Electric cars...

[MildredHubble]

I read recently that in the UK more than a third of EV chargers are out of service at any one time. The Tesla chargers won't work without owning a Tesla. So much for our saviour Elon Musk and his mission to save the planet.

The other issue here in the UK is that the grid can't cope with the extra burden of charging EVs. As usual we do everything arse first and rarely adequately in the end.

The government is introducing rules to try to reduce the number of people charging and rolling blackouts are a very real possibility soon.

With the right planning EVs are a great solution to the temporary problem of fossil fueled internal combustion engines. Batteries are the worst compromise for powering anything. The paradigm we have and infrastructure for internal combustion engines is ideal. The fuel, isn't. Once we replace dirty fuel with clean alternatives, EVs will fall out of favour.

EVs mean huge amounts of useless battery packs that aren't easily recyclable when the charge capacity becomes depleted. Getting a new battery is prohibitively expensive for most people. The used market will collapse and cars will last 5-6 years at best before they become useless. ICE cars can provide essentially endless use with regular maintenance.

When I was younger I was all for EVs, but now I highly doubt they are the long term solution they appeared to be.

If I had the money to buy an environmentally friendly car, I would opt for a hydrogen fuel cell powered car. Not a lithium ion powered one.

 

[maycontainthunder]

If I had the money to buy an environmentally friendly car, I would opt for a hydrogen fuel cell powered car. Not a lithium ion powered one.

I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future rather than electric cars.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I read recently that in the UK more than a third of EV chargers are out of service at any one time. The Tesla chargers won't work without owning a Tesla. So much for our saviour Elon Musk and his mission to save the planet.

The other issue here in the UK is that the grid can't cope with the extra burden of charging EVs. As usual we do everything arse first and rarely adequately in the end.

The government is introducing rules to try to reduce the number of people charging and rolling blackouts are a very real possibility soon.

With the right planning EVs are a great solution to the temporary problem of fossil fueled internal combustion engines. Batteries are the worst compromise for powering anything. The paradigm we have and infrastructure for internal combustion engines is ideal. The fuel, isn't. Once we replace dirty fuel with clean alternatives, EVs will fall out of favour.

EVs mean huge amounts of useless battery packs that aren't easily recyclable when the charge capacity becomes depleted. Getting a new battery is prohibitively expensive for most people. The used market will collapse and cars will last 5-6 years at best before they become useless. ICE cars can provide essentially endless use with regular maintenance.

When I was younger I was all for EVs, but now I highly doubt they are the long term solution they appeared to be.

If I had the money to buy an environmentally friendly car, I would opt for a hydrogen fuel cell powered car. Not a lithium ion powered one.

But not the Tesla chargers,...they always work,...like, literally. Unless there is a grid outage, you can pretty much guarantee a working charging station. It's for the reason you spoke of,...other unreliable networks,...that Tesla is converting their stations for other manufacturers with additional charging cables.

There is a saying within the EV community,..."It's not the car,...it's the charging network, stupid."

"People" keep saying that the "current grid" cannot cope with the addition of EVs. One, literally everyone around the world is bolstering up their grid in anticipation of this. Two, utility-level battery storage of all sorts are rapidly being installed, in addition to improvements in capacity. Three, many vehicles, themselves, are "rolling batteries" with the ability to back feed into the grid via bi-directional chargers.

Now, you may be correct with the idea that battery electric vehicles are a "transitional technology",...like horse and carriage was to internal combustion vehicles. Nobody thought "horseless carriages" were ever going to be a thing either, they were noisy, scared the horses, created all sorts of hazards, the infrastructure wasn't there, only rich people could afford them,...the list goes on and on. A hundred years worth of research and development and we cannot imagine a world without them.

I am not the worrying sort of person. Whether car is electric, hydrogen, nuclear fission powered,...it doesn't matter to me as long as it is safe, cleaner, with higher performance, at a price point where most can afford. It will get there, no worries. It might not be there just yet, but it will. Big companies want to make their money, and they can't make their money if the end product isn't attractive to the consumer, nor can they make money if the infrastructure doesn't support it. Things will come around, no worries.

 

[MildredHubble]

I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future rather than electric cars.

I really do think so too. Integrating the "fuel" into the car (as in a battery) is just doomed to fail. Unless we want the kind of society where only the rich can afford to drive and have endless tons of toxic materials causing problems. The west is rather good at exporting it's waste to developing countries, the lithium ion scandal will be a thing, just like the mountains of plastic dumped in those countries.

 

[maycontainthunder]

On a slightly related note. Are motorcycles going to go the same way? It won't be as fun not having a kickstart... try starting an old Brit big single. Get that wrong and your knee will hit the handlebars at warp 8.

 

[MildredHubble]

Actually, Tesla is has opened up the network to other manufacturers by modifying their Superchargers with additional charging cables.

"People" keep saying that the "current grid" cannot cope with the addition of EVs. One, literally everyone around the world is bolstering up their grid in anticipation of this. Two, utility-level battery storage of all sorts are rapidly being installed, in addition to improvements in capacity. Three, many vehicles, themselves, are "rolling batteries" with the ability to back feed into the grid via bi-directional chargers.

Now, you may be correct with the idea that battery electric vehicles are a "transitional technology",...like horse and carriage was to internal combustion vehicles. Nobody thought "horseless carriages" were ever going to be a thing either, they were noisy, scared the horses, created all sorts of hazards, the infrastructure wasn't there, only rich people could afford them,...the list goes on and on. A hundred years worth of research and development and we cannot imagine a world without them.

I am not the worrying sort of person. Whether car is electric, hydrogen, nuclear fission powered,...it doesn't matter to me as long as it is safe, cleaner, with higher performance, at a price point where most can afford. It will get there, no worries. It might not be there just yet, but it will. Big companies want to make their money, and they can't make their money if the end product isn't attractive to the consumer, nor can they make money if the infrastructure doesn't support it. Things will come around, no worries.

The problem is that here in the UK, for decades now governments have essentially insisted that the majority of people need a car to be able to function. A huge number of people have to drive miles out of their area to commute to work. Our public transport is a joke. Supermarkets etc are most often out of town.

In the town where I live, there are literally no busses after 6pm for about half the year. The only saving grace is that (rather unusually) there are a couple of decent supermarkets within walking distance.

For a lot of people I used to work with, they had to travel about 25 miles minimum to work. Getting a bus simply not an option.

Everything is based around car travel here, it is not based on public transport. Most people I know can't afford an EV, but before long, fossil fueled cars may be virtually unaffordable too.

It will be like "Everyone can eat at the Ritz, but not everyone can eat at the Ritz."

 

[Neonatal RRT]

The problem is that here in the UK, for decades now governments have essentially insisted that the majority of people need a car to be able to function. A huge number of people have to drive miles out of their area to commute to work. Our public transport is a joke. Supermarkets etc are most often out of town.

In the town where I live, there are literally no busses after 6pm for about half the year. The only saving grace is that (rather unusually) there are a couple of decent supermarkets within walking distance.

For a lot of people I used to work with, they had to travel about 25 miles minimum to work. Getting a bus simply not an option.

Everything is based around car travel here, it is not based on public transport. Most people I know can't afford an EV, but before long, fossil fueled cars may be virtually unaffordable too.

It will be like "Everyone can eat at the Ritz, but not everyone can eat at the Ritz."

This too, will change. All companies when they start out, will build products that are low production and very expensive. Later, higher production and lower priced. Tesla is a very young company. The legacy automakers are just starting their EV programs. Let's keep things in perspective. Within a few years someone will undoubtedly come out with a high volume, low priced vehicle for the masses in the lower income brackets. Right now, it's the middle classes in developed countries that are purchasing the $40,000-80,000 US,...and there is so much demand that pre-orders are several months behind. Demand and the ability to purchase is NOT a problem right now. At some point in the future, it will be, and lower priced vehicles will certainly be made. The market is in transition right now,...this is what we are experiencing.

I can distinctly remember video cassette recorders at appliance stores costing $400-700 US,...some 10 years later they were significantly better technology and costing less than $100. Same thing with all electronics, computers, cell phones,...much better technology and performance for a fraction of the cost.

 

[MildredHubble]

This too, will change. All companies when they start out, will build products that are low production and very expensive. Later, higher production and lower priced. Tesla is a very young company. The legacy automakers are just starting their EV programs. Let's keep things in perspective. Within a few years someone will undoubtedly come out with a high volume, low priced vehicle for the masses in the lower income brackets. Right now, it's the middle classes in developed countries that are purchasing the $40,000-80,000 US,...and there is so much demand that pre-orders are several months behind. Demand and the ability to purchase is NOT a problem right now. At some point in the future, it will be, and lower priced vehicles will certainly be made. The market is in transition right now,...this is what we are experiencing.

I assume you aren't in the UK? People who were encouraged by the government to buy the "green clean" diesel cars of the future are now penalised if they drive to certain places. The government pushed everyone to buy diesel cars as they said it was more environmentally friendly 10 years ago. This caused the motor manufacturer I worked for at the time to drop production of most of their petrol fueled vehicles.

This created the problem that most cars are diesel fueled these days. Then when people were stuck with the situation, the government raised road tax on said vehicles and a further tax in certain areas. Most people need to drive, and they drive what they can afford. And this usually means diesel which incurs other charges.

We can't go back to horses. We can't go back to the 1930s. We live mostly in densely populated areas, you can't keep horses. It's not like back in the 80s when small businesses such as butchers and green grocers were every 12 feet on the high street.

Successive governments basically made it next to impossible to function without having access to a car. This disproportionately effected poorer families. It effected my family when I was young as we didn't have a car. There was one supermarket left in our town that hadn't moved to an out of town retail park.

I was 9 years old when we had our first decent car and it changed everything. We could go to the out of town supermarkets.

Unless our towns suddenly roll back 40 or so years, the push towards EVs will create another underclass.

Furthermore EVs will create tons of toxic waste. It's nice to say that eventually solutions will manifest for the problems that EVs pose right now. But all too often, they don't. And they haven't in the past either.

The government know that an easy way to reach net zero carbon is to prevent the vast majority of people from driving. It took decades for motor vehicles to become democratised. The way EVs work, it won't happen again as the used vehicles simply won't be viable. They will end up being chucked just like most ewaste. EVs are about making disposable vehicles with no residual value.

It will be poorer people, who make up the majority of people in the UK (yeah whether you like it of not, unless you are in the top 5% of earners you aren't rich.) who will shoulder the burden of reaching "net zero".

EVs are nice toys and for the time being, fairly good for the environment. They just aren't anything approaching a solution in the long term.

They are a good way though, to price most mere mortals off the road.

 

[Forest Cat]

I assume you aren't in the UK? People who were encouraged by the government to buy the "green clean" diesel cars of the future are now penalised if they drive to certain places. The government pushed everyone to buy diesel cars as they said it was more environmentally friendly 10 years ago.

The exact same thing happened here. "Buy diesel cars" they said. "It'll be great" they said. And then they completely screwed us over!

 

[MildredHubble]

The exact same thing happened here. "Buy diesel cars" they said. "It'll be great" they said. And then they completely screwed us over!

I can remember being absolutely dumbfounded when I heard about the policy! I couldn't understand how the hell the most dirtiest fuel could possibly be considered to be environmentally friendly. Jeremy Clarkson described it as the Fuel of Satan. Even he bought into it eventually.

We had the "scrappage scheme" where millions of viable and classic vehicles were "scrapped" to stimulate the sales of "clean diesel" vehicles. This had the effect of taking millions of perfectly viable cars off the road whose carbon footprint was essentially mitigated by their continued use instead of buying new.

Ideological, political nonsense.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

The way EVs work, it won't happen again as the used vehicles simply won't be viable. They will end up being chucked just like most ewaste. EVs are about making disposable vehicles with no residual value.

I think you will be happily surprised that we are finding that even the older EVs are not having the degradation that we once thought they might. We are seeing 300,000-500,000 mile EVs now,...and still going strong. The newer chemistries and motors are likely to have conservatively, 1,000,000+ mile service lives,...and assuming you take care of them with appropriate maintenance to suspension and braking systems, body panels, etc,...they will be multi-generational vehicles. At least in the US, all the wrecking yards are required to send the battery packs back to the manufacturer to be used in residential, commercial, or utility-level battery storage,...or a designated battery material recycling center where the materials are broken down and refined back into usable elements for remanufacture. I have read these FUD articles before, and they are highly inaccurate. There is, and will be, a market for quality used EVs and other vehicles.

As for the other situation with petrol vs. diesel vs. electric transition in the UK, we are seeing similar things in areas of the US and Europe. No more sales of NEW ICE vehicles as of 2030 or 2035,...obviously, vehicles that are daily drivers and 10 or more years old,...begin to be fewer and fewer, so their impact becomes lessened.

Well, unless something better comes along soon,...not likely,...EVs will be with us for a while. As with anything,...EVs will be replaced with some newer, better technology,...but not now. As the old saying goes, we should only worry about things we have control over,...and I'm not sure if we can control this transition as much as we think we can. Billions and trillions of dollars of investments have sort of sealed our fate for at least the next decade or more.

 

[MildredHubble]

The way EVs work, it won't happen again as the used vehicles simply won't be viable. They will end up being chucked just like most ewaste. EVs are about making disposable vehicles with no residual value.

I think you will be happily surprised that we are finding that even the older EVs are not having the degradation that we once thought they might. We are seeing 300,000-500,000 mile EVs now,...and still going strong. The newer chemistries and motors are likely to have conservatively, 1,000,000+ mile service lives,...and assuming you take care of them with appropriate maintenance to suspension and braking systems, body panels, etc,...they will be multi-generational vehicles. At least in the US, all the wrecking yards are required to send the battery packs back to the manufacturer to be used in residential, commercial, or utility-level battery storage,...or a designated battery material recycling center where the materials are broken down and refined back into usable elements for remanufacture. I have read these FUD articles before, and they are highly inaccurate. There will be a market for quality used EVs and other vehicles.

As for the other situation with petrol vs. diesel vs. electric transition in the UK, we are seeing similar things in areas of the US and Europe. No more sales of NEW ICE vehicles as of 2030 or 2035,...obviously, vehicles that are daily drivers and 10 or more years old,...begin to be fewer and fewer, so their impact becomes lessened.

Well, unless something better comes along soon,...not likely,...EVs will be with us for a while. As with anything,...EVs will be replaced with some newer, better technology,...but not now. As the old saying goes, we should only worry about things we have control over,...and I'm not sure if we can control this transition as much as we think we can. Billions and trillions of dollars of investments have sort of sealed our fate for at least the next decade or more.

The EVs I was involved in building 8 years ago have a viable range of an average of 35 miles. They are essentially useless. The batteries can't be easily replaced. In fact when production began safety was a huge problem. The production was necessarily, much slower and therefore more costly. Everyone had to receive basic training to avoid certain death. The batteries are integrated into the floor. There are also questions about who owns the batteries as they were "leased".

On the other hand, my car is nearly 35 years old and I would be driving it right now if I was physically capable of fixing the faulty brake. It will happen eventually I'm sure. My car has essentially limitless range as long as there's petrol available. It takes mere moments to restore full range at the fuel pump.

EVs are great for now if you can afford them. But I have as much doubt that they are the future as I had for diesel cars.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

The EVs I was involved in building 8 years ago have a viable range of an average of 35 miles. They are essentially useless. The batteries can't be easily replaced. In fact when production began safety was a huge problem. The production was necessarily, much slower and therefore more costly. Everyone had to receive basic training to avoid certain death. The batteries are integrated into the floor. There are also questions about who owns the batteries as they were "leased".

On the other hand, my car is nearly 35 years old and I would be driving it right now if I was physically capable of fixing the faulty brake. It will happen eventually I'm sure. My car has essentially limitless range as long as there's petrol available. It takes mere moments to restore full range at the fuel pump.

EVs are great for now if you can afford them. But I have as much doubt that they are the future as I had for diesel cars.

You can get a 10yr old, first gen, Tesla Model S,...a very nice luxury car, with over 220-260 miles real world battery range for $20-30K US.

Tiny little battery packs found in hybrids and "useless" EVs (less than 200 miles range) typically have a limited cycle life. Most battery packs are rated by their "cycle life",...100% to 0%,...a very common thing in hybrids,...and why I don't recommend them. A 75+kWh battery pack almost never runs through a full cycle, and typically has well over 300 mile range. Most daily driver EVs with a decent sized battery pack might see a 15-30% drop in state of charge in an entire days commute,...plug it back in and it never sees a "cycle". I've got a 40 mile round trip back and forth to work,...I keep the upper battery limit at 90%,...I come back home, it is between 75-80% state of charge,...plug it into a 15A wall outlet,...and by 2am it's back at 90%.

Most people,...statistically speaking,...drive less than 50 miles per day,...and would never have to use a charging station. I can go for months,...several months without having to stop at a charging station.

I understand using the proper tool for the job. If someone has to do a serious, "beat the road", long haul in a car or truck,..petrol/diesel is the way to go right now. If you have to commute that is an hour or more at highway speeds, and an hour back,...probably an EV is not for you. But, statistically speaking, that is not something the overwhelming majority of people use their daily drivers for.

I understand why some people have a negative sense about EVs,...but also be aware that you can't use extreme situations to give legitimacy for your feelings. For most people who buy any vehicle,...EV or not,...it's for relatively short daily commutes,...that's 99% of their usage. 90+% of the time it also sits parked. So, again, there is far less need for these super fast charging speeds than what many people seem to think there is a need for. I've been driving EVs and living the life for 6 years, and I can count the times on 10 fingers that I've used a Supercharger.

 

[Forest Cat]

You can get a 10yr old, first gen, Tesla Model S,...a very nice luxury car, with over 220-260 miles real world battery range for $20-30K US.

I don't know how others feel about it, but if I'm spending $30K on a car, a 10 year old Tesla is not an option. I don't think it makes sense, I can pay maybe $3K for it. Maybe. But I think I prefer to not a buy 10 year old electric car. It sounds like a bad idea, I think it will be nothing but problems with it. Expensive problems.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I don't know how others feel about it, but if I'm spending $30K on a car, a 10 year old Tesla is not an option. I don't think it makes sense, I can pay maybe $3K for it. Maybe. But I think I prefer to not a buy 10 year old electric car. It sounds like a bad idea.

I don't know what the car market is where you live, but used vehicles are expensive here. Like a 10-15 yr old 200K mile, beat up piece of **** in need of desperate repairs will be well above $8000. $20-30K for a working, reliable daily driver is more the average here.

 

[Gerontius]

I don't know what the car market is where you live, but used vehicles are expensive here. Like a 10-15 yr old 200K mile, beat up piece of **** in need of desperate repairs will be well above $8000. $20-30K for a working, reliable daily driver is more the average here.

Considering the way society makes it almost impossible to have a job if you don't have a car--I really have a problem with this. It feels like a damn pyramid scheme (car culture in general, gas or electric.) This is one reason I still have an ancient 1990s car and am proud to say that, like @Mildred Hubble's 35-year-old car, it'll probably stay on the road until better cars are built.

@Forest Cat I wouldn't take a NEW Tesla either. I just do not like Teslas.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

@Forest Cat I wouldn't take a NEW Tesla either. I just do not like Teslas.

I am going to guess you haven't driven one and punched the accelerator. It never gets old. Your head, neck, and face tightening up against the G forces. Your passengers grabbing the door handles as their head snaps back like a Pez dispenser. Then the giggles and smiles and "Do it again! Do it again!"...and the control you have over so much power,...it almost defies the laws of physics.

Nope,...after being involved with racing at some level since I was a child,...knowing how difficult it is to put that much power to the ground and not loose traction,...especially on the street,....and then have this new technology vehicle that literally won't loose traction,...it's a whole different thing. I am spoiled. I'm not looking back.

 

[MildredHubble]

Although I hate the asinine design and it's quirks my dad's Passat was bought fully functional for £800. This is about the maximum my dad can afford to spend on a car due to his disabilities. I make up for the short fall in budget by keeping the oily bits going as much as I can (and not as much as I used to be able to.)

The more sanctions/costs that are placed on driving a conventional car, the more likely it will be that he can no longer afford to drive. He needs to be able to drive to be independent and have a decent quality of life.

We assessed the possibility of blowing the budget on a second hand Nissan leaf. It's top range was at about 70 miles. That would be if he completely depleted the battery. The next viable option was a Prius. I was on board with that, but he didn't feel confident as it was two systems in his view that could go wrong. The batteries are considerably easier to work on so I would have been happier with that.

He can't afford a 10 year old Tesla. Besides, a battery replacement on those things is about half the value of the car, if they will even agree to it at all.

If you get an EV in its prime, it's great that you can afford it and it's hopefully not contributing to the problems with pollution. But it's not viable for a lot of people.

My dad could blow all his savings on the best Tesla out there and it could turn out to be a very expensive Turkey.

EOL EVs are junk. If you have the skills apparently End of Life Internal Combustion cars can almost always be repaired and still not cost more than a fraction of repairing an EV.

This is why ICE will likely come back into favour when we have clean renewable fuels. They will have all of the upside and none of the downside.

 

[Gerontius]

I am going to guess you haven't driven one and punched the accelerator. It never gets old. Your head, neck, and face tightening up against the G forces. Your passengers grabbing the door handles as their head snaps back like a Pez dispenser. Then the giggles and smiles and "Do it again! Do it again!"...and the control you have over so much power,...it almost defies the laws of physics.

Nope,...after being involved with racing at some level since I was a child,...knowing how difficult it is to put that much power to the ground and not loose traction,...especially on the street,....and then have this new technology vehicle that literally won't loose traction,...it's a whole different thing. I am spoiled. I'm not looking back.

Sorry, no. Driving like that seems like it's just a bad idea. They don't make a small Tesla, or a cheap one, or one where I can actually change the damn tire myself. This is the politest way I can possibly put this, I'm not interested in Elon's plastic yuppie buggies, or living anywhere I've got to drive like that just to get around.

I've experienced the EV acceleration before (early model Chevy Spark) and the most fun I've had was:
--looking out the window of a railcar at the 80-ton GE prototype diesel locomotive, 1940 relic, while a 2-8-2 light Mikado went by on the other line,
--being on a "safety" bicycle designed at the turn of the century, taking off down a long hill and topping out at about 25mph with no brake,
--getting a lift once in a stock 1936 Ford De Luxe, flathead V8, wool upholstery, no shock absorbers--only electronics on board was a vacuum-tube AM radio,
--driving my own little tiny car, 45mph on a rainy night in the middle of absolutely nowhere,
--fun fact, if I want instant acceleration for its own sake, a horse can do that if you ask nicely, and they are the original gasoline-free vehicle & a symbol of freedom in most cultures.


I'm not in tech bro country. Driving like that sounds like motion sickness. I like bicycles, small lightweight cars, passenger rail service, and two lane roads where pavement's optional at best.

 

[Gerontius]

This is why ICE will likely come back into favour when we have clean renewable fuels. They will have all of the upside and none of the downside.

I like thinking what a futuristic version of the VW Super Beetle, the Toyota Hilux, Lada Niva, or the Citroen 2CV would look like. If there's ever such a thing as clean fuel (which I doubt, but I didn't think they would invent the smartphone either) it might be interesting.
I'm hoping to end up doing what I said a few pages ago & starting the build on my own electric car, because they don't make what I'm looking for yet.
It's really getting to where I own a car more as an appliance than anything else, and, like with a household appliance, I don't think I'd hesitate to scrap it if I could find a different, longer-lasting, more economical way to do the same job.