Being autistic might not be an issue if society respected you

[IntoTheVoid]

Sorry for the strange title, but I couldn't figure out anything better.

I've noticed that some people believe being autistic wouldn't be an issue if the society we live in treated autistic people with more respect. Most of the problems with being autistic, they argue, stem from society being unaccommodating. I kind of agree with this idea, at least for high-functioning autistic individuals.

Let me give you a simple example—an autistic person hates big crowds and parties. This person is asked by his family to attend an uncle's birthday party. He refuses, but the family forces him to go anyway.

Now, society might say, "Bro, just overcome your autistic traits, be more normal, and do what’s expected of you!" But the opposite perspective could be, "Maybe society should simply respect that some people don’t enjoy parties and let them be." In this case, the autistic person wouldn't have an issue if his family simply respected his decision.

I first came across this idea when I read Unmasking Autism by Devon Price.

The thing is, some people—including some autistic individuals—don’t seem to agree with this idea. I read some reviews of Unmasking Autism on Goodreads, and a few of them addressed this. One said, "I strongly disagree with Devon’s idea that respect will fix everything. No... Even if everyone accepted autism, it’s still a disability."

Some people seem to disagree even more strongly. A couple of days ago, I saw a post on Reddit that suggested this idea is "dangerous" and "ableist."

But why? I wish people with this opinion would provide more explanations and arguments because I don’t see what’s wrong with it.

So, a question for those who disagree: Why? Can you explain in more detail? And for everyone else, what’s your opinion in general?

 

[NB79]

There is lots of issues, one could be that people in society strive for being 'alphas' and instinctively step on others because they are in that competition even if they don't realize this. Few people i believe really consider others may have some issue and try to be understanding.

 

[Cutesie]

A simple example: My autistic brother loves a certain annual party for people with developmental disabilities. He looks forward to it, calls organizers well in advance to get the details and talks about it for months. When arriving, however, he doesn't want to go inside. The loud noises and amount of people disturb him.

In many cases such as this one, the one with autism isn't bothered by society's expectations. My brother actually likes this event specifically because of how many people there are and all of the fanfare involved. Accommodating him by making it more autistic-friendly would lessen his anxiety but also his fun.

I can provide many more examples relating to him, other auties and myself (not diagnosed). So yes, I'm on the side who believes that being autistic doesn't just mean that we're wired differently; we have deficits that even the most accepting society couldn't "fix".

 

[lunarious]

The crime-rate in Asperger's society, and maybe all autists is lower when we compare that to the rest of population, says Gilberg and Gilberg AFAIR.

All people autists or non-autists have to compare themselves to our Highest example. In my case I want to compare myself with The Prophet Jesus and Mohammed. Or any High achieving person. And when I meet an obstacle i have to think about what F.E.A.R. translates to me.

FEAR has two abbreviations as far as I'm concerned (or more):
- Face Everything And Rise.
- Forget everything and run.

Fear is the cost of Generosity, sometimes; uncalled for and cruel Pain. But all good people are generous. So i might be scared of giving it all i got, but i have to be brave. ... So it is easier for autists to be "better", but anyone can be better. In the end The Deity is the best of Judges, and only He can judge me. Scientifically i want everyone to Judge me.

I had to google FEAR. BTW how do i make lists?

 

[Hypnalis]

@IntoTheVoid

The different viewpoints, while mutually exclusive, aren't important to us as individuals.

In terms of actions:
* Committing to "Society must change" will make your life objectively worse. It's a valid adult life-choice, but not one I'd take.
* OTOH the more society changes the better it will be for you, so putting a small amount of effort into it might make sense even while you're working on improving your "NT-interaction skills".

IMO the same applies to "ASD is a disorder/disability" vs "We are what we are - it's something, but it's not a disability or a disorder.
Some of us need help, and if they have to conform to the terminology of the day to get it, clearly that's what they should do.

This doesn't answer your question exactly, but that's not an accident. It's very popular these days to take impractical views, particularly in the "Society must change" domain. But it's very easy for these to turn into pointless conflicts which help nobody.

Here's a quote (from a very interesting guy) that's used a lot:

"There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." - Thomas Sowell

Note that It implies "There are two (or more) sides to (almost) everything.",
but it excludes the notably stupid splice: "... therefore the best compromise is exactly in the middle."


As for the noisy party:
The person being pressured should use the social skills they've been working on (in this case, understanding of yourself and your valid preferences; measured assertiveness; clear, calm communication) to politely explain that they will not attend the party (but ask "please greet uncle for me" (and maybe have a card and/or present if the others do)

The most important part of that is the "valid preferences" part. That's where your personal tradeoffs for things like social events come from.
And FWIW don't engage in a negotiation: if large noisy gatherings are unpleasant, you'll have to explain it once or maybe twice. After that it's a "no means no" scenario, but say why.
And OFC be polite - if you ever want to attend something you should make it clear every time you refuse that the door is open for activities that suit you better.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I think this makes sense to a point, but the flip side is that society often respects those with few real values. And since society isn't one thing, it doesn't make sense to seek its approval, though that might be tempting at times.

If we respect ourselves, the right people will probably respect us, too. Respect as a demand probably won't work out. And sometimes disapproval is a form of approval, when others don't value love, compromise, communication, or other things that make relationships work.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This is a very interesting thread. I am familiar with the book you're referring to, as well as to others which have similar ideas and content.

I believe it's something of both. There are things which would be challenging for me, no matter how many accommodations there'd be. A large gathering, where I can wear my headphones without worries, stim freely and retreat to a quiet room whenever I need to would still be exhausting, simply because there are many people present, there WILL be noises because humans can't just communicate with no noise at all, etc.

Society would have created the best possible conditions for me, but I would still struggle more than most others - by no fault of anyone, not me, not society.

There are many situations in which I wish for more public acceptance, more standard accommodations from which I believe everyone, NT and ND alike, would benefit, and especially more individuality on the job market. Different work schedules, a better work-life balance and the respect thereof, the possibility of people working according to their own needs and skills, would benefit everyone, in my opinions. That's not limited to us NDs, but every person has a different skills/needs profile - starting by the individual chronotype (= preferred sleeping patterns, phases where we are most productive, etc).

I believe that in that way, society limits itself by forcing rigid and very demanding work schedules on all employees, with a focus on teamwork and communication in far more areas than technically would be necessary, while an individualized approach could benefit everyone and even increase productivity.
But that's going a bit off topic.

Long story short, I believe that I would still be autistic and have more struggles than the average NT in a world full of standard accommodations. There might be less struggle, but some things just can't be changed that much. Meeting a friend is exhausting for me, even if that friend is completely accepting of every trait I have - simply because there's another person present. But then, I also love meeting friends and attending social gatherings, as long as I'm in the right mindset for it that day.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

@IntoTheVoid

In terms of actions:
* Committing to "Society must change" will make your life objectively worse. It's a valid adult life-choice, but not one I'd take.

Well, I kinda understand the idea that "You can't change the society, but you can change yourself" and I understand where it comes from. I understand that blaming society for all my struggles in life is probably how to make my own life difficult.

At the same time, I think it's important to address issues in our society and not pretending they are OK.

When I try to make an extreme example... imagine you are still a student attending a school and you are being brutally bullied. Now, applying the idea that "you just have to change, working on you. You can't change our society and you have no control over the behaviour of others. So just accept this is how it is." would be - of course - a little weird. It's ok to say "no, these bullies are bad and they should stop."

Sometimes your problems in your life actually ARE the society's fault

 

[lunarious]

Sometimes your problems in your life actually ARE the society's fault

Word

 

[Cutesie]

"There are two things about which we shouldn't worry: 1) about things that we can do something - just do it; 2) about things that we can't do anything - why worry?" - Rabbi Michel of Zlotchov (died 1781), Hasidic leader and thinker

 

[IntoTheVoid]

"There are two things about which we shouldn't worry: 1) about things that we can do something - just do it; 2) about things that we can't do anything - why worry?" - Rabbi Michel of Zlotchov (died 1781), Hasidic leader and thinker

isn't this basically stoicism?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Well, I kinda understand the idea that "You can't change the society, but you can change yourself" and I understand where it comes from. I understand that blaming society for all my struggles in life is probably how to make my own life difficult.

At the same time, I think it's important to address issues in our society and not pretending they are OK.

When I try to make an extreme example... imagine you are still a student attending a school and you are being brutally bullied. Now, applying the idea that "you just have to change, working on you. You can't change our society and you have no control over the behaviour of others. So just accept this is how it is." would be - of course - a little weird. It's ok to say "no, these bullies are bad and they should stop."

Sometimes your problems in your life actually ARE the society's fault

That's true. Balance is key. Some things are your own "fault" or at least responsibility, other things are others' fault, and some things are no one's fault but simply stem from different needs and expectations.

I believe that a victim mentality is in most cases not healthy. It's one thing to say "these things are not my fault, I did nothing wrong here, but I will try to get into a better environment where I will thrive more", and a whole other thing to say "everyone's against me, no matter what I do I will fail, everyone else should change their behavior while I change nothing at all".

I'm not saying that people can't have valid reasons and experiences to think in the second way. But it's just mostly not healthy and won't result in a happier place, long-term. It's very rare that, suddenly, everyone around you just changes their attitude and behaves differently. Even though things may not be your fault, it's still up to you to create a good and happy life for yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Now, creating a happier place for yourself can very well mean talking to your supervisor and asking for accommodations, or switch jobs altogether, or breaking off contact to a non-accepting and judgmental friend/family member. It can very well involve to ask people to be more accommodating and accepting towards you. But waiting for society to do that on its own probably won't work long-term.

 

[Cutesie]

isn't this basically stoicism?

I'm not familiar with stoicism. The quote is a great encapsulation - with a slightly-different focus - of what some of us are saying: Complaining about the world is only helpful and healthy when it leads to positive change. The topic of how much our problems are society's fault vs. our makeup can be interesting, but is usually just cause for stress and depression. (Edit: By the way, I wrote this comment at the same time as the one by @AuroraBorealis.)

 

[lunarious]

"There are two things about which we shouldn't worry: 1) about things that we can do something - just do it; 2) about things that we can't do anything - why worry?" - Rabbi Michel of Zlotchov (died 1781), Hasidic leader and thinker

If you can do it, do it. If you can't seemingly get it done, also do it.

Anything is possible, but i'm impoosible

 

[Mary Terry]

No matter how accepting or accommodating the world is, it will never enable my severely autistic nephew to drive a car, cook on a stove or verbalize. Sadly, some people's limitations are fixed and permanent.

 

[lunarious]

No matter how accepting or accommodating the world is, it will never enable my severely autistic nephew to drive a car, cook on a stove or verbalize. Sadly, some people's limitations are fixed and permanent.

Sadly, maybe.

Your nephew or anyone should have a good life, and a good death when that time comes.

Death can come anytime, wheither we are prepared for it or not. ...

So if anyone can't have a good life (because of bully), let him embrace a good death and good fight against the bully. He might win a good life.

 

[Cutesie]

Sadly, maybe.

Your nephew or anyone should have a good life, and a good death when that time comes.

Death can come anytime, wheither we are prepared for it or not. ...

So if anyone can't have a good life (because of bully), let him embrace a good death and good fight against the bully. He might win a good life.

Is there a reason that we're suddenly talking about death here?

 

[lunarious]

Yes. Why do you think?

This Lady is worried about her nephew.

editadd: @Cutesie

 

[Magna]

I don't remember who said it or where I read it, but it was an autistic person who said something to the effect of: "I'm not autistic when I'm by myself." Meaning, the person doesn't have the challenges and frustrations with dealing with "the world" when they're alone. They're free to be themselves without limitation, criticism, obstacle, etc. They feel "normal" when they're alone.

Meaning, just as the topic of this thread suggests, the biggest challenges autistics often face in this world aren't issues within themselves, they're in trying to live in an NT world when they're not NT. It's like being physically handicapped but living in a world that isn't at all handicap accessible.

 

[Hypnalis]

Well, I kinda understand the idea that "You can't change the society, but you can change yourself" and I understand where it comes from. I understand that blaming society for all my struggles in life is probably how to make my own life difficult.

At the same time, I think it's important to address issues in our society and not pretending they are OK.

When I try to make an extreme example... imagine you are still a student attending a school and you are being brutally bullied. Now, applying the idea that "you just have to change, working on you. You can't change our society and you have no control over the behaviour of others. So just accept this is how it is." would be - of course - a little weird. It's ok to say "no, these bullies are bad and they should stop."

Sometimes your problems in your life actually ARE the society's fault

Your example is an example in itself.

Doing what you can to accommodate yourself to the real world has no connection with the example as stated.
Actually the opposite: the skillset for dealing with people trying to apply external pressure is something many ASDs would benefit from learning and applying.

IRL "Change the world" is consistently ineffective at dealing with the genuinely bad people at the extremes.
And as a principle it's notoriously prone to "The law of unintended consequences" (which lately, and quite strangely, is back to being called "the Cobra effect").

On the other hand, mandated safety standards, requirements for wheelchair access, and Government-funded justice systems have worked well over the years. When we become a category deserving of support from society (hopefully in the next 20 years or so), I'm confident some of us will benefit.

My position is to do what works well, in proportion to its effectiveness, without selecting any actions, or allocating any resources, based on ideological preferences.

To me, your closing line as the same feel as the polarizing example, for much the same reason.
It's true, and it's true in many more domains than ASD. But what does it tell us to do?
How long will it take to get results?

I still prefer the pragmatic approach: Consider all options; Do what works.