BF disputes EVERYTHING I say

[sisselcakes]

I don't suppose you have tried to tell him, "we don't have a communication problem".

Allistics often say things like "I'd rather be happy than right" and "you just have to be right, don't you".

Well, yeah, I want to know the truth about things, and I want the person I am connecting with to know it too. Or I want them to want to know the truth about things. I'd be unhappy not knowing.

What does "allistics" mean?

 

[sisselcakes]

I learn so much from these threads. That might be why i don't read them every day... I need to take breaks to integrate things.

Most people would probably say I mask my autistic traits very well. In fact, some have argued that they don't exist.... but not those people who have lived with me.

Look, if you present a point of view, I consider that an open door to expressing my own view. Not maliciously. Not because I think that I, and only I, have all the answers. But because thoughts are always stewing in my head and if you open the door to discourse on something I've thought about, I'm going to talk about it. Not only that, if I've given any thought at all to the topic and if it, heaven forbid, deals with one of my personal VALUES, I'm going to speak my truth clearly.

At this point I'm usually accused of thinking I'm always right.
At this point my daughter or my ex would roll their eyes and start speaking defensively. (Which makes me nuts, I never quite know when they're going to bring all that negative emotion into the mix and I don't always remain calm in the face of that.)

What started as something that, to me, was no more emotionally-charged than a statement like "cookies are sweet," can end in tears and someone melting down.

I hate this whole thing. It's that one cowpie on the road that I step in, again and again, despite decades of navel-gazing.

For the record, when I make those definitive statements I never do so with malice, an intent to control, a need to be right, OR a lack of disrespect.

Cookies are sweet, in my experience. By saying so I don't rule out the possibility of the existence of bitter cookies....

Your example here is intriguing. It's so mind-blowing to me how difficult it is to bridge the gap in communication- that one person has the simple intention of stating an objective fact for the sake of being factual while the other person feel attacked because their point of view isn't validated.

As an NT who generally has a great ability to imagine what someone else is thinking and feeling and still struggles to bridge that gap, I sympathize with how tough it must be to live in a world that oftentimes makes no sense.

 

[sisselcakes]

Today was a very good example of why I am so exacting about wanting people around me to be aware of facts, and one that may be useful to hear for any non-aspies reading this thread (I'm sure this sort of thing comes up in other aspie-non aspie relationships).

My family has a lot of very gossipy non-aspies that don't care so much about the truth. They tend to discuss things among themselves for months/years without checking facts and can build up an entire backstory that they base other assumptions/opinions on that the object of the discussion is unaware of until things explode.

Today I received multiple long, very angry text messages from my sister accusing me of being treated unfairly by our parents and everyone else and listing multiple 'examples' to back up her claim and saying she needed time away from the family as a result, etc. This is what I refer to as a 'normie explosion' (sort of an equivalent to an 'autistic meltdown') .

After calming her down and trying to work out exactly what had happened, I realised that several members of my family had decided that my parents and brother had paid for all my driving lessons (I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum that I'm learning to drive finally) and multiple other things in the past. This was based on one person (we'll call person A) overhearing that my brother was 'giving me money for christmas for driving'. In reality, my brother and I always give one another gifts and this year he gave me cash instead to put towards lessons and in November instead of December since I had to book them earlier. He helped me out by doing so, as I didn't have the money at hand in November, but my sister and parents received a gift of the same value so it wasn't unfair. But person A took this to mean my brother was paying for all my lessons (which so far is about £1600) and didn't bother to check if this were true. They then told person B in the family. Then they told my sister and pointed out how unfair that was and asked if she was concerned.

Person A and other gossips in the family then apparently discussed other times in my life where I was in financial trouble (after uni I was close to bankruptcy due to student debts/loans) and assumed without checking that my parents had helped out because I moved back home. In reality, I was paying my parents above local rate rent each month (since they were trying to pay off their mortgage) as well as money towards other things. I moved back home because I broke up with my ex and had trust issues that meant I didn't want a share another flat with a total stranger. In financial terms, it actually cost me more to move back home. My parents did very well out of it. So the reality was the opposite. But again, they didn't check facts and this has clearly been an assumption held among certain people in the family for a while now.

Another assumption was that I received money from my parents towards college/university. I guess because I have such a strict routine (and plan ahead years in advance) that I manage to live on much less money than the average person and they simply can't comprehend how anyone could live their own expensive middle class lifestyle AND pay off tens of thousands in debts while not earning much. So again, they assumed that I must have had help from somewhere and didn't bother to check the facts.

My family attended a cousin's wedding last weekend that required staying in another part of the country for a couple of nights. Again, it was assumed that my parents paid for this. Again, they were wrong but no one asked me. If anything, I go out of my way to pay for not only my own expenses but also spend far more on other people when it comes to gifts or money for other things. I don't keep a tally of what is spent (I'm only considering it now due to the issue coming up), but I know that I am far more generous than those in my family who earn a LOT more and really have no right to complain. Due to the issue of money coming up in the past, I am paranoid about anyone ever buying me anything, as I know someone will throw it back in my face at a later date. I could spend £1000 on someone, but if certain family members see someone paying for drinks or a meal then the assumption will be made that I am getting spoiled and not paying my way. No one will check the facts.

I have been trading stocks for several years (mainly out of neccessity due to the above situation, now as a hobby). I need a lot of time alone anyway, but I also need to focus when trading and will therefore spend evenings staring at graphs rather than sitting downstairs with other people watching mindless crap on TV for hours. I'm very open about this and have (politely) explained multiple times over the years that I have no interest in watching TV (especially not the sort of thing other people choose to watch - they wouldn't enjoy what I prefer to watch either) and would rather be trading. If there is a family gathering or if people come over for dinner, then I will happily sit and chat with them while they are in the house. But if they come over to just sit in front of the TV or watch a film, then I will go elsewhere as they aren't talking and it's a waste of time. I always ask about their plans and hang around to say hello and chat for a bit first, to be friendly. But I won't sit there for 2-3 hours staring at the TV like they do. But instead it is assumed that I must dislike people or have a problem with them. I've never said anything to suggest that and no one has ever asked me to check. They assume and take that assumption as fact.

There are other assumptions that were made that I won't bother describing, as the above is enough. The point is the non-aspies in my family don't check facts and instead just make up stories in their head that are then shared with other non-aspies who also don't check facts. This leads to tons of gossiping and drama behind the scenes that ends up negatively affecting me (and other people who get dragged into it). I have heard the same sort of gossiping behind other people's backs, but when trying to correct their assumptions I am considered blunt, controlling, rude, etc (all the labels given to aspies on a regular basis). They decide a story and then hate to be corrected.

In the end, I simply spammed photos of all my bank statements to my sister showing payments made for driving and everything else. Fortunately, I keep statements for years so I have hard proof that all the gossip is utter rubbish. But I shouldn't have to even worry about this stuff. I've now wasted several hours of the day sorting this drama out. I don't get this from the aspies in my family. We all tend to expect this sort of crap from people and assume everything is a lie/exaggeration unless there is real evidence (which is normally the case).

Edit: Apologies for the rant, but as it was relevant to the discussion I hope it's a useful example of why aspies are so fussy about being accurate and why we find it exhausting to be around non-aspies at times.

It's a very useful example and I have an interesting reference to make but have got to go to bed or I'm going to be useless at work tomorrow. Will send it in the next couple of days.

 

[Sid Delicious]

"I apparently don't know how these threads work because I came on here to see new messages and had missed your earlier one. Ducking behind sofa made me chuckle. Don't worry. I won't throw anything at you, though I've wanted to do that a few times with my bf."

No worries! I tend to visit the site, respond to things, then forget entirely that I wrote anything!

"You ask a fair question- how can I believe something that isn't based on logic? Well, this makes me wonder what exactly is logic? Admittedly, I get emotional and perhaps a logical person would say "irrational". I don't know how to explain it other than I get very angry at injustice. It's ultimately a values thing, rather than a logic vs. emotional thing but I think we PERCEIVE it differently. I've seen on here that many members are sensitive to injustice and my bf is as well. He seems to see it differently."

For me logical problem solving means deciding on a specific goal and then deciding the most efficient way to reach that goal. From what I've experienced in my own life, I think the main difference is that aspies will see/feel suffering just as strongly (if not more so) than a non-aspie. We automatically jump into problem fixing mode to try and change it. But the logical method of fixing the problem may seem wrong/insane/cold to someone who can only see 1-2 steps ahead rather than the 50+ that an aspie might see.

As an example, the immigration issue is a very emotive subject. I'm going to play devil's advocate here, but both an aspie and a non-aspie would hear/see about people suffering and wanting to flee a third world country. The immediate response of many non-aspies would likely be to let the person into the first world. Problem solved. They see the immediate faces of the first group of people and want to help (which I understand, as it's human nature to want to stop suffering). On the other side you have non-aspies who see the immediate effects of immigration on their own country and also respond emotionally and demand they leave. Problem solved for them, too.

An aspie would look at the whole picture and think years ahead, beyond the faces of the group of people on TV/wherever. As a rule, we are very good at seeing patterns and trends. We would see the subsequent waves of people wanting to escape in the future. We would see the effects on both the first and third world countries a century down the line and ask whether just letting everyone move would actually help solve the issue? We would go through all the boring data to understand what is actually going on (rather than what the media/politicians say, which is rarely accurate). We would ask what is causing the problem in the third world in the first place and how can it be fixed? Or what is the solution that will help the most people in the long run? Do you let an entire population leave a third world country? At what point does it resolve anything? What happens when the first world country then turns into a third world country? Who is then left to send overseas aid to help the original country (which still has the same issues as before, but now anyone who had the skills to leave has left)? Or, if it benefits the first world country, what happens when the third world is drained of all human resources (I think they call this 'brain drain')? The logical solution to help the most people in the long run may not be to just invite everyone to move into the first world. I'm not entirely sold on any argument yet. But I have seen data that suggests it is cheaper to help people closer to the country they moved from and would therefore benefit the most people. Helping to educate a third world population to support itself out of poverty does seem to be a better long term solution than just inviting all the educated people to leave and move elsewhere to get a better lifestyle. I'm sure there are additional arguments on both sides of the fence, but as it's not something I've researched in any depth I'll leave that to others. My point is, the immediately obvious solution may not be the best one. But it can seem cold and uncaring to disagree with the obvious short term solution and suggest a longer term strategy if other people can't do the same logical-thinking-ahead. Both the aspie and non-aspie could have the same long term ethical goal, but one will think of immediately obvious answer and the other will think of the whole picture and entire populations over many years.

"Do you think aspies miss nuances in meta-communication (i.e. propaganda) or am I just assuming this because my bf doesn't see things from MY perspective? I'm trying to avoid getting too political here, but let's put it this way, I'm very sensitive to the message, the message that isn't explicitly stated- that lies in between the spoken word. My bf seems kind of clueless in this sense, at least from my point of view."

This is a difficult one for me to answer, as I studied marketing strategy as part of my degree and I can see through advertisements and propaganda a mile away. I think many of us begin life far too trusting, as we assume everyone thinks the way we do. Then with age we become more critical and untrusting. I personally don't trust anything I hear and will either ignore or question whatever I'm told (especially by politicians, media hacks, adverts on TV, etc). I don't have time to fact check everything, so my default mode is ignore (I rarely watch TV now). I don't always see body language if I'm not focusing on it carefully, but I do immediately get a very strong sense of the other person's emotion. I don't have much of a filter for this and will start to feel how they feel before I even notice what's happening. I literally absorb and mimic however they feel, which can take me by surprise if I'm not paying attention. I'm not sure if that would count, but I can tell if someone is enjoying lying to the audience or simply arguing based on emotions over logic (90% of people on TV) as I feel it. I struggle to watch drama/theatre for this reason (unless the actor is using very good method acting and actually experiencing the emotions directly, then I feel nothing).

In terms of message... I may briefly hear/see the message, but that is quickly overtaken by my brain compiling all the facts I know about the subject and building a big picture out of them to decide whether the message is accurate, whether it is the best solution, etc. By the time the advert/speech is over, I will have jumped through multiple layers of problem solving and may be thinking of something entirely different. The original message may have been forgotten or no longer seems important, as I will now have a complex brainstorming session going on in my head about the general topic and one person's message is now insignificant. Maybe ask your boyfriend to map out what he is thinking and why and it may help the two of you to understand one another better (or it may just be interesting to see in visual terms how each of you thinks). You'll need a huge whiteboard!

 

[Sid Delicious]

.... continued from above....

"Okay, so back to your comments. Yes. For us NT's, emotion, feeling, and intuition is valued; BUT the kicker is we think we are being logical. LOL. Talking with all of you on here has been a mind-opening experience. I enjoy trying to understand a different way of thinking even though I can't really make my brain do it"

It's likely that the both of you have the same end goal in wanting to help resolve a problem, which I think is what you should use as the focus for any conversation. Your values are likely the same in many areas. You just have different methods of enacting them.

"That sucks as a kid feeling like people were lying to you. Must have been confusing. Your reflection really helps me try to grasp a different point of view. I actually think I understand what you mean about having to lie just to deal socially. It must be tiring to be so intentional and have to be fake for an extended period of time."

I'm sure non-aspies go through similar life altering realisations. Finding out that Santa doesn't exist can be traumatic for everyone!

"You say that your brain screams that it's black when people tell you it's white (or something like that). I feel like I would lose it if I had to do that. Doesn't that create a feeling of pressure that you have to somehow release? It's so interesting to me that you say you couldn't do this with your partner. It would be too tiring. I feel exactly the same way. I can't deal with the constant "arguing". It wears me down. This observation makes me feel a lot more compassionate toward my bf and appreciate the effort he makes in trying not to offend me. (Of course, I just pulled him in here to ask him if it feels this way and he answers "I don't know" and I'm not sure if he's being sincere or if he thinks the "wrong answer" will make me mad.)"

The book/film '1984' is a good representation of this. There's a bit at the end where the main character has to agree that 2 + 2 = 5. It makes no sense to him and he knows it's incorrect, but he has to go along with it to appease the rulers. It's a good book/film anyway, so I'd recommend it! And yes, I do feel like a boiling kettle by the end of the day if I'm around people for too long. I've learned coping methods though. I also have different outlets in terms of hobbies that immediately calm down my brain (programming, sudoku, realist painting, building something, etc) as well as music. As a child I would just have 'melt downs' and end up either sitting in a dark cupboard or getting really angry and stressed, but as an adult you learn to identify where your limits are before you reach them.

I was diagnosed with autism at a relatively young age and had years of counselling where I had things explained to me and was able to learn how my brain worked. I was given the terminology to explain what was happening. Your boyfriend may not have had this, so he won't always have the right words to describe what he is thinking/feeling or what is going on. It's like trying to explain how your sight works to a blind person without knowing anything about anatomy and not fully understanding that they are blind. I'm guessing he genuinely doesn't know.

"Okay, wrapping up, I think I'm just gonna read him this thread and see if he can relate. I appreciate your feedback soooo much.[/QUOTE]"

Glad we can help. All the best!

 

[Bella Pines]

He really believes he sees things logically and that most people are irrational. If they thought like him the world would be a more orderly, logical, and better place, overall.

Couldn't agree with him more

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

There's a bit at the end where the main character has to agree that 2 + 2 = 5. It makes no sense to him and he knows it's incorrect, but he has to go along with it anyway to appease the rulers.

He actually has to see

Then fingers held up to be four.

Ie he has crossed the divide to become one of them.
He genuinely believes the lies and is no longer a danger to the state.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

It's like trying to explain how your sight works to a blind person without knowing anything about anatomy and not fully understanding that they are blind.

I got this.

It like hearing but you can also detect when the sounds move around silently..

 

[peachykeen]

I think NTs are conditioned to find disagreement, or slight dismissal as offensive in some way.
With my aspie, i always look at the context surrounding his often curt meta analyses as to why I am incorrect about something and he is correct. Every time it is the case that he believes he is doing a good deed by ‘teaching’ me something. And whilst I might be wired to look for smugness/self righteousness, or a reason to save face when told I am wrong, that isn’t what’s going on. He’s never doing it to be nasty or demeaning. You only have to throw an NT huff to see his genuine intention; he would be totally confused as to why I am suddenly sulking after having just learnt something new!

 

[Anthracite]

I love how you put that- your ego and facts are separate. Most of us NT's couldn't relate to that. It's so foreign.

I can understand why people get annoyed when someone criticises their opinion, but when it comes to actual facts (even if they're sensitive), I don't get that. If something is demonstrably true why be upset you were corrected? You've learnt something.

So I'm sitting here reading your message and decide to ask my bf if he thinks he has an ego and he responds, "Do you know anyone who doesn't have an ego?" Well my thought is, THAT'S NOT WHAT I ASKED! Geez.

I'd probably respond similarly tbh, along the lines of "Well yeah, everyone does".

I completely get your point about how people reacted to your very rational ideas about pedophiles; and I understand how NT's would react violently to your showing any semblance of understanding them from a scientific (for lack of a better word) point of view. Just for the record, I have a friend that works in the prison system with sexual offenders who says there is an emerging school of thought that pedophilia could be akin to a sexual orientation, but that's another convo.

I actually have sympathy for paedophiles who are refraining from acting on their impulses; it's not their fault they have a morally problematic orientation, and refraining from acting must be very hard. Not only that but they're immediately demonised as the scum of the earth without a single bit of help offered.

So, I sit here contemplating this and it seems to me that all of us can get worked up when addressing certain issues. I get passionate because of an emotional attachment to an idea and your heart rate would likely increase when an idea doesn't make sense.

I get really p****d when people refuse to accept or deliberately remain ignorant of facts, especially facts that could literally change the world. When people are stuck on their preferred "facts" (even if they suffer because of them!!) and outright deny reality I can't even deal with it. I can't fathom why you would just accept an idea because lots of other people do/you were raised with it when you have all the answers just a few clicks away nowadays.

Oh. By the way, just FYI, I'm sure you are right about people getting annoyed with your attempts to correct them. A question- if someone were able to "win you over" with facts, would being corrected annoy you? I'm guessing not because you would respect the "truth", right?

It depends how it's being said - if someone's saying it in a way that implies I'm thick for getting it wrong I'll be annoyed at that, or if someone's taking the p***. If someone just corrects me then I won't mind that. So yeah, it's the attitude rather than the idea, and that attitude problem has developed because people assume I'm thick due to my speech issues.

 

[GrownupGirl]

Yet another annoying aspie stereotype, that we're all like Mr. Spock.

 

[Rich Gray]

He disputes much of what I say. It feels like it’s CONSTANT and it wears me down. Like can’t you just say “uh huh” and move on in the convo?

Ask him what his motivations are for this behavior.

I thought aspies were ultra- logical, but half the time I can’t figure out where he’s coming from. His point of view makes no sense to me.

I enjoy debate, but not if it is not fun for the other party or parties. Unless they are jerks, or it is offensive, and/or I am board, then they can be told off.

Is this a dismissiveness or disputing me a common Aspie thing in communication or is this a personality of someone who has to dominate and always be right?

I enjoy learning the truth about facts. If I say 2+2=5, and I am corrected, and I learn the right way or answer, then I am happy.

Opinions are opinions, and everyone has them.

Is the subject of the debate fact or opinion? Opinions are often pointless to debate . . . if someone likes chocolate, then debating to them that they should not like the taste of chocolate is nigh futile.

I'm looking for feedback on communication with my bf.
He disputes much of what I say. It feels like it’s CONSTANT and it wears me down. Like can’t you just say “uh huh” and move on in the convo?

I thought aspies were ultra- logical, but half the time I can’t figure out where he’s coming from. His point of view makes no sense to me.

Is this a dismissiveness or disputing me a common Aspie thing in communication or is this a personality of someone who has to dominate and always be right?

The best answer to an issue depends on what the objective is. So there are often differing objectives, and thus differing best ways. This is why we have representative governments. Group A, B, C, D, E, F, and G could all have different objectives and different real or perceived best ways.

• Let him know what your expectations are. Write a procedure and/or flow-chart for when it is appropriate to debate.
• Ask him to declare his intent/motivation for the question.
• Ask him to declare how an answer would be beneficial.

If it meets the criteria, then he could ask you “What is your perceived objective and evidence to come to the conclusion that X would be the best solution to achieve that objective?”

Also note that sometimes the sub-optimal choice is the perfected choice . . . this is one reason why we eat dessert. If you enjoy mowing the lawn using method A, but it is less time efficient than method B, and there is no time constraint, then why not enjoy mowing your lawn?

 

[Rich Gray]

I am not sure where the 'Ultra Logical' reputation comes from. I have certainly heard it before. But in my experience people on the spectrum are frequently illogical. You do see black and white thinking at times and that might be misrepresented as logic. Some on the spectrum think they are ultra logical, but again I think that is just black and white thinking.

I am super logical, but I am human and make errors. I most often base my decisions on logic, and it would drive me nuts not to do so. This here is what could cause problems. If my buddy said that his lucky color was red, so he bought the red house over all the other houses he was looking into, sight unseen . . . I would then ask him if he was crazy nuts.

The logical “best” answer changes depending on the situation and person. Motivation, goal, training, education, experience, setting, the people around you . . . all change the logical answer(s).

Doctors see the logical best answer to death VERY differently then the rest of us. They tend to want to rather die on their terms than spend their last scrap of time suffering in a hospital while people try to keep them alive for a wee-bit longer.

Logical does not mean correct. Acting as if a correlation was a causation is often logical, and it is also often super crazy illogical.

If I tell you this bag of apples weighs 2-pounds, and this other bag of apples weighs 2-pounds, then it would be logical to assume that they together weighed 4-pounds. Even if I made a mistake and one bag of apples weighed 3-pounds. Assuming the data I gave you was correct would give you the incorrect answer, but it would be logical. People would totally argue over the weight total being 4 or 5 pounds

People also think differently. Some people go to the car dealership and let a salesman sell them a car, or pick one out that seems cool. Some people research everything and then pick a car. I would argue that the later would be more logical under the vast majority of occasions.

If I was super wealthy, and was board, and wanted a toy, then I could pick the worst car in the world, and be correct because my motivation is to drive about, kill some time, and have fun. The car breaking down would not be that much of an inconvenience to me, if it were any inconvenience at all. A lower income family would have a different reaction to this event.

People who navigate the world via logic, and people who navigate the world via emotion can drive each other crazy sometimes. My brain would go nuts seeing someone pick what stock to put their substantial inheritance in via pulling the one stock from a hat full of all stocks in the world. Someone who believes that luck or god or fate is guiding their hand may very well be cool with the idea.

 

[Rich Gray]

". . . we simply get tired of speaking a foreign language all day long . . ..

Assume that he is not a native language user, and needs to translate non-literal to literal. Most of the time I can do this, but if tired or stressed I can mistranslate something.

 

[VJCJ0628]

1st I would state that I only came to know I have Aspergers several months ago, However, I have been a debater since my teens ( I was a very quiet child till my teens)

But I did it for many reasons, 1 reason early on, Its how I learned a great many things If someone tells me facts on one side of an argument I tended to argue the opposite It kind of let me feel both ends to come to a better understanding

Another reason, As much as I had been told as a child by other children how stupid I was and that i am a retard, Or how my elementary teachers would tell my parents at parent-teacher meetings that I dance to a beat of a different drum or the like, Now here I am at 16 dropped out of school but yet can hold up a back and forth intelligent debate with A grade high school senior on anything from politics to philosophy and win, This made me feel I wasnt as hopeless as I previously thought I am not as stupid as I always thought, Mabye I can learn to fit in better,

Another thing is I never realized how much I did it, or what it seemed like to others, To me, it just seemed as natural as flirting is to an NT. Because I didn't know I had Aspergers or what that was about I often could not understand How I can debate with the best of them but had a hard time in life with getting into relationships and meeting new people, I would marvel at what most people couldn't get but how hard it was for me to get what was so simple for NT's but I would look at this and not come up with answers

I have done it because I want the truth and thought others wanted to know the truth also, But I found most people will act like they want the truth but when faced with stacks of evidence and fact they resort to petty insults or some grammar mistake ( am I terrible at grammar) and use something like that to claim they have proven a disproven point

I did it because I did not know how to do different, It wasn't until I meet my Wife, Who I was dating at the time seen how sad I would get after spending 2 hours going over fact with someone who claimed to be for truth but was not, and how sad I was that the person just totally ignored the facts as if they were not mentioned, Knoweing to me I was trying to help the person and spent hours looking up the info for this

My wife (girlfriend at the time) told me then and many times after most people don't think like you they thing with emotion, This was a revelation to me, I never thought that before or even considered that, It took time but I slowly learned to change

I still, however, an unable many times to Agree with something that I know is false I can keep my mouth shut now but I cant actually say I agree for the sake of being polite

 

[sisselcakes]

I am super logical, but I am human and make errors. I most often base my decisions on logic, and it would drive me nuts not to do so. This here is what could cause problems. If my buddy said that his lucky color was red, so he bought the red house over all the other houses he was looking into, sight unseen . . . I would then ask him if he was crazy nuts.

The logical “best” answer changes depending on the situation and person. Motivation, goal, training, education, experience, setting, the people around you . . . all change the logical answer(s).

Doctors see the logical best answer to death VERY differently then the rest of us. They tend to want to rather die on their terms than spend their last scrap of time suffering in a hospital while people try to keep them alive for a wee-bit longer.

Logical does not mean correct. Acting as if a correlation was a causation is often logical, and it is also often super crazy illogical.

If I tell you this bag of apples weighs 2-pounds, and this other bag of apples weighs 2-pounds, then it would be logical to assume that they together weighed 4-pounds. Even if I made a mistake and one bag of apples weighed 3-pounds. Assuming the data I gave you was correct would give you the incorrect answer, but it would be logical. People would totally argue over the weight total being 4 or 5 pounds

People also think differently. Some people go to the car dealership and let a salesman sell them a car, or pick one out that seems cool. Some people research everything and then pick a car. I would argue that the later would be more logical under the vast majority of occasions.

If I was super wealthy, and was board, and wanted a toy, then I could pick the worst car in the world, and be correct because my motivation is to drive about, kill some time, and have fun. The car breaking down would not be that much of an inconvenience to me, if it were any inconvenience at all. A lower income family would have a different reaction to this event.

People who navigate the world via logic, and people who navigate the world via emotion can drive each other crazy sometimes. My brain would go nuts seeing someone pick what stock to put their substantial inheritance in via pulling the one stock from a hat full of all stocks in the world. Someone who believes that luck or god or fate is guiding their hand may very well be cool with the idea.

Extremely good points you make here. Thanks for the perspective. I think one of the factors that contribute to my perception that he debates or contests so much of what i say is based on where we get our information. Since, as someone else on here said, NT's make many decisions based on emotion- not fact, I sometimes just treat the dynamic as if he's an NT and figure I just can't get into his head or understand what he's thinking.

 

[sisselcakes]

• Let him know what your expectations are. Write a procedure and/or flow-chart for when it is appropriate to debate.
• Ask him to declare his intent/motivation for the question.
• Ask him to declare how an answer would be beneficial.

Very interesting approach I would have never thought of.

 

[VJCJ0628]

• Let him know what your expectations are. Write a procedure and/or flow-chart for when it is appropriate to debate.
• Ask him to declare his intent/motivation for the question.
• Ask him to declare how an answer would be beneficial.

Very interesting approach I would have never thought of.

These are very good questions I had to be taught late in life how to ask myself these and similar questions about this and other subjects, to understand my motives or how important is it is not something I did naturally but helps me greatly now

 

[MrSpock]

I am mostly in agreement with previous posts. This is an interesting and enjoyable thread. I think that I may be able to add a mechanism that is a potential source of misunderstanding and a problem. It seems to me that the severity of offence is often greatly modified by the perceived motivation of whatever act has caused the offence.

It is possible that there are times when he is taking exception to the internal logic of your beliefs as opposed to the facts upon which your beliefs are based. It is easy to tell if he's disputing your base facts if you are both presenting them. I will tell someone that their beliefs are wrong if they have base facts incorrect, and will be willing to listen to an alternate set of base facts in many cases, and will at least be willing to address them if only to give reason for dismissing them.

I think that it's important to discuss religion and politics. I understand the rule, it is one that keeps an individual out of harm's way in the short term, and keeps the status quo in the long term. These things guide how our society acts as a whole (although there are other factors at play) and changing people's beliefs in these spheres is one of the most important things a person can do to change things for the better in my opinion.

However I am willing to accept that others have different points of view, different priorities, different belief systems. I am not willing to accept that others have different rules of logic. They may think that they do, however the simple fact is that they're illogical, are breaking the rules of logic, they are not making sense.

Perhaps you ought to phrase your statements differently (to please him) or get him to accept that it is your style of communication to be incorrect in a certain regard, however this enables you to accurately convey something else (to please you). An example of the latter may be that you say that an eight foot tall person shouted at you, when really he was only six foot six. You have inaccurately expressed the facts, however you may well have accurately expressed how intimidated you felt.

It may be important to him for you to begin your statements with something along the lines of "Given that it's a good thing to accomplish such and such, we ought to...". If you simply begin by saying "We ought to..." you have assumed common goals that may not exist. And then the one thing had better be a logical consequence of the other. I might disagree with you when I believe what you begin with and what you end with if you have drawn a false conclusion. A commonly used example that serves here is that I have a rock, and there are no tigers here and never are, therefore the rock keeps tigers away. I might agree that you have the rock and that there are no tigers, but I'll not agree that one follows from the other. It's possible that he pays more attention to the way that you phrase things than you do, and answers to exactly what you said rather than what you meant - as might be apparent to an NT by your non-verbal communication or some form of intuition derived from differently functioning minds.

If it is difficult for you to present sets of ideas in perfect order you might try offering ideas as simple statements of opinion instead of making apparent statements of fact or presenting sequences of reasoning where it might be applicable. I do not mean to suggest that you're stupid, there are brilliant people who have different gifts. I consider my innate ability to refer to a priori logic and apply it a gift, one that I'm obliged to use well. I will not agree to things that contradict it. I will not encourage others to do so either, that would be like allowing a blind person to walk into a ditch when I am next to them and I can see it. You see things I don't see, too. If my response sounds one-sided, it's because I'm most able to offer relevant information from only the one viewpoint. I think it's great that you're trying to see his side.

 

[sisselcakes]

Sadly, I had missed your message from April because I tend to come on here when I'm having issues with my AS bf, so I guess it's a good sign I was off for 2 months! Yay for us. Now I'm reading your response and I have to say this cracked me up. I've had a few of these.

This is what I refer to as a 'normie explosion' (sort of an equivalent to an 'autistic meltdown') .

Today was a very good example of why I am so exacting about wanting people around me to be aware of facts, and one that may be useful to hear for any non-aspies reading this thread (I'm sure this sort of thing comes up in other aspie-non aspie relationships).

My family has a lot of very gossipy non-aspies that don't care so much about the truth. They tend to discuss things among themselves for months/years without checking facts and can build up an entire backstory that they base other assumptions/opinions on that the object of the discussion is unaware of until things explode.

Today I received multiple long, very angry text messages from my sister accusing me of being treated unfairly by our parents and everyone else and listing multiple 'examples' to back up her claim and saying she needed time away from the family as a result, etc. This is what I refer to as a 'normie explosion' (sort of an equivalent to an 'autistic meltdown') .

After calming her down and trying to work out exactly what had happened, I realised that several members of my family had decided that my parents and brother had paid for all my driving lessons (I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum that I'm learning to drive finally) and multiple other things in the past. This was based on one person (we'll call person A) overhearing that my brother was 'giving me money for christmas for driving'. In reality, my brother and I always give one another gifts and this year he gave me cash instead to put towards lessons and in November instead of December since I had to book them earlier. He helped me out by doing so, as I didn't have the money at hand in November, but my sister and parents received a gift of the same value so it wasn't unfair. But person A took this to mean my brother was paying for all my lessons (which so far is about £1600) and didn't bother to check if this were true. They then told person B in the family. Then they told my sister and pointed out how unfair that was and asked if she was concerned.

Person A and other gossips in the family then apparently discussed other times in my life where I was in financial trouble (after uni I was close to bankruptcy due to student debts/loans) and assumed without checking that my parents had helped out because I moved back home. In reality, I was paying my parents above local rate rent each month (since they were trying to pay off their mortgage) as well as money towards other things. I moved back home because I broke up with my ex and had trust issues that meant I didn't want a share another flat with a total stranger. In financial terms, it actually cost me more to move back home. My parents did very well out of it. So the reality was the opposite. But again, they didn't check facts and this has clearly been an assumption held among certain people in the family for a while now.

Another assumption was that I received money from my parents towards college/university. I guess because I have such a strict routine (and plan ahead years in advance) that I manage to live on much less money than the average person and they simply can't comprehend how anyone could live their own expensive middle class lifestyle AND pay off tens of thousands in debts while not earning much. So again, they assumed that I must have had help from somewhere and didn't bother to check the facts.

My family attended a cousin's wedding last weekend that required staying in another part of the country for a couple of nights. Again, it was assumed that my parents paid for this. Again, they were wrong but no one asked me. If anything, I go out of my way to pay for not only my own expenses but also spend far more on other people when it comes to gifts or money for other things. I don't keep a tally of what is spent (I'm only considering it now due to the issue coming up), but I know that I am far more generous than those in my family who earn a LOT more and really have no right to complain. Due to the issue of money coming up in the past, I am paranoid about anyone ever buying me anything, as I know someone will throw it back in my face at a later date. I could spend £1000 on someone, but if certain family members see someone paying for drinks or a meal then the assumption will be made that I am getting spoiled and not paying my way. No one will check the facts.

I have been trading stocks for several years (mainly out of neccessity due to the above situation, now as a hobby). I need a lot of time alone anyway, but I also need to focus when trading and will therefore spend evenings staring at graphs rather than sitting downstairs with other people watching mindless crap on TV for hours. I'm very open about this and have (politely) explained multiple times over the years that I have no interest in watching TV (especially not the sort of thing other people choose to watch - they wouldn't enjoy what I prefer to watch either) and would rather be trading. If there is a family gathering or if people come over for dinner, then I will happily sit and chat with them while they are in the house. But if they come over to just sit in front of the TV or watch a film, then I will go elsewhere as they aren't talking and it's a waste of time. I always ask about their plans and hang around to say hello and chat for a bit first, to be friendly. But I won't sit there for 2-3 hours staring at the TV like they do. But instead it is assumed that I must dislike people or have a problem with them. I've never said anything to suggest that and no one has ever asked me to check. They assume and take that assumption as fact.

There are other assumptions that were made that I won't bother describing, as the above is enough. The point is the non-aspies in my family don't check facts and instead just make up stories in their head that are then shared with other non-aspies who also don't check facts. This leads to tons of gossiping and drama behind the scenes that ends up negatively affecting me (and other people who get dragged into it). I have heard the same sort of gossiping behind other people's backs, but when trying to correct their assumptions I am considered blunt, controlling, rude, etc (all the labels given to aspies on a regular basis). They decide a story and then hate to be corrected.

In the end, I simply spammed photos of all my bank statements to my sister showing payments made for driving and everything else. Fortunately, I keep statements for years so I have hard proof that all the gossip is utter rubbish. But I shouldn't have to even worry about this stuff. I've now wasted several hours of the day sorting this drama out. I don't get this from the aspies in my family. We all tend to expect this sort of crap from people and assume everything is a lie/exaggeration unless there is real evidence (which is normally the case).

Edit: Apologies for the rant, but as it was relevant to the discussion I hope it's a useful example of why aspies are so fussy about being accurate and why we find it exhausting to be around non-aspies at times.

Sadly, I had missed your message from April because I tend to come on here when I'm having issues with my AS bf, so I guess it's a good sign I was off for 2 months! Yay for us. Now I'm reading your response and I have to say this cracked me up. I've had a few of these.

This is what I refer to as a 'normie explosion' (sort of an equivalent to an 'autistic meltdown') .

My siblings and I have had some issues with this, but luckily they haven't gone as far as to cause serious strife. All families have varying levels of dysfunction. In the case of assumptions, this happens frequently with non-aspies because we are indirect and there are certain subjects that are sensitive or "impolite" to inquire about (i.e. money) so we fill the lack of knowledge with assumptions based on faulty logic.

Hope things are better with your family.