Complaint With Modern Comics For Possibly Causing Stigma

[thejuice]

Yeah i remember reading a few chapters of a book on it, the CIA tried to create a blank slate through which they could create a whole new persona. Stuff like Electro Convulsive Therapy, sensory deprivation, yes acid. Pretty medieval stuff. I didnt finish the book lol. I think they gave Vietnam soldiers acid, but pretty sure thats common knowledge at this point. Then there was agent orange to defoliate the jungle used for enemy concealment and the destruction of crops. Concerns about side effects of spraying tens of millions of gallons of herbicide over large areas were batted to the side in court. Gave millions cancer. Britain set a precedent for that, having already used weaponised toxic herbicides in Malaya in the 50s

 

[Jonn]

Back then, it was believed that you might be able to make people do anything at all via something akin to "brainwashing".

In the back of their minds they were thinking super-soldiers, assassins, etc, plus e.g. making people change sides involuntarily.

The Manchurian Candidate - Wikipedia

BTW I've seen the documentary, but I don't remember much because there wasn't a lot of meaningful content.
There's a funny scene of soldiers who've been given a dose of LSD trying to perform "foot drill" a parade ground.

Luckily it turned out to be difficult to create slaves in a democracy. Sadly, you can get fairly close at a large scale.

Firstly,
I would be surprised if there was only one documentary on MKULTRA.
Could you please supply a link?

Secondly, if you haven't been ritually abused, you are in no position to talk about the subject matter in depth.

Thirdly, I would be very careful when using Wikipedia.

Fourthly, invalidating other ppl's traumatic experiences is very, very, very naughty.

Spoiler

 

[Hypnalis]

I saw it in TV (possible broadcast TV There may have been other documentaries since then, but I haven't seen one.
IIRC the documentary wasn't bad, but it was already old news to me.

I wasn't talking about ritual abuse. MKUltra was a 100% legal US Government program, and only a "small secret" at best. IIRC they used randomly selected local US Servicemen.

Fourthly, invalidating other ppl's traumatic experiences is very, very, very naughty.

So is making accusations without solid evidence. Don't do that again.

The scene is funny because the soldiers were trying to follow orders, but couldn't.

At different times different people were failing to hold formation when the group was supposed to be walking walking in a straight line, turning in the wrong direction, and similar things. Perfect slapstick" humor.

But it wasn't intended to cause harm, and IIRC they used LSD, which was was already known to be non-toxic.

The whole thing was morally questionable, to say the least. But I live in a world where film, TV and video games are full of moral relatively (The Sith are now good, and the Jedi evil /lol). Which naturally makes "whataboutism" a valid argument rather than a logic fallacy, so I'm off the hook.

 

[Jonn]

I wasn't talking about ritual abuse. MKUltra was a 100% legal US Government program, and only a "small secret" at best. IIRC they used randomly selected local US Servicemen.

You have little understanding of what MK-Ultra was about:

Project MKUltra​

MKUltra is the best-known and most extensively documented example of ritual abuse perpetrated on behalf of a government, despite the intentional destruction of most of the documentation. [22]:64 Project MKUltra was a "mind control" project that began during the Cold War, was designed and perpetrated by United States intelligence agencies, including the CIA, and those of other countries.

 

[Jonn]

While the MKULTRA program ran for a relatively short amount of time, the CIA and
other government agencies were researching behavioral modification during the years following
World War II. The Intelligence agents, physicians, researchers, and other involved in the
MKULTRA experiments were in direct violation of ethical codes previously set in place prior to
the program, including the Hippocratic Oath, U.S. Constitution, Nuremberg Code, and the
United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Jonn

That set of attitudes and actions has been discussed quite widely since long before you were born. I first heard about MKUltra itself in the 70's, but there were a lot of similar things going on.

The focus of such discussions changed during the Vietnam war, and people started viewing stuff like MKUltra as earlier examples of the bad behavior that people learned about during those times.

"Direct violation of ethical codes" is probably true, but the interesting question is whether the people who did it (a) were obeying orders, and (b) were actually prosecuted.

In case you didn't notice, some of the "bad things" done in the Guantanamo Bay prison were approved by high-level Government lawyer(s) and even a couple of contract psychologists. I didn't remember even a token low-level staff member being prosecuted, but I didn't follow it.

In my observation, It's usually technically legal while they're doing it, but sometimes claimed not to be legal afterwards.

Later commenters looking to strengthen the emotional reaction of their readers/viewer often frame the story as though the legal situation is different.

But somehow it's always people like this that actually get prosecuted:
Lynndie England - Wikipedia,

Abu Gharib is an example where AFAIK none of the high-level people were actually held accountable (certainly Rumsfeld and Sánchez).

 

[Mono]

I don't really mind when the villains have these traits, as there are plenty of 'good' characters that have them. I also don't like it when writers have to walk on eggshells when writing stories. Last comics I read were from the 90s though, so I have no idea what it's like now. But I never felt like there wasn't some kind of balance. As for violence, yeah... Dark Knight Returns anyone? I actually prefer that some villains have a more realistic reason for the things they do, rather than being evil for the sake of being evil. I'm not saying you are wrong for having a problem with how you see it, of course Just throwing in some thoughts of mine.

 

[FayetheAspie]

I don't really mind when the villains have these traits, as there are plenty of 'good' characters that have them. I also don't like it when writers have to walk on eggshells when writing stories. Last comics I read were from the 90s though, so I have no idea what it's like now. But I never felt like there wasn't some kind of balance. As for violence, yeah... Dark Knight Returns anyone? I actually prefer that some villains have a more realistic reason for the things they do, rather than being evil for the sake of being evil. I'm not saying you are wrong for having a problem with how you see it, of course Just throwing in some thoughts of mine.

I think I've been feeling a bit frustrated about the topic lately because I had started watching the series "Gotham " for the first time on Tubi. At first Ed Nygma was one of the good guys in the GCPD and his extensive knowledge of science facts, love of telling riddles, and social awkwardness were all relatable. I think I had a bit of a fictional character crush on him, but then the Daughtry incident happened and Ed proceeded to become a worse and worse person. Also, he had seemed to obviously have Aspergers but then exhibited DID symptoms with psycotic features as well starting along the time of the Daughtry incident and I remembered when someone where I used to work told people to stay away from a guy that had been hired because he was autistic and he claimed that meant that the guy had "multiple personalities and stuff". I then could not help but wonder if he had watched this show and if that was the reason that he thought autistic people had multiple personalities and were dangerous.

 

[Mono]

I had a huge crush on the Kristen Kringle character, so I guess we were both robbed Jokes aside though, I get what you're saying. But I think people who think like that just don't know how to act around people who are autistic. It's always possible they watched the show or something similar, of course. But if they can't differentiate between fictional characters and the real world, what can you do? I'd do my best to show them different if that happened in my workspace.

 

[FayetheAspie]

I had a huge crush on the Kristen Kringle character, so I guess we were both robbed Jokes aside though, I get what you're saying. But I think people who think like that just don't know how to act around people who are autistic. It's always possible they watched the show or something similar, of course. But if they can't differentiate between fictional characters and the real world, what can you do? I'd do my best to show them different if that happened in my workspace.

Do I need to change myself away from liking science and riddles or at least from liking both simultaneously or should I stay myself and let people I meet observe over time that I stay nice, caring, ect. ?
I am sorry the story plot turned out like it did for Kristen Kringle. I found her fate highly disturbing myself. I guess we'll both have to just be glad that it was all fiction.

 

[FayetheAspie]

Studying a science program, hopefully the interest in science at least will be acceptable at whatever job I get.

 

[FilterFreq]

The shows will often start out with them seeming like a nice person who is just a little "off" in some way that is often fairly consistent with a real disorder and then has them turn into a total psychopath after being ignored, bullied ,or having a traumatic experience. I think this contributes to the fear response that our little personality or mannerism quirks seem to induce in many neurotypicals.

I'm not familiar with this in detail, but it sounds like you might be describing the stereotypical psychopath, because every superhero story needs an antagonistic counterweight to the hero. One character (the hero) usually embodies our greater virtues (sort of like a deity figure), and another one (the villain) harbors all of our negative ones.

The stereotypical villain is supposed to be a bit slimy, too. They appear nice on the outside, but it's a facade. Otherwise it would be much easier to expose them for who they truly are. This isn't typically in line with autistic traits, though.

 

[FilterFreq]

This might just be my opinion, but when the stereotypical autist reveals themselves in fantasy, it's usually the hero's right-hand buddy. Usually they share the same virtues as the hero, but with a quiet (or sigma?) strength rather than an assertive 'alpha' type. Maybe like Hal Otocon or something. Or if you like trash movies like me, Hackerman.

Autists are typically represented as 'good guys' (even though they can be any gender) , information-gatherers and truth-seekers with boundless knowledge or access to esoteric forms of it, but quirky and usually unlucky with relationships. I think it's pretty accurate, honestly, even if it's stereotypical.

 

[Mono]

Do I need to change myself away from liking science and riddles or at least from liking both simultaneously or should I stay myself and let people I meet observe over time that I stay nice, caring, ect. ?
I am sorry the story plot turned out like it did for Kristen Kringle. I found her fate highly disturbing myself. I guess we'll both have to just be glad that it was all fiction.

Nothing wrong with liking science and riddles, I definitely wouldn't change myself if I liked those I don't follow the rest of your sentence, though?
Thanks, it's fine though It was an interesting and entertaining take on the Batman universe, but I wasn't thát invested in it. But I do know what it's like to 'lose' a fictional character you really like. I've seen a lot of Batman content myself, so I wasn't surprised Edward would turn out this way. Both he and Penguin and their interactions were my favorite things in the series. Are you going to continue watching the series or did you already finish?

 

[FayetheAspie]

Nothing wrong with liking science and riddles, I definitely wouldn't change myself if I liked those I don't follow the rest of your sentence, though?
Thanks, it's fine though It was an interesting and entertaining take on the Batman universe, but I wasn't thát invested in it. But I do know what it's like to 'lose' a fictional character you really like. I've seen a lot of Batman content myself, so I wasn't surprised Edward would turn out this way. Both he and Penguin and their interactions were my favorite things in the series. Are you going to continue watching the series or did you already finish?

I eventually just stopped watching it though not immediately. It gets weirder and weirder as it goes. I don't plan to finish it. I was actually kinda stupid too to start liking a character that I knew was eventually going to become a villian on the show. I had seen some clips from later on in the series plus I recognize the name anyway. I just tried to cling to the idea of a good character version of him as long as possible and then got all upset when that part of the story was over. I have re-watched portions of the first season and then just kinda daydreamed alternative story progression though. I have a lifelong habit of daydreaming up different endings when I don't like the way a movie plot turns out.

 

[Mono]

I eventually just stopped watching it though not immediately. It gets weirder and weirder as it goes. I don't plan to finish it. I was actually kinda stupid too to start liking a character that was bound to become a villian on the show. I have re-watched portions of the first season and then just kinda daydreamed alternative story progression though. I have a lifelong habit of daydreaming up different endings when I don't like the way a movie plot turns out.

Good call then, as the character will not get any better for you - best to find a different one Personally I am not into fanfiction but should you be, I think there's plenty for Gotham out there.

 

[FayetheAspie]

I've read a few. Most of the Gotham ones prove to be just as bad as the original but I have found one that was done in a +reader style that I liked before though I can't seem to find it. I also found a MacGyver/A Team crossover that I liked before too but the person never finished it.