Autistic empathy

[aspieandconfused_87]

I hardly feel empathy at all. I tend to be either apathetic to the plight of others or find pleasure or humor in their pain. However, I can feel empathy sometimes for certain people who I am close to. But even then sometimes I just can't feel it and do what I mentioned above. I don't think it's my autism that does this though. It's a mix of my personality, and my depression causing me to feel numb most of the time. However this only applies to real people. I feel empathy way more often for fictional characters than I do for real people. I just happen to like fictional characters better than real people in general.

So yeah, that's my take on it. The notion that autistics can't feel empathy is stupid. And if they do like I do, it's because of external factors unrelated to autism.

This right here is me, I can get emotionally touched and involved with fictional characters so much more than with people, but I generally do not like people, but can tolerate most people very well and even put on a smile (fake almost always) but I think this more due to my upbringing and things I have dealt with as a child and more a defense mechanism then anything for me, I don't generally show care or feel empathy or sympathy for most people but people I am close to and loved ones, but I also feel deeply for people I generally like and are nice to me and treat me well, especially females when a girl is upset or hurt it bothers me on a very deep level and I want to help usually (again this is something I would only do with someone I liked platonically or otherwise) but I always keep my guard up to some degree. For instance there is a super sweet asian girl at work and she always make it a point to say bye and hi to me when she comes in and leaves and she treats me like a person and is very easy to talk to, and if she was single I would love to ask her out on a date (but let's be honest I probably wouldn't have the nerve to ask her out, for a variety of reasons), but I know she has a BF or a Fiance who she most likely lives with, so she is just a work friend, but anyways she came in today and seemed not like her usually smiley chipper self and bare said anything, so I messaged her to ask her what was going on with her and to see if she was ok, turns out she was dealing with personal stuff she didn't want to talk about it, at least not with me anyways, I respected that and moved on.

 

[Autistamatic]

I don't even understand how a person could align their emotions to share in those of another

That suggests that like me you lack affective empathy. I can never get "caught up in things" like I see other people do. When everyone else is laughing I don't laugh unless I think something is funny - but affective empathy can have people laughing even if they didn't see or hear the joke - it's an infectious thing.
I can, on the other hand share in someone's joy or sorrow once I've analysed a situation - but rarely before. And I do mean share, not just observe, it just doesn't always come naturally.

 

[TempeFan]

Hang on hang on. I was reading about empathy :

• To empathize with another person, one must recognize the other person's feelings. People with autism have difficulties with "reading" others' faces and body language, and may not fully understand their spoken words.
• To empathize with another person, one must share the other person's hopes, dreams and/or expectations. People with autism may not, for example, share an intense desire for romantic involvement, ambition to rise up in an organization, or fear of embarrassment.
• To empathize with another person, one must have the cognitive and emotional experience to relate personally to another's feelings. People with autism may have cognitive challenges -- or they may simply lack the experience necessary to empathize -- even if they are quite capable of sympathizing.
• To empathize with another person, one must not only feel with that person but also have the tools to show or tell about one's empathic feelings. People with autism may not show or tell about their feelings in ways that are clearly understood by others.
• To empathize with another person, one must share a cultural understanding that displays of empathy are expected and desired. People with autism may not pick up on cultural cues, and thus may not express empathic feelings even when they are felt.

Now I'm wondering if I do empathize? Am I confusing feeling emotions appropriately connected to a story with empathy? I strongly feel the emotions - sometimes to the degree of interfering with everyday life. But am I being empathetic if I'm not relaying what I'm feeling to the person actually going through the ordeal?

Pats, of course, you are still empathic! Just because that author assumes people who lack one ability, such as picking up on social cues, also lacks another ability such as being empathetic, doesn't make it so. That's like saying an empathetic blind person who lost his ability to see social cues is no longer the empathetic person he still is or an empathetic deaf person who lost his ability to hear social cues is no longer the empathetic person he still is or someone stuck in a wheel chair or any other condition is not capable of empathy because their circumstances, language, or culture are different. An NT's inability to accept the fact that others are empathic doesn't change the fact that they are.

It does limit the number of people they can be empathetic with, since like so many people have mentioned It's people who do have the ability to pick up on social cues, but chose not to pick up on ours who won't relate not the other way around.

NTs don't show empathy towards us.

I put "agree" because they generally don't, but I know lots who do, and those are the ones I stay in contact with. Maybe it has something to do with living in California, the land of the liberals.

I KNOW RIGHT?

I generally feel like the world is hostile to us. Sometimes we are treated, at best, like a child, and at worst, with utter disdain.

Yep. Just look at how popular "autistic" has become as a go-to insult. Even if the people using it that way aren't really thinking (no shock there), it reveals the general attitude towards it.

People have been saying for years that Aspies and Autistic people generally don't "do" empathy, it's a complete myth IMO.

 

[LadyBird84]

Whenever I read some where that people with autism have no empathy I feel angry. I really don't think that's the case.

I do however feel:
- Sometimes I'm so overwhelmed by everything around me that I miss the subtle cues about someone's emotional state.
- Often I know someone is upset but am not sure what's going on exactly in which case I will ask them if it's somebody I want to support.
- I feel it very strongly when someone is upset, it's like a presence in the room. Sometimes it's too much to deal with and I don't (deal with it).
- I'm not always sure if people want to talk about it, since my preferred state is usually to pretend everything is fine and I hate it when people interrupt that performance.

So yeah I feel it. Often I'm just not sure what to do with it.

 

[the_tortoise]

It's people who do have the ability to pick up on social cues, but chose not to pick up on ours who won't relate not the other way around.

It's not always a choice for the NTs. They don't understand how we think, or how we feel about things, they can't accurately interpret our cues (e.g. stimming when happy may be misinterpreted as a sign of anxiety or other emotional distress, for example.....or lack of eye contact may be misinterpreted as a desire to be closed off to others when a person is desperately lonely and wants to interact but can't process the visual and auditory senses at the same time, or is just overwhelmed by eye contact, or simply doesn't think to make eye contact because they get nothing from it and it serves no purpose for them; the non-autistic person projects the reasons that would apply to themselves or other non-autistics if they demonstrated similar behaviors because they don't know any better).

I'm not saying non-autistic people who actually willfully refuse to acknowledge cues from and extend understanding towards autistics don't exist (sadly they do), but in the absence of evidence to the contrary my hope is that they are not the majority.

 

[Autistamatic]

I think you're absolutely bang on there @the_tortoise and that's the main theme of the second part. It's true that there are some thoughtless, nasty people who just refuse to engage with us, even if they don't know of our ASD status. They wouldn't care if they knew - they can't read our signals so they respond either with hostility or disdain. I've met more than my fair share of them in my time, to my regret.
There are also NT people at the other end of the scale, who have already taken the leap towards understanding some of our mindset and our differences. People like my wife who worked with severely autistic people long before she met me, and learned to appreciate their inner qualities, even when they were non-verbal and quite detached from the world. People like the psychologists, employment consultants, educators, social workers, nurses, classroom assistants, coaches and care workers who've shown an interest and learned to engage as a result, not to mention so many parents, siblings, friends and partners.
There is a third category of NTs that lie between the two extremes though. Those people who recognise we're different and want to engage with us but don't know how to and they are perhaps the ones who get the most frustrated at their difficulty in doing so. These are the people that our efforts to build bridges are most likely to reach. The ones who are willing to adapt to live with and understand us but currently lack the tools to do so. We're never going to reach the haters - they're too simple minded or wrapped up in their own self importance to even care about changing - but the people in between who have the capacity and the willingness to change are the ones we need to reach out to if we're to stand any chance of making our lives better and our differences accepted.

 

[HidinginPlainSight]

It's true that there are some thoughtless, nasty people who just refuse to engage with us, even if they don't know of our ASD status. They wouldn't care if they knew - they can't read our signals so they respond either with hostility or disdain.

In my experience these sorts of people are generally well liked and popular within their general social circles. At least this is my perception due to their outgoing nature and people who seem to hang off them. There could be another layer of social interaction which I'm not recognizing here and their hanger-ons could in truth have disdain for them. There is no way I could ever grasp all the nuances involved in the behavior of most people. I share in the feelings of none of these people so really I wouldn't know. I do not believe that logically being able to work things out replaces these understandings simply because so much human social behavior defies logic and relying on it will lead to horrible mistakes. I know this first hand by my younger attempts to be part of the NT world. I was successful on a superficial level but could never really become part of it.

And I am a very logical person with a firm grasp of it in practice and theory. Give me a logic puzzle and I will solve it. My logic tree will be as parsimonious and direct as you will likely find on a given subject if asked to create one. This is not a skill that affords you much when conclusions are based on empathetic responses.

Especially in dating, NTs will psychologically and intentionally torture each other to get what they want. They will do this to people they actually do like. They engage in such activity by measuring empathetic responses and testing the limits of what they can inflict. Try to do this without having a well developed empathetic response and don't expect the same results. Your logic will not help you here. Nor will it help you in a multitude of social interactions. It's nice to think that one can compensate of a lack of mirror neurons (or whatever the cause may be) but in practice you are setting yourself up for some failure.

I should also point out that there are many people, like myself, who aren't looking for any bridges to be built. That is one thing that bothers me the most about NTs in general. The belief that the solution to all of life's problems are found in other people. That somehow if a severely "mildly" (to use the clinical term) autistic person such as myself would cease to be autistic if he just had a good group of friends. Or that the lack of friends must be the catalyst for any negative thoughts or feelings that I might have.

I believe that some canyons are far too wide for any bridge to cross. The fact is, that past forced interaction to take care of basic needs (food, shelter) I have little to no interest in engaging the NT world and would rather be left alone by it.

 

[Autistamatic]

Who says you should have to engage with the NT world if you don't want to? Who is anybody to tell someone else they can't?
At the moment the option is not there for many people who DO want to - you see them on here all the time. Unhappy, frustrated, angry, depressed because they cannot be accepted.
Others who are unhappy at never getting hired, jobs not lasting long, being stuck in unrewarding low paid jobs or a permanent benefit cycle so they have difficulties meeting those basic needs of food & shelter.
Don't they deserve a better chance in life? Only by building bridges is there any possibility they will get their chances.
Some people are happy with a "them & us" situation - some even revel in it, but far more would prefer to be playing on an even field so they have the choice to engage or not. It's not about capitulation - not about living by somebody else's rules, it's about acceptance on both sides. That is possible and it will be achieved, maybe not in our lifetimes, but it is a worthy goal for all the people on the spectrum who will come after us.

 

[BeachLife]

Hang on hang on. I was reading about empathy :

• To empathize with another person, one must recognize the other person's feelings. People with autism have difficulties with "reading" others' faces and body language, and may not fully understand their spoken words.
• To empathize with another person, one must share the other person's hopes, dreams and/or expectations. People with autism may not, for example, share an intense desire for romantic involvement, ambition to rise up in an organization, or fear of embarrassment.
• To empathize with another person, one must have the cognitive and emotional experience to relate personally to another's feelings. People with autism may have cognitive challenges -- or they may simply lack the experience necessary to empathize -- even if they are quite capable of sympathizing.
• To empathize with another person, one must not only feel with that person but also have the tools to show or tell about one's empathic feelings. People with autism may not show or tell about their feelings in ways that are clearly understood by others.

• To empathize with another person, one must share a cultural understanding that displays of empathy are expected and desired. People with autism may not pick up on cultural cues, and thus may not express empathic feelings even when they are felt.

Now I'm wondering if I do empathize? Am I confusing feeling emotions appropriately connected to a story with empathy? I strongly feel the emotions - sometimes to the degree of interfering with everyday life. But am I being empathetic if I'm not relaying what I'm feeling to the person actually going through the ordeal?

I would think that you are still being empathetic even though you may not relay it to the other person. This is such a great topic

 

[Autistamatic]

I get and understand empathy, but I have no clue what to do when it comes time to use it.

When I do try, I tend to do the wrong thing.

Many of us do the same. For a lot of us it is not a lack of empathy, an insensitivity to other people's feelings, but a difficulty with deciding the best response or of communicating that response.

 

[offkey]

Empathy and everything that surrounds it is very confusing to me. Like others here, I do feel strong emotions, also when people are considered. Especially when it concerns people whom I deeply care for. But like some of you, especially when it's about someone who's important to me, it becomes even harder to express what I feel.

And at those scarce moments when I finally find words to express myself, it's not unthinkable that I may think I'm very clear and have feelings of relief afterwards, but the person I've been talking to has a totally different experience. I'm not sure if I'm able to grasp and contribute to what NT's believe to be a satisfying (emotional) conversation. And I think this is part of what sympathy/empathy is often believed to be.

I know that some people think I don't feel anything or that I am self-centered in the sense that I don't care about others(' feelings), but it's often the case that I need time to process everything, because I pick up other people's feelings and they are too intense. It takes time to process what has been said, how I feel about it, and what my thoughts are, but the feelings are there.

That's a reason why in some situations, I tend to block emotions and just 'go on'. Like I sometimes need to block other people's energies, because it's too much to process. It's not a matter of intentionally ignoring others' needs, it's self-protection. And I suppose that's when NT's are calling us 'without empathy'.

 

[Propianotuner]

How do you feel about your own sense of empathy?

I'm sure I have a healthy sense of empathy.

Do you feel lacking or do you feel it is one of your strengths?

I feel that it's a confusing subject. It can be a strength but it's heavily context dependent.

Do you think the common perception is accurate or misleading?

I don't merely think it's misleading, I know for a fact that it is. Popular culture is pitifully far behind the zeitgeist, as usual. Popularly speaking the word "empathy" is conflated with compassion, and the distinction between cognitive empathy and compassion is blundered over.

A few things to keep in mind:

-A person's theory of mind doesn't have to be average or above average for them to be compassionate, and/or have sympathetic or somatic responses to perceived emotions and circumstances of others.

-Having ASD may leave us at a disadvantage in developing an adequate theory of mind, i.e. comprehension of the probably emotions experienced by people around us in any given situation, however what passes for "adequate" is hardly what it's vaunted to be. People tend to be very confident about their perceptions but experience tells us, if we're willing to observe, that everyone is wrong all the time about the emotions that others experience.

Theory of mind serves as a social roadmap (at least this is one of, if not the most, important component of it's usefulness), helpful, but hardly scientific and I may be a broken record here in saying this, but it can really never be restated enough that an infinite void separates every two people. My red may very well be your green for all we know. My happy, sad and angry are more than likely dissimilar to your analogous states of mind.

-Expressing empathy and having it are also two distinct things. Judge couldn't have stated it better in the first response to the OP.

IMO, the most critical part of this issue is that it is not that people on the spectrum necessarily lack empathy, so much as that it can be a struggle for us to project it in a meaningful way that Neurotypicals can understand.

Just because we don't communicate it in a conventional way, doesn't mean that we don't have it. Perhaps one of the most critical misconceptions that exist between the Neurotypical and Neurodiverse.

While it's easy for me to express myself in text here, projecting empathy just isn't as easily expressed verbally in person in real-time. For whatever reason the words aren't always there...but the feelings are.

 

[Autistamatic]

Thanks for your eloquent post @Propianotuner . Feedback like that is invaluable.
Much of what you say echoes the points I'm trying to convey in the videos - that we vary in our sensitivities and methods of processing empathy and it's analogues, and that our ways of communicating contribute to the false impressions about our empathy and emotional capacity (as in Judge's quoted post).
The first video describing different ways of feeling and processing empathy will be available later today. The second one covering the communication issue I hope to have ready in a week's time.
Thank you to everybody who has responded to this thread. I am undecided whether I have enough material for a third video on this topic yet, so please continue to add your thoughts if you wish. I really appreciate the input of other ASD people on sensitive topics like this - it's a tremendous help towards ensuring that the Autistamatic channel is as representative of our experiences from within the spectrum as I can make it

 

[Nihil]

My empathy is lacking sometimes. I think it partly has to do with a feeling of superiority, which is probably unhealthy "look at how unemotionally I respond to things! Aren't I so great?" (pretty pathetic way to look at things). But on the other hand it's become hard for me to feel a wide range of emotions. I'm not depressed or anything, though. I think. Definitely would say I've become more emotionally detached.

 

[Autistamatic]

Hi peeps
The new Autistamatic video has just gone live. This is the second in the series on empathy & autism. In it I talk about some of the reasons that may lie behind the impression far too many people hold that Aspies lack both empathy and emotional depth. The discussions we've had on here on the topic have been a great help in making this video and the next one which will round off this short series.
If anybody should think I look like a scruffy nerf herder - it's that time of year again, the nights are drawing in and it's getting cooler so I can let my beard grow out again. It'll look less scruffy next time
Constructive criticism is always welcome.

 

[Monachopia]

Brilliant video! I loved the scenario step-by-step from the perspective of an average response that is usually expected and the one that autistic people usually give. I could have sworn you were describing me! It gave me insight as to why it isn't always the right thing. I try to change the behaviour to fit the more expected response to those that are very close to me but it always feels so fake and I'm not sure I'm fooling anyone. But with people I don't know well, it does back to default. It might just cause an overload if I try to do that with them too. Being around people 'needing' me to act a certain way gets too much and I usually need to hide away for a while. The guessing game is so emotionally draining.

I loved the line "we just want to be accepted as a different kind of normal". Thank you for fighting the good fight for all of us.

 

[Judge]

I feel like I've finally found the ultimate spokesperson to represent our kind. No question. Methodically and practically explaining the Aspie thought process.

"We just want to be accepted as a different kind of normal." - Brilliant. Keep up the good work.

 

[Pats]

Wow. This was so helpful in a problem area for me. My sister gets mad at me because I just can't respond the way she wants me to - by saying how terrible her son in law is, when I see how terrible her daughter was. She had an affair and my sister blames him. She would call me day after day crying because how terrible he was being and I couldn't give her what I knew she wanted and I was getting so upset with all of it - including myself - that I was having meltdowns. Months went on and I just couldn't take it and she was just getting more and more upset with me. She finally said for me to just let her vent and I still have a hard time with that because I see it so differently. I did ask her to tone it down some, though and she tries to keep it within reason.
Anyway - your video explained it so perfectly.
Can't wait for the next one.

 

[Fino]

What music is playing?

 

[Progster]

Spot on - that's exactly how I deal with other people's problems and emotional issues, in a practical, logical way. Then I get told that I "don't seem to pick up on people's moods".