Being autistic might not be an issue if society respected you

[Mary Terry]

Sadly, maybe.

Your nephew or anyone should have a good life, and a good death when that time comes.

Death can come anytime, wheither we are prepared for it or not. ...

So if anyone can't have a good life (because of bully), let him embrace a good death and good fight against the bully. He might win a good life.

Thank you. My nephew does have a good life, he is safe and secure, he is loved by our family and the community at large, and he has his own special interests which we encourage. He loves listening to classical music, doing jigsaw puzzles, watching TV game shows and NASCAR races. He also likes to go the grocery store with me, and we go out to eat several times every month. He loves Mexican fajitas!

 

[lunarious]

...
But what does it tell us to do?
How long will it take to get results?

I still prefer the pragmatic approach: Consider all options; Do what works.

People don't tell me what pragmatic translates to, and I've not been succesful in finding it despite that my teeth itch.

If you ask me, me for example, i'd argue showing more kindness to some people at least. ... We want to systemize kindness. Yet we do not want to be unfair to individuals.

So "We" must break our system... in favour of a Systemic Reset.

Am I wrong?

 

[lunarious]

Thank you. My nephew does have a good life, he is safe and secure, he is loved by our family and the community at large, and he has his own special interests which we encourage. He loves listening to classical music, doing jigsaw puzzles, watching TV game shows and NASCAR races. He also like to go the grocery store with me, and we go out to eat several times every month. He loves Mexican fajitas!

I was worried. Thank You.

 

[Cutesie]

@lunarious, I wondered at your comment about death because nothing suggested that @Mary Terry's nephew is miserable. You may not be around them, but there are a lot of autistics who are like that. I've known dozens of people in both the high-functioning and low-functioning groups. [In many cases, the very-low-functioning ones - who aren't expected to try very hard in life, and who don't know that "not supposed to be this way" - are the happiest.]

The final sentence was written in haste based on a couple of anecdotal examples, ignoring even my own witnessed examples of low-functioning autistics who are just as upset about their situation as the higher-functioning ones. I'm glad that @Mary Terry's nephew is from the fortunate ones.

 

[jsilver256]

this is a debate in the Deaf community as well. Deaf culture is a culture that has its own language, its own way of thinking, its own community.

I think the primary reason it is even a debate is because deafness and ASD are among a fairly rare group of conditions where it arguably shapes who the person is. Cure the person and ... the person is gone.

I have spinal arthritis. It's a disability that needs some accommodations/treatments. You'll never hear this debate over arthritis because ... guess what, it's not self, it's getting in the way of the true self.

 

[lunarious]

@lunarious, I wondered at your comment about death because nothing suggested that @Mary Terry's nephew is miserable. You may not be around them, but there are a lot of autistics who are like that. I've known dozens of people in both the high-functioning and low-functioning groups. In many cases, the very-low-functioning ones - who aren't expected to try very hard in life, and who don't know that "not supposed to be this way" - are the happiest.

Very true.

I wanted to fight but i was told to calm down, and this requires intelligence. You know @tree works for CIA? ... (edit) that's Central Intelligence Agency.

Seriously. But she doesn't agree.

 

[Cutesie]

I think the primary reason it is even a debate is because deafness and ASD are among a fairly rare group of conditions where it arguably shapes who the person is. Cure the person and ... the person is gone.

I've heard this said, but don't understand. How does deafness shape the person? Are we speaking only of someone born deaf? Is it because it affects every part of the person? What, then, of MS or ALS? Are there other conditions that you know are on that list?

 

[Boogs]

The idea of society changing or not: without change, there is no change - i.e. if they don't change, our experience of them won't change. We may gain self awareness (via a diagnosis) but beyond finding coping mechanisms we're pretty much stuck with being who and what we are.

But I think respect is the wrong word. If we insisted society respected us, then society could quite reasonably expect us to respect all of it, however distasteful we may find it (anyone fancy respecting a Putin, a Trump, or a Hitler, etc?).

Rather look to physical disabilities. Few know anything realistic about autism, someone with severe mobility issues is far more familiar a disability to most people. And yet we still discriminate against them in many ways. It's been a long slow slog of educating people about physical disabilities that's slowly brought some physical disabilities into a new and healthier light. So I'd say that education about autism (or better, all diversities) is the key to reducing the problems autistic people experience. And not just schooling, but media too plays a powerful role in people's perceptions. And culture too, maybe even more so? Art, literature, performance...

I'd say the ideal way to be would be when autistic people are considered just another sort of people, but the problem is more pervasive - what about all other minority groups? Why autistic people only, as the problems are more to do with the majority than with the autistic, and the same issues effect all sorts of other minority groups (even if for different reasons - religion, race, language, culture, whatever).

 

[lunarious]

I gave you thumb up, hopefully you may be good-hearted as you say. However i wouldn't be so sure it is intelligent. But hopefully you are persevering as good-hearted.

We can find out. But i'm not engagin, more than this post. Right?

 

[Boogs]

I gave you thumb up, hopefully you may be good-hearted as you say. However i wouldn't be so sure it is intelligent. But hopefully you are persevering as good-hearted.

Um, not meaning to be rude or anything, but I don't understand you.
I never mentioned being good hearted???

We can find out. But i'm not engagin, more than this post. Right?

Well feel free not to explain what you mean, but I'm afraid that post was totally lost on me. Intelligent? Persevering?
I was merely talking about the OP, not myself (beyond expressing my own opinion on it).

P.S. By replying you were engaging already, but hardly worth arguing over.

 

[DrBadStrings]

I've read Price's book that you mention and I've read a lot about the medical vs social models of disability and this either or debate to me misses the mark. I think that it's a grey area in between where yes there are certainly many things society does that causes hardships for those on the Spectrum that they could eliminate/improve that would make our lives much better. And yes if there were more understanding of Autism amongst the NT general population, including respect, then things would get much better for those on the spectrum. But the fact remains that there are some on the spectrum where their level of needs and circumstances is a disability.

As an extreme example, if you are high needs, non verbal, and have to be wearing full sound dampening ear muffs just to go out in public. No amount of respect and understanding is going to change the fact that you are very disabled in society. It doesn't mean the person doesn't still have value, and that they can't lead a meaningful life, but they'll never be able to go it alone no matter how much society understands. In this case it is a clear disability issue.

On the flip side would be someone like myself. I didn't know I was on the spectrum until 4 months ago at age 42. I was just the slightly odd guy that really hated crowds and busy noisy environments. I always just thought of myself as a very smart introvert. Those very close to me, I found out after the fact, had their suspicions I was autistic but never said anything. Those that didn't know me just thought I was the nerdy odd guy but I passed for neurotypical. Despite always feeling like I was a fraud wearing a mask. For myself, I have very low needs that I can manage on my own, especially now that I'm aware I'm autistic and have started paying more attention to how various things in my environment effect me. In my case very minor changes in society along with better understanding would completely eliminate autism causing me any issues in my life. In my case I don't consider it or myself a person living with a disability because of being on the spectrum.

So that's a lot of word salad to say it's not one or the other. It's not Disabled vs differently abled. Folks on the spectrum fall somewhere in between dependent on their level of needs and circumstances. Which makes sense give that autism is a spectrum so you can't look at it, or anything coming from it as being black and white but many many shades of gray.

Certainly more than 50. I hate that book.

 

[jsilver256]

I've heard this said, but don't understand. How does deafness shape the person? Are we speaking only of someone born deaf? Is it because it affects every part of the person? What, then, of MS or ALS? Are there other conditions that you know are on that list?

I am profoundly Deaf and nonverbal myself. The best I can explain it is that all of human contact and much of human culture is about speaking. When you are removed from that and develop your own language, culture, etc., then your identity becomes a part of that, and curing deafness threatens to take all that away.

As hard as it is to believe, most of us don't find much advantageous in being able to hear, other than the obvious language barriers.

 

[Hypnalis]

People don't tell me what pragmatic translates to, and I've not been succesful in finding it despite that my teeth itch.

If you ask me, me for example, i'd argue showing more kindness to some people at least. ... We want to systemize kindness. Yet we do not want to be unfair to individuals.

So "We" must break our system... in favour of a Systemic Reset.

Am I wrong?

Here's a dictionary definition of the meaning of "pragmatic". It matches my intended meaning exactly:
Practical, concerned with making decisions and actions that are useful in practice, not just theory.

What I wanted to capture was that for ASDs it's ok to prefer some approaches to making our lives easier over others, but that we should look for good outcomes, rather than outcomes that conform to a specific approach.

By "approach" is mean principles like the two main ones the OP mentioned. Paraphrased:
1. Change yourself to make interacting with the world easier
2. Change the world to make things easier in a way that doesn't require changing yourself.

BTW I understand that there's an interesting theoretical difference behind those two approaches, and it's fun to philosophize about such things.
But when it comes to practical results, I do both: I look for the best results for the effort expended to achieve them. Then think about where it fits within the competing theories later

I think your "systematic reset" matches my "change the world" approach. I don't disagree with that, but that doesn't mean I'd exclude "change yourself".

And I certainly think that more kindness and clearer communication would be good for everyone, including (ASDs). Both of those conflict a little with innate human behaviors though, so it will be a slow process.

 

[lunarious]

I am profoundly Deaf and nonverbal myself. The best I can explain it is that all of human contact and much of human culture is about speaking. When you are removed from that and develop your own language, culture, etc., then your identity becomes a part of that, and curing deafness threatens to take all that away.

As hard as it is to believe, most of us don't find much advantageous in being able to hear, other than the obvious language barriers.

Edit: What does she say?

 

[lunarious]

...
I think your "systematic reset" matches my "change the world" approach. I don't disagree with that, but that doesn't mean I'd exclude "change yourself".

And I certainly think that more kindness and clearer communication would be good for everyone, including (ASDs). Both of those conflict a little with innate human behaviors though, so it will be a slow process.

Are you ASD? Or Asperger? Or a Mustafa? Like me?

Because I don't think you'd understand, and I do not want to give you this privelge. In the past, when I was young i used to say "i do not become friends with anyone unless i fight them first". I fought the Government and they owe me X. Whereas everyone else were cowards, because upto this day at 37 y.o. I do not have one friend (because they are sheep). The government and society, mostly doesn't earn my respect.

Why would you be different? ... Because you government or not must acknowledge my Strength. And it's not as if I was or am a bully. Neither that I was incapeable. ... in my faith, pretty rythmic we say: "Allah postphones aka delays, but does not forget". I'm not Allah but a Royal Gard. For Real. After long service to people whom need help...

Edit: In order to help anyone, you must be better or stronger than them. Or how?

 

[jsilver256]

Edit: What does she say?

She's not using American Sign Language, but my inference just going from grammatical commonalities is that she remembers him from a long time ago from when he saved her from bullies and is trying to make him remember that (hence the flashback scene).

My guess is that the bent finger to the head is "remember" and the gesture towards him is "give-to-you" or "feed-you"

 

[lunarious]

I edited my signature

And thank you @jsilver256 for explanation ...

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Ok, guys... I kinda forgot to thank you for your responses in the first post of this thread.
So thanks
Some of your insights are really interesting.. Will maybe read it later again and thing about each point made

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Thank you. My nephew does have a good life, he is safe and secure, he is loved by our family and the community at large, and he has his own special interests which we encourage. He loves listening to classical music, doing jigsaw puzzles, watching TV game shows and NASCAR races. He also likes to go the grocery store with me, and we go out to eat several times every month. He loves Mexican fajitas!

Lunarious,

But many people like her nephew have no family, who live miserable lives in group homes under constant pressure to behave more NT.

I am delighted when it works out well, but in many circumstances it does not.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

. In many cases, the very-low-functioning ones - who aren't expected to try very hard in life, and who don't know that "not supposed to be this way" - are the happiest.

Where did you ever get this idea, that people with level 3 autism are happy?

Having worked for over 20 years in the developmental disabilities community I do not see profoundly disabled people with autism happy because of their limited understanding. They are usually unhappy because of a severely limited life and not receiving he care they need.