Do you care what others think of you?

[nathanks]

I care what people think of me, and I have a really hard time trying not to

 

[Catana]

I'll lay out the scene. As an NT, I'm extremely sensitive to being judged by others. If we don't follow social norms, we feel a very strong internal "cringe"

I can't help but notice that you do exactly the same thing that most people do, including people on the spectrum -- generalizing from yourself to everyone. From "I" to "we." People are individuals. Not everyone has the same responses to social norms. Some resist pressures to conform; some don't. And it doesn't matter whether you're NT or not. I see plenty of threads here about wanting to fit in, so that isn't exclusively an NT thing.

 

[Suzanne]

Unfortunately, too much so and I honestly wish I did not care quite so much.

I feel that caring a little is good for one, because it means that one does not go out of their way to be disagreeable, but when ones do not care at all, ( at least, ones I have met), they tend to be unkind and given to being very rude themselves.

 

[Pats]

Yes and no. I care what others think of me, but I don't care in the sense of fitting in as far as social norms. I don't follow social norms and don't want to be like everyone else just to fit in. But I care what others think of me as to who I am. I want to be seen and known for me and being myself is part of that. I've had some outright lies told about me and could never understand how someone could make up something like that. So I care that people would know me well enough to know me better than those things.

 

[Pats]

You know, I'm not sure caring what others think of me and fitting in is the same thing at all. As I said, I DO care what others think of me, but not in the sense of trying to be one of them. That actually strikes me as kind of weird. Why would anyone want to be anything but themselves, but try to be what everyone else is? I have one sister that's really bad about trying to make other people follow her in taste. She'd buy a nightgown for my mom and say she thought it looked like her and I'd say, it isn't my mom's taste at all, it looked like what my sister would wear. She'd try to tell me how to dress and I'm kind of like, "Why would I wear that?" Why do people think they HAVE to wear certain brands? Luckily for me commercialism has not convinced me that I have to look like everyone or even anyone else.

 

[the_tortoise]

REACTIONS to their behaviors; but does it matter to you what others THINK of you if it doesn't result in being treated differently?

There are some exceptions but for the vast majority of situations/people, no.

I often don't really care even if it does result in me being treated differently so long as the different-treatment is basically harmless and has no significant impact upon my life (like strangers talking down to me, or when people get sort of visibly confused and uncertain about how to interact with me for whatever reason).

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what other people think of me in the first place, I don't have a constant radar for it going that it seems like normal people have -- I need a very specific reason to start wondering what others think of me, and usually there isn't one.

 

[Judge]

No.

Perhaps largely a benefit of old age. Where at some point you simply no longer give a damn what anyone thinks of you.

 

[WildCat]

Not very much. There are exceptions obviously, but for the mass majority of people their opinions really don't hold a lot of weight.

 

[Ylva]

Yes and no.

A lot of NT-ism seems to be about status, and try as I might, that I cannot care about. That and many of the other social constructs that are only there because everyone agrees to pretend they're there. I get why it's useful for a group to have a leader, but not why the whole line of succession needs to be worked out. It seems redundant. Then again, perhaps it was useful in terms of distributing resources back when they were scarce/we were prehistoric apes/whatever.

we experience painful emotions from simply imagining we are being judged by others, even if we aren't treated differently as a result of breaking a norm.

I did, and to some extent still do. But the fact is, in my experience, people are cronically unreasonable and have horrible judgments, and when you realize that it becomes harder and harder to respect their opinion. By the time that whole bullsh*t period known as childhood is over, many will have realized that people's opinion of them will not affect the truth of them, and famously truth is something we care about.

NTs can however be quite upredictable.

social repercussions if they misread cues or inadvertently do something that isn't socially acceptable (as defined by NT's)

And when you do try to care, in that you try to comply with the unwritten rules that everyone is so proud of knowing (and would never, ever tell you they're just playing to), it just doesn't work, often, you realize years later, because people won't let it work, because having someone around who's easy to manipulate is just free dopamine, and in the end you're too exhausted to keep trying. It's a bit like that dog in the cage with the electric floor cables; he just stopped trying.

That sounds a bit too self-pitying, so let me balance it with a comedic example. Remember in Freaky Friday when Lindsay Lohan's character, played by Jamie Lee Curtis, was out of her depth trying to do a grown woman's job? She clutzed some stuff up, didn't know what she was doing, comitted a few faux pas, tried to turn her mother's wedding into a teen magazine fashion shoot… because she was a teenager she had no choice but to think like a teenager, even in a middle-aged woman's body.

I'm not saying you're like the worst of them. He married you. That's a seal of approval. But I imagine the experiences that inform his behavior have been of dealing with a wide variety of allistics.

 

[Peter Morrison]

Humans are social animals and it would make sense that everyone would be concerned with what others think of them. As children, we learn how to be social. It's a process and there are cultural rules that we learn. Keeping in mind that bullies have some kind of radar to identify kids who are easily picked on, social rejection becomes normal to a kid with ASD. We're not sure what we are doing wrong, but we see and feel the rejection and harassment nonetheless. I think that over time, you stop caring about other people's attitudes about you. It's like studying very hard for a test, but no matter how much you study, you're not going to get a grade higher than a "C", or maybe a "B-" if you have some kind of unusual, entertaining quality. Sources of rejection are unclear to us, so even if you know what's wrong, changing it is nearly impossible because it doesn't come naturally. I think this might be where we learn how to mask or change our demeanor to avoid abuse.

The idea of social exclusion is many-faceted. People on the spectrum understand the exclusion, rejection, mocking, and general abuse, but we ignore some of the other reasons why groups reject others. When choosing teams for recreational sports, nobody wants the fat kid. Nobody wants to play with someone who can't catch a ball or doesn't know the rules of the game. Nobody wants the kid who doesn't care if he/she wins or loses. Then, you have the group of fiends who always get chosen first, then capability, then the lesser of two leftover evils. The stronger, more powerful will always pick on those of lesser capability. Call it ego, call it control, call it tribalism, but in the end it is those individuals who don't "fit in" according to the majority selection standards that get left behind. The same is true for party invitations. Kids who appear to be dull or depressed don't get invited to house parties. These majority kids, who see themselves as the "cool" kids, don't want to be friendly with a "dweeb". They might lose their standing in the "cool" kids hierarchy.

I think we might be able to examine any of the expressions associated with making the best of what you have. "make lemonade from lemons","when God closes a door he opens a window". We explore alternatives to being accepted by the majority cool kids. As time passes, you stop trying to fit in on the levels expected by the cool kids. You simply know that you don't belong. This becomes your reality and you make the most of it. It can be a very hard time because ASD kids don't know how to deal with constant rejection and harassment. You have no choice but accept that these majority cool kids don't like you. There is nothing you can do about it, so you realize that clinging to their world is fruitless. You end up losing interest in them, and you don't care at all about their opinions of you. I think that this is where our difficulties in socializing and our sense of frustration and anxiety become cemented into our mentality. We already know we are odd and different. Now we have proof of it. The kids we try to emulate don't want us around. We believe we are inferior.

Even as adults, some people put a lot of effort into sustaining their reputation as one of the cool people. If you are on the spectrum, I believe you put less emphasis on what people think and you become less concerned with reputation. You've grown accustomed to being ignored, so why would you concern yourself with opinions? The social lives of people with ASD span a wide range of feelings about the role of other people in their lives. Some have lots of friends. Others have none. Those who have none can't grasp what might be wrong. We forget that trying to fit in with "everyone", the majority proved a failure. Those of us who have managed to gain friends know that you don't become friends with everyone you meet. It's a very unique set of circumstances that results in real friendship, especially as an adult. If you are still carrying around your adolescent angst, people will become tired of you. A social reputation is of no importance any more. You become an individual who is still expected to behave properly and have some redeeming quality to offer the world. I stopped caring about others' opinions of me a long time ago. It might be my age, but I have found my value and I am confident in my views of the world. In essence, I have to manage my own validation. I didn't get it from the cool kids, so I had to figure it out on my own. I laugh when I see yesterday's cool kids getting arrested for bank fraud, bribery, and theft. Do I really care what they think of me?

 

[Daydreamer]

I'm an NT and I'm wondering about something. Do you care about what others think of you?

Well, I'm also a NT in the sense that I don't have autism.

Interestingly, I've taken those tests before that you have in your signature, and scored significantly higher. Usually I get 30 for the AQ, and 110-125 for RAADS-R. Personally, I seem to have a higher amount of traits than what you might expect, but not to the point where it's an issue.

Anyway, I'll get back to the main topic. When I was younger, I was concerned with fitting in to a certain degree. However, I'll admit that I've always been in a world of my own. In the present, I don't think that I actively try to fit social norms, but I don't try to fight against them either.

There are times where I mess up. I'll say something awkward, freeze up, or misunderstand a sarcastic remark. However, whilst I might kick myself a little for doing so I don't feel ashamed about it. Most of the time I laugh at myself. Sometimes when writing characters in my fictional stories, I'll draw from my experiences and have them make the same mistakes as I did.

I tend to find that if I know someone closely, then I'm more likely to care about what they think. Especially if they look up to me as a mentor, or just act happier when I'm around.

However, due to my experiences I do have a somewhat distant streak to my personality. I am aware that friendships are often fleeting, and there may be times where a long lasting friendship can end abruptly. This is just a part of life. Due to this, I might move on fairly quickly. This isn't because I never cared, I did, but rather since I'm used to it. I'm a fairly independent person, although I still feel lonely now and then.

When I do something embarrassing, I like to own it. Depending on what it is, I might turn it into a joke or just shrug it off. If it bothers me, I'll either try to amend it if I can or remind myself that people will probably soon forget whatever is bothering me, and that life goes on. Whilst they might not, if that happens then I'll just admit it and point out that there's no point scorning me for a past event which cannot be changed. All I can do is learn from the mistake, improve or change my approach and move on. Try to deal with life whatever it throws at me as best I can.

 

[sisselcakes]

Nah, I have no reason to give a crap. I dont want to hang out with most people in the first place... I'm not interested in watching them get drunk and blather on about politics, which seems to be the primary functions of... almost everyone I've ever met. So I'm not exactly very interested in being accepted into their group. May as well ask me to jump into a pit full of rabid wolverines.

Hell, I dont even LOOK normal. I'm very aware of this. But... yeah, I dont care.

On the other hand, I do care what animals think of me, so.... there's that, at least.

I went to a gothic themed bar the other night with my daughter and her friends. Most people didn't look "normal". They were all doing their own thing and you could tell anyone and anything was acceptable. I found it very freeing and accepting. Would be nice if society were more accepting overall.

 

[sisselcakes]

Most people don't really even entirely exist to me, they're just kind of floating around there, making noise sometimes.

Good visual. I know it might be a trade-off, but it must be freeing to not feel attached to what others think of you.

 

[sisselcakes]

I'd like to be more aware of the importance of others opinions, but I got dx'ed too late in life.

It's good that you help your boyfriend understand these things matter, I never had anyone do that for me.

Yeah. Everyone's responses here make me realize that, for the purpose of utility, what people think of you is only important in terms of the repercussions is has on relationships. Those relationships then affect how you do in society - for example, functioning at work. For me, on the other hand, I'm very sensitive to others' judgment. It's kind of a curse, honestly.

My bf is fortunate to socialize well with a select group of male friends he has had forever because 1) he has something in common with them, 2) is extremely loyal and 3) makes the effort to keep in touch with them. It's funny. In some ways he's more social than I am, but I'm more adept at handling superficial social situations and being a diplomat. He doesn't do well meeting new people or functioning in a workplace. He's gotten fired from innumerable jobs. (Luckily, he arranged a gig where he's self-employed. Yay, him!)

The way this makes it hard for us as a couple is that when he has met my family and friends and I can tell he's coming across in a way that he doesn't mean (sounding rude, for example), I get very sensitive about the judgment I know they are making; but he's happily oblivious. It's stressful for me because I am keenly aware and I don't want them to misperceive who he is as a person.

 

[sisselcakes]

As has already been alluded to above, since social anxiety is a common aspect of autism, and is in large part caused by one's perception of other's opinions, clearly plenty of us care what others think of us. Of course many of us grow up being unable to please anyone, despite our best efforts, so we give up. If we're going to be treated badly, segregated or ostracised, what's the point of caring? It just causes emotional pain we don't need so we turn off the part of us that cares as self defence.

The other factor to consider is alexithymia, which is present in approximately half of autistics and about 10% of non-autistic people too. If we have difficulty understanding our own feelings, let alone others, we may take a long time just to work out what someone else thinks of us. That may come across as not caring, when in fact it's not knowing.

Not caring what other people think is not necessarily an autistic trait, but it is definitely something other people can push us to and it is also something which is commonly assumed because we don't react in an expected fashion.

This is one of those questions which is directly related to double empathy. It may not be so much what we think and feel that is under consideration, as the atypical responses we give being misinterpreted by a recipient inexpert at autistic communication.

It would make sense that social anxiety would develop in someone who is on the spectrum because of receiving negative feedback as a result of committing a social faux pas or miscommunicating one's intention. That must suck!

With regard to alexithymia, my bf seems to have that to an extent. If you ask him an open ended question, he has a really hard time answering it, especially if it has to do with how you "feel" about something. I've tried to not communicate that way with him.

It's such a foreign idea to me, I have a hard time imagining it. It's funny how they say people on the spectrum struggle with "theory of mind" because I think we NT's have the same when it comes to encounters with ASD. I am so aware of how I feel and I'm so adept at expressing myself, that it's virtually impossible for me to imagine what it would be like to not have that ability.

 

[Fino]

I am so aware of how I feel and I'm so adept at expressing myself, that it's virtually impossible for me to imagine what it would be like to not have that ability.

One way to imagine it, maybe, is to remember a time you couldn't think of the word you were looking for, such as the name of something, and you can imagine what it is but the name of it isn't coming to you.

Then, a little more abstract, imagine if any word which meant "sad" was deleted from your vocabulary, and then you felt sad. And you "know" how you feel, but what's the word for it so you can tell someone else? It's . . . ? I don't know. Bad feeling? And your head hurts so maybe it's just that, or maybe you're tired. Those are kinda similar, aren't they?

Then you go mad.

Also, I think Autistimatic is probably spot-on for the reasons one may not care what others think. It's so much work for me to figure out what someone is thinking/feeling that I don't bother, except for a few certain people who I think are worth the effort.

 

[sisselcakes]

Super wary as the people are dangerous.

They can judge you on a whim,then spread it through confirmatory gossip to create a reality about you, that you know nothing about.
They can destroy you,as they would swat a fly,without a thought, to bolster themselves temporarily.

Good analogy.

So, for you, it basically comes down to the fallout that someone's judgment can create. For me, I actually fear the judgment itself, even if there aren't negative repercussions. Like, why should I care what a cashier at the grocery store thinks of me if I'm never going to see her again? Yet, if I have a negative interaction with her, I will leave there bothered. I'm not worried it will have any concrete consequence, it's actually what she THOUGHT of me and I don't think I differ from most NT's, though I may be on the more sensitive side.

Here's a good example. My bf and I were going through TSA and one of the guards had to give him a pat down. Apparently, the guy got a little too intimate and my boyfriend blurted out "effin" something or another. Well, the guard got offended at my bf questioning his authority and got into a power struggle with him, calling over his supervisor. The supervisor started threatening to call the airport police. I got in the mix because I'm very sensitive to injustice and abuse of power and questioned what exactly the offense was? My bf saying a word? So, it caused me severe anxiety. Why? Not because I was worried that my bf or I would actually face some real legal consequence or that we would miss our flight. No, I was worried about the social consequence of how it LOOKED to others. Of course, we walked away and I nervously laughed it off, but thinking about it to this day makes me anxious. My bf grumbled about what an ahole the guy was. The anxiety stayed with me for awhile, while my bf easily let it go. I don't think he cares much about others' opinions of him, for the sake of the opinions themselves.

 

[Misery]

I went to a gothic themed bar the other night with my daughter and her friends. Most people didn't look "normal". They were all doing their own thing and you could tell anyone and anything was acceptable. I found it very freeing and accepting. Would be nice if society were more accepting overall.

Oh yeah, I love stuff like that. I go to anime/gaming conventions, where everyone just wears whatever loopy costume they want. You can really be yourself at a place like that. Or be someone else, it's up to you. And it doesnt matter how odd it is. I look kinda like a nun in a miniskirt when in my usual costume (and I'm male). And that's pretty "normal" compared to some of the wacky stuff you see walking around.

Better yet, people act without the whole "masking" thing. They dont have to act a certain way to please the "normal" ones around them. They can act as bloody bizarre as they want. Or they can just ignore the usual "expected" ways of acting. In vendor halls I've seen big super-masculine guys get super excited over finding a booth full of cute plushie dolls. Granted, most anime fans have at least a couple of those, but still. People can really be themselves at those events. It's so refreshing. Though I myself tend not to act any different... my usual Garfield-ish fountain of acerbic sarcasm *is* me being myself.

The worst part though is going from that wonderful place, back to the "normal" world after the end of the convention. I'm usually in a bloody awful mood for the entire following week.

 

[sisselcakes]

One way to imagine it, maybe, is to remember a time you couldn't think of the word you were looking for, such as the name of something, and you can imagine what it is but the name of it isn't coming to you.

Then, a little more abstract, imagine if any word which meant "sad" was deleted from your vocabulary, and then you felt sad. And you "know" how you feel, but what's the word for it so you can tell someone else? It's . . . ? I don't know. Bad feeling? And your head hurts so maybe it's just that, or maybe you're tired. Those are kinda similar, aren't they?

Then you go mad.

Also, I think Autistimatic is probably spot-on for the reasons one may not care what others think. It's so much work for me to figure out what someone is thinking/feeling that I don't bother, except for a few certain people who I think are worth the effort.

That's a great example. You know how I can relate? English is my second language but I lived in Chile for 2 years and became fluent in Spanish. I don't practice often, so I'm a little rusty.

I find I'll be trying to express myself in a moderately sophisticated manner. There's a word that will fit what I'm trying to say. I know the word exists, but it won't come to me. I pause to think a little longer. When I realize the word isn't going to come, I have to mentally shift gears and search for a more primitive and less accurate word. This process causes a delay in my communication and it also doesn't allow me exactly make the point I was trying to make.

I think that's a really good way for me to think of it.

When someone presents you with a question that you have a hard time answering (such as a feeling question), what about that makes you mad? Are you frustrated with yourself? Are you frustrated with the fact your brain doesn't seem to be cooperating? With the other person?

 

[Kevin1968]

I only really care if their opinion directly affects me (like if they could affect my employment etc).

Other than that I don't care what anyone else thinks of me.