. That is largely the point I'm addressing with these videos. I know I personally have limited resources for natural empathy, but I have formulated tools to allow me to approximate empathy in conscious thought. It may not be instinctive or involuntary, but is it any less valid? It has still got me through life for the most part. Some of us, especially those with alexithymia, may lack natural empathy entirely, but that does not mean that we do not appreciate or experience sympathetic feelings when the stimulus is strong enough. The proportion of autistic people with low/no empathy appears to be statistically higher than in the NT population, but it is far from being an identifying trait in it's own right. Even if it were as high as 50% it still means that the stereotype is unfairly labelling the other 50% of us.
If you want to take a look at my work, there's a link to my YouTube channel in my signature below. It's early days yet but the content builds week by week.

 

[Bella Pines]

It's always struck me that the accepted ideas of autism suggest we lack empathy yet so many of us consider ourselves to have a deep sense of empathy with others.

Following the definition of;

NOUN
"The ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

The psychological identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another."

I'm extreme on the HFA/Asperger's scale and I do have empathy.

I think that the aspie reputation of not having empathy stems from a neurotypical filter on how one "should behave" when exhibiting empathy.

Example 1, a colleague of mine is in tears. Her 5 year marriage is breaking down. Her husband doesn't want children, but she desperately wants children. They argue constantly and she's feeling fragile.

The accepted exhibition of empathy is to hug her, listen and nod with a pained expression on your face. This is not how I react. I can exactly put myself in her position. I can understand how she arrived where she is. I understand how she feels hopeless and suffocated. I can empathize. However, I can also apply logic. Logically, she should have had such an important conversation 5 years ago. She got herself into the position and bleeting about it isn't going to help. In her position I'd make a decision to stay or go and work through the fall out. So I can empathize, but conclude that she's quite frankly being pathetic. I'm accused of lack of empathy because I don't exhibit the "expected behaviour" that shows empathy.

Example 2, my son's friend is ill. I can't type the details without crying. Needless to say, there is no cure and he'll deteriorate over time. He is an only child and his parents have no choice but to watch.

Once again I'm perfectly capable of experiencing of the feelings, thoughts of another. But this is a real problem. I cry every time I think of it, I'm tearing up now. This is not a pathetic 1st world problem. This is not over dramatised or trivial. This is an awful, real situation that they didn't ask for and are handling with dignity.

So I am perfectly capable of empathy, I just have a higher benchmark and would "feel" differently than most people who whine and whimper when they get themselves into a situation that they could have easily seen coming.

 

[BeachLife]

Hi @BeachLife - thanks for the mention of Laura's site. I did come across it whilst researching this video and yes, she writes very powerfully. I don't know her personally but there is no doubt she is part of the same effort to increase awareness and understanding of people on the spectrum. I can see why her writing touched you on an emotional level.
I'd be interested to read some of your writing, if you are happy to share. If it's published online I'll take a look, if not then I'll gladly PM you an email address.
I certainly agree with you that empathetic ability/sensitivity varies right across the species, not just amongst ASD people. That is largely the point I'm addressing with these videos. I know I personally have limited resources for natural empathy, but I have formulated tools to allow me to approximate empathy in conscious thought. It may not be instinctive or involuntary, but is it any less valid? It has still got me through life for the most part. Some of us, especially those with alexithymia, may lack natural empathy entirely, but that does not mean that we do not appreciate or experience sympathetic feelings when the stimulus is strong enough. The proportion of autistic people with low/no empathy appears to be statistically higher than in the NT population, but it is far from being an identifying trait in it's own right. Even if it were as high as 50% it still means that the stereotype is unfairly labelling the other 50% of us.
If you want to take a look at my work, there's a link to my YouTube channel in my signature below. It's early days yet but the content builds week by week.

I think "self work" is the most important thing we can do, and I personally believe that evolved souls are more interested in further evolving so it sounds like you are committed to shining in the world as brightly as can be . I'm currently very distracted and unsuccessfully trying to multitask lol as I'm really into this subject so yes will get something to you for sure, and check will out your link soon. Thanks

 

[Autistamatic]

So I am perfectly capable of empathy, I just have a higher benchmark and would "feel" differently than most people who whine and whimper when they get themselves into a situation that they could have easily seen coming.

Absolutely - that's basically where I'm coming from in the second part. The first covers different styles of experiencing and processing empathy to try busting the myth that autism and empathy are mutually exclusive. The second part is discussing WHY NTs get the impression we are unemotional and/or lacking empathy. The examples you give explain it very well from two quite different perspectives.
In one your logical mind overrides your feelings to some degree because you perceive the problem as self inflicted. In a similar way - even when a problem is genuine, we can tend more towards practical solutions to a problem instead of the "there, there dear" response that is expected.
In the second the emotions are overwhelming in themselves which may paralyse you from taking the expected action.
That was a really valuable post, thanks for sharing

 

[Alis1998]

I do feel empathy, but it doesn't always appear in my reaction towards that person. Sometimes I feel it later, and sometimes I don't feel it at all even tho I feel like it should. I think that empathy is a thing you need to realise and understand before you can put a label on it. And as we all know, autistic people aren't so good at knowing what feeling is what feeling.
I don't think that not having empathy is a good or a bad thing. It depends on the situation. You shouldn't always feel empathy for someone who is for example wise a bad person. But if you never show empathy towards someone that needs it, then it kinda makes you appear that you don't have a good bassic sense of feelings.
I do not always feel in the moment, but I can say I do feel empathy. If it is more then a neurotypical person? I am not sure. Everybody is diffrent. But I do think that when it comes to daily struggles that most people keep for themself we can better relate because we are more effected by it in consideration of our information and sensory process. Maybe this is getting a little too detailed but some people that aren't autistic can't feel empathy. I also think that autism because of it being a spectrum can all effect us diffrently. In general I think autism effects our personality traits and our likings more intensly. But that is another subject. I hope I didn't go too far off topic with this.

 

[DCA]

How do you feel about your own sense of empathy? Do you feel lacking or do you feel it is one of your strengths? Do you think the common perception is accurate or misleading?

Yes it is very misleading. I think I have an overactive sense of empathy. If I think I hurt someone in some way for example, it causes long stretches of depression & anxiety in me.

 

[TempeFan]

The reason the world doesn't see our empathy is a catch 22. We know people are hurting and actually want to help and can think up ways to do so but society as a whole isn't interested in understanding or sharing and the people in power won't allow anything that doesn't add to their power and profit so won't accept people acting on their empathy which makes it impossible for anyone to help. This causes more pain and, in order to cope, people turn a blind eye. As was pointed out in this thread some of us have to shutdown or meltdown and must shut off our empathy intentionally and those who show it are ingored or bullied as the empathy is intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted as weakness or stupidity or interference or conflict, etc.

NT's have it but know they will be smacked down for showing it, so they know not to or they just limit it to what society sees as empathy - an insincere or even heartfelt expression of, "Oh those poor unfortunate people, I hope somebody ELSE does something about it." We are seen not to have the ability because only those who express it in the socially acceptable way are credited. All have the ability to show empathy but there are just too many consequences and no other options.

 

[Pats]

Yes it is very misleading. I think I have an overactive sense of empathy. If I think I hurt someone in some way for example, it causes long stretches of depression & anxiety in me.

overactive sympathy - would this count in that category? I went to see "Our Idiot Brother" at the theater with my youngest daughter. It's a comedy, right? Well, before the movie my daughter said that the idiot brother makes her think of my son/her brother. Through the entire movie all I could do was picture my son in that role and while everyone else was laughing hysterically I could not stop crying. lol

 

[Pats]

Hang on hang on. I was reading about empathy :

• To empathize with another person, one must recognize the other person's feelings. People with autism have difficulties with "reading" others' faces and body language, and may not fully understand their spoken words.
• To empathize with another person, one must share the other person's hopes, dreams and/or expectations. People with autism may not, for example, share an intense desire for romantic involvement, ambition to rise up in an organization, or fear of embarrassment.
• To empathize with another person, one must have the cognitive and emotional experience to relate personally to another's feelings. People with autism may have cognitive challenges -- or they may simply lack the experience necessary to empathize -- even if they are quite capable of sympathizing.
• To empathize with another person, one must not only feel with that person but also have the tools to show or tell about one's empathic feelings. People with autism may not show or tell about their feelings in ways that are clearly understood by others.

• To empathize with another person, one must share a cultural understanding that displays of empathy are expected and desired. People with autism may not pick up on cultural cues, and thus may not express empathic feelings even when they are felt.

Now I'm wondering if I do empathize? Am I confusing feeling emotions appropriately connected to a story with empathy? I strongly feel the emotions - sometimes to the degree of interfering with everyday life. But am I being empathetic if I'm not relaying what I'm feeling to the person actually going through the ordeal?

 

[Autistamatic]

Those are quite broad generalisations.
Affective empathy (emotional empathy) is quite common in autistic women and many men. It's the instinctive, unlearned sort. You know when you smile at a baby and it smiles and laughs with you, but if people around are arguing the baby starts crying? That's not learned. It's in built. It's why laughter is infectious and "being there" at a concert or sporting event is so much more rewarding than watching it on TV.
Cognitive empathy is affected by culture and experience and it is what many of us lack but often make up for by theorising. You can only truly cognitively empathise if you have had the same or similar experiences, but it is something which can, to a degree, be simulated. That's at the core of the "Empathy - Systemising Theory" I mentioned earlier.
In addition one can empathise - i.e. FEEL something akin to another, but to empathise WITH someone there must be an exchange of some sort. To feel empathy is like talking to yourself, to empathise with someone is a conversation (spoken or unspoken).
That is where some of the impressions about autistic empathy may come from. Whatever we feel in terms of empathy, we often don't express it or do express it, but in an unconventional way. Either way, it's not always evident to the other people involved.

 

[HidinginPlainSight]

Hang on hang on. I was reading about empathy :

• To empathize with another person, one must recognize the other person's feelings. People with autism have difficulties with "reading" others' faces and body language, and may not fully understand their spoken words.
• To empathize with another person, one must share the other person's hopes, dreams and/or expectations. People with autism may not, for example, share an intense desire for romantic involvement, ambition to rise up in an organization, or fear of embarrassment.
• To empathize with another person, one must have the cognitive and emotional experience to relate personally to another's feelings. People with autism may have cognitive challenges -- or they may simply lack the experience necessary to empathize -- even if they are quite capable of sympathizing.
• To empathize with another person, one must not only feel with that person but also have the tools to show or tell about one's empathic feelings. People with autism may not show or tell about their feelings in ways that are clearly understood by others.

• To empathize with another person, one must share a cultural understanding that displays of empathy are expected and desired. People with autism may not pick up on cultural cues, and thus may not express empathic feelings even when they are felt.

Now I'm wondering if I do empathize? Am I confusing feeling emotions appropriately connected to a story with empathy? I strongly feel the emotions - sometimes to the degree of interfering with everyday life. But am I being empathetic if I'm not relaying what I'm feeling to the person actually going through the ordeal?

This is sort of how I see it. Many people confuse having depth of feeling with the ability to empathize. I often have feelings about a situation only later to find out that I was completely mistaking the other person's point of view.

That does not mean that I don't have a depth of feeling. It just means I can't read social situations, I can't tell if someone likes me or dislikes me and I can't commiserate at the level people think is appropriate.

This becomes especially obvious at work where I am always the last to realize what sort of back-stabbing is going on. I'm always like, "I thought they were friends." And it turns out that they were mortal enemies and everyone knew it. I am really clueless to all the workplace politics as people are forced to act with civility. Most can see through this stuff. I can't. Not that I don't feel bad for the person who ends up getting the worst of whatever they were fighting about.

Feeling bad about events, as many mistake for empathy, has nothing to do with anticipating the feelings of others when said feelings are not stated. This has absolutely nothing to do with emotions. The words are not interchangeable. I don't even understand how a person could align their emotions to share in those of another.