Empathy

[Ken]

It seems to me that the human population at large is void of empathy. I even feel that most people don’t even understand the definition, because they can’t imagine what the feeling of empathy would be. While they can recite the definition, I don’t believe they can actually imagine it. Actually, I cannot remember ever meeting or knowing anyone that has a sense of empathy.

It seems to be a common agreement that empathy is even more void among autistic people. However, I feel that I have been endowed with more than my share. I suffer catastrophic PTSDs resulting from empathy of my friends.

I am not seeking advice on “curing” or “healing” or “treating” my PTSDs or my sense of empathy. That is not what this post is about. I don’t even believe it’s possible. I am just wondering if anyone else “suffers” from the totality of empathy. Also, this post is mostly a rant.

I believe that most of the suffering in the world is the result of a lack of empathy. I believe that wars, walls, murders, prejudices, bigotry, segregation, etc. could not occur if empathy was common. I believe there would be no bullies. Autistic, or any kind of people that are not like the majority would not be singled out and considered defective, or need “fixed”, or made to “conform”. I believe that people that are different should be celebrated, but they are most often scorned. It is very hurtful to me when it is considered that my empathy (or my autism) is considered “wrong”; inflicting anger in others who want to punish and hurt me for it.

I have to agree with what Terry Collins said to Kate Wheeler in the movie, “Bandits”, “I think it's better to feel too much than to feel too little.” I never want to forget my friends or loose my empathy for them. But, I have tragic PTSDs about them and I desperately do not want to add to those experiences again.

 

[Levitator]

Empathy comes from relating to people and finding common ground with them. When people slam the door in your face every single day, I hope they aren't disappointed that some people don't learn to relate to others who refuse to communicate with them.

I've developed extremely powerful empathy for the disabled, because even though I don't feel disabled, I do know what it's like to struggle against some characteristic of yours which makes something impossible for you, while everyone else can do it. It feels just like a disability, except it's them that reject you. They're seldom even aware that they're doing it, much less will they ever explain to you what offended them.

 

[Misty Avich]

Some people (particularly those on the spectrum) will define empathy as ''a bad thing'' and that empathy is a needed tool by bullies and other abusive people. But then if an autistic decides to bully someone for the same reason an NT might bully, they're said to ''lack empathy'' because they're bullying.

If empathy was a much needed tool to bully or manipulate, then it should be changed to ''socially aware'', because really it's like saying that as long as you're aware of what you're doing then you have empathy.

So if I was to say to someone ''you're worthless and ugly!'' for the intention of hurting their feelings, I would have empathy, because I knew that what I was saying would upset the person? Personally I don't identify empathy as that. I identify empathy as understanding and kindness. I see a lot of empathy going on here and judging by people's posts they often demonstrate empathy to the rest of the world too. But also judging by people's posts they have been mistreated by NT people who demonstrated a lack of empathy.

NTs can also lack empathy for non-autism related things too. How many times have you expressed a common phobia to an NT (such as heights or spiders) only for them to scoff at you and not understand why you feel that way, just because they don't happen to have the same phobia as you? I've encountered this many times. Not saying all people are like this, but it does demonstrate that it is normal for a lot of humans to not be able to imagine themselves in other people's shoes and can only see from their own perspective. I notice this a lot in people, which is why I get angry whenever I see ''autism'' and ''empathy'' in the same sentence. I think empathy is subjective and a very spiky personality trait. Some generally empathetic people might not feel empathy for some things. So to me ''empathy'' is a triggering word if used against an autistic. I actually hate that word. It irritates.

EDIT: I'm not referring this to the OP. Just as a general response.

 

[Levitator]

Some people (particularly those on the spectrum) will define empathy as ''a bad thing'' and that empathy is a needed tool by bullies and other abusive people. But then if an autistic decides to bully someone for the same reason an NT might bully, they're said to ''lack empathy'' because they're bullying.

If empathy was a much needed tool to bully or manipulate, then it should be changed to ''socially aware'', because really it's like saying that as long as you're aware of what you're doing then you have empathy.

So if I was to say to someone ''you're worthless and ugly!'' for the intention of hurting their feelings, I would have empathy, because I knew that what I was saying would upset the person? Personally I don't identify empathy as that. I identify empathy as understanding and kindness. I see a lot of empathy going on here and judging by people's posts they often demonstrate empathy to the rest of the world too. But also judging by people's posts they have been mistreated by NT people who demonstrated a lack of empathy.

NTs can also lack empathy for non-autism related things too. How many times have you expressed a common phobia to an NT (such as heights or spiders) only for them to scoff at you and not understanding why you feel that way, just because they don't happen to have the same phobia as you? I've encountered this many times. Not saying all people are like this, but it does demonstrate that it is normal for a lot of humans to not be able to imagine themselves in other people's shoes and can only see from their own perspective. I notice this a lot in people, which is why I get angry whenever I see ''autism'' and ''empathy'' in the same sentence. I think empathy is subjective and a very spiky personality trait. Some generally empathetic people might not feel empathy for some things. So to me ''empathy'' is a triggering word if used against an autistic. I actually hate that word. It irritates.

Oh, wow. You said "spikey", and I was thinking about spokes on a wheel, or teeth on a cog. That's exactly what people are like. Some people have empathy in one place, some people have empathy somewhere else, then you stick them together and their high points fall into each others' gaps, and they both agree the other is a jerk because they don't intersect. That's true about many things, and it's what it is for people to not see eye-to-eye, or tooth-to-tooth, or spoke-to-spoke, or whatever.

The other major point you made is that people are so cruel to each other they end up with totally confused definitions. It's tragic that there should be some people who think empathy is only a tool useful for gauging how much damage an act of malice would inflict. On the other hand, you can have people who have been called "weird" so much just for being different or unique, they decide it's a compliment, the way that Weird Al Yankovic wound up taking possession of the term.

 

[MildredHubble]

If people find themselves in very comfortable circumstances, with all their needs met, everything they want they get, then it's easy for people to lose empathy for others. It seems that empathy comes from experiencing the poor behaviour of others to a large degree, or through hardship.

If I see someone hurt physically in real life or in a movie, I get a little flash of the sensation of being hit. If I see people being bullied or abused I feel a very deep empathy that dredges up all the similar experiences I've had.

The temptation for people who have spent all or much of their lives having never been neglected or abused in some way is for them to develop the conceit that they "deserve" their comfort and any of us that have been harmed or damaged by our experiences are weak or lazy and don't deserve comfort.

People like this can discard empathy as it's never been a useful or necessary emotion or state of mind for them. Some regard it as a weakness that "successful" people don't exhibit. I've seen so called gurus on YouTube say as much.

The irony though is that they often expect empathy from the people who help make their lives comfortable while showing nothing but contempt in return. Think about how people treat staff on minimum wage in Walmart or Tesco. They view people as utilities to use. Having worked in similar jobs I've noticed that it's always the well off, privileged people that see any mild inconvenience as an emergency that someone as lowly as me is expected to resolve immediately while being shouted and screamed at.

I also believe that a psychological phenomenon occurs in some people where they misidentify the feelings of contempt and disgust they feel for some people as "Empathy".

When you've experienced bad things it becomes very easy to understand how that must feel for someone else and you show sympathy and empathy to comfort others to minimise the impact of the negatives they go through.

It would be a lot harder for people to enjoy their new iPhone or Nike's, apple watch, or designer jeans if they had to watch a 10 minute video every day of all the suffering that was involved in making those products. Most would eventually say something like "I know, but that's not my problem..." Like they think that some people are born to experience problems and they are born superior and therefore don't suffer.

 

[Levitator]

If people find themselves in very comfortable circumstances, with all their needs met, everything they want they get, then it's easy for people to lose empathy for others. It seems that empathy comes from experiencing the poor behaviour of others to a large degree, or through hardship.

If I see someone hurt physically in real life or in a movie, I get a little flash of the sensation of being hit. If I see people being bullied or abused I feel a very deep empathy that dredges up all the similar experiences I've had.

The temptation for people who have spent all or much of their lives having never been neglected or abused in some way is for them to develop the conceit that they "deserve" their comfort and any of us that have been harmed or damaged by our experiences are weak or lazy and don't deserve comfort.

People like this can discard empathy as it's never been a useful or necessary emotion or state of mind for them. Some regard it as a weakness that "successful" people don't exhibit. I've seen so called gurus on YouTube say as much.

The irony though is that they often expect empathy from the people who help make their lives comfortable while showing nothing but contempt in return. Think about how people treat staff on minimum wage in Walmart or Tesco. They view people as utilities to use. Having worked in similar jobs I've noticed that it's always the well off, privileged people that see any mild inconvenience as an emergency that someone as lowly as me is expected to resolve immediately while being shouted and screamed at.

I also believe that a psychological phenomenon occurs in some people where they misidentify the feelings of contempt and disgust they feel for some people as "Empathy".

When you've experienced bad things it becomes very easy to understand how that must feel for someone else and you show sympathy and empathy to comfort others to minimise the impact of the negatives they go through.

It would be a lot harder for people to enjoy their new iPhone or Nike's, apple watch, or designer jeans if they had to watch a 10 minute video every day of all the suffering that was involved in making those products. Most would eventually say something like "I know, but that's not my problem..." Like they think that some people are born to experience problems and they are born superior and therefore don't suffer.

Lots of wisdom and insight here, leaving me with little to comment, and that's saying something.

 

[LadyS]

It seems to me that the human population at large is void of empathy. I even feel that most people don’t even understand the definition, because they can’t imagine what the feeling of empathy would be. While they can recite the definition, I don’t believe they can actually imagine it. Actually, I cannot remember ever meeting or knowing anyone that has a sense of empathy.

It seems to be a common agreement that empathy is even more void among autistic people. However, I feel that I have been endowed with more than my share. I suffer catastrophic PTSDs resulting from empathy of my friends.

I am not seeking advice on “curing” or “healing” or “treating” my PTSDs or my sense of empathy. That is not what this post is about. I don’t even believe it’s possible. I am just wondering if anyone else “suffers” from the totality of empathy. Also, this post is mostly a rant.

I believe that most of the suffering in the world is the result of a lack of empathy. I believe that wars, walls, murders, prejudices, bigotry, segregation, etc. could not occur if empathy was common. I believe there would be no bullies. Autistic, or any kind of people that are not like the majority would not be singled out and considered defective, or need “fixed”, or made to “conform”. I believe that people that are different should be celebrated, but they are most often scorned. It is very hurtful to me when it is considered that my empathy (or my autism) is considered “wrong”; inflicting anger in others who want to punish and hurt me for it.

I have to agree with what Terry Collins said to Kate Wheeler in the movie, “Bandits”, “I think it's better to feel too much than to feel too little.” I never want to forget my friends or loose my empathy for them. But, I have tragic PTSDs about them and I desperately do not want to add to those experiences again.

I can relate (as a probably empath). It's hard. And lonely.
I can't really say I suffer from PTSD from it, but it does take a daily toll. I agree I wish more were empathetic -- I do sometimes think that it's not that autists don't feel empathy but that we can't communicate it in a way that makes sense in the NT world. And like others have said, we tend to have more empathy in areas that we personally relate to. (Edit) Forgot to add as @Rodafina also pointed out, I have also seen many members on this forum using empathy which reinforces my thoughts on maybe autists are not communicating it in a way that NTs understand.

It's draining. To constantly feel what's under the surface. I think that's why I've withdrawn more within myself. But I agree with and glad you mentioned about rather feeling too much than too little. Looking at the big picture.

 

[Levitator]

I can relate (as a probably empath). It's hard. And lonely.
I can't really say I suffer from PTSD from it, but it does take a daily toll. I agree I wish more were empathetic -- I do sometimes think that it's not that autists don't feel empathy but that we can't communicate it in a way that makes sense in the NT world. And like others have said, we tend to have more empathy in areas that we personally relate to. But can

It's draining. To constantly feel what's under the surface. I think that's why I've withdrawn more within myself. But I agree with and glad you mentioned about rather feeling too much than too little. Looking at the big picture.

There's also the penny-wise-and-pound-foolish problem. They'll say we lack empathy because they don't understand a facial expression or a phrase, but do I turn people away from jobs or businesses ever? No, I can't, because nobody ever comes to me and I'm broke because society rejects me. A lot. I can't even attain the necessary social stature to be as cruel and exclusive as they are, while they are fixated on things like eye contact and a firm handshake. What's the firmness represent? Confidence? In what? Lousy character?

 

[Rodafina]

Actually, I cannot remember ever meeting or knowing anyone that has a sense of empathy...However, I feel that I have been endowed with more than my share.

So, @Ken, are you saying that in your view, you are the only person you know who is empathetic? In your life, empathy is a characteristic unique to you?

I wonder if this is an exaggeration brought on by depression, trauma, and a generally pessimistic view of your fellow humans. I see empathetic humans share their thoughts on this forum every single day.

I hear you that having "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another" (the definition of empathy) can be a very, excruciatingly painful burden to bear. Empathy is something that many many humans exhibit (and of course, very many do not). It is not fair to take away the existence of this trait in those who have it simply because the world is also full of uncaring, hate, and apathy.

If we do not look for the good in others, then no, we certainly will not see it. When we disconnect ourselves from others altogether, our empathy will eventually falter. Even those of us with far "too much" empathy are at risk of that. We cannot paint all humans as horrible, empty, and lacking in empathy because we are humans, too, and if you look around at just our group here, there is abundant empathy to be found. Let us honor that.

 

[Levitator]

And now that you've got me going again, let me point out what a grave and disproportionate sin a lack of confidence is. The crimes and vices you are welcome to celebrate so long as you do it in a confident manner! See the likes of Kid Rock celebrating drugs and misogyny, and so on. Enough said.

 

[Levitator]

So, @Ken, are you saying that in your view, you are the only person you know who is empathetic? In your life, empathy is a characteristic unique to you?

I wonder if this is an exaggeration brought on by depression, trauma, and a generally pessimistic view of your fellow humans. I see empathetic humans share their thoughts on this forum every single day.

I hear you that having "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another" (the definition of empathy) can be a very, excruciatingly painful burden to bear. Empathy is something that many many humans exhibit (and of course, very many do not). It is not fair to take away the existence of this trait in those who have it simply because the world is also full of uncaring, hate, and apathy.

If we do not look for the good in others, then no, we certainly will not see it. When we disconnect ourselves from others altogether, our empathy will eventually falter. Even those of us with far "too much" empathy are at risk of that. We cannot paint all humans as horrible, empty, and lacking in empathy because we are humans, too, and if you look around at just our group here, there is abundant empathy to be found. Let us honor that.

I have to agree that empathy or any kind of decency is incredibly hard to find. It's out there, but go find a guy sleeping on the sidewalk, and tell him that if he would just find the good in people, he wouldn't have to sleep on the sidewalk. That's where I've been at, and I don't know where you get an optimistic view of "fellow humans" from there. There really is none that is justified. There are optimistic views to be found of specific people, and they are like diamonds.

 

[Rodafina]

I have to agree that empathy or any kind of decency is incredibly hard to find.

You and I have exactly opposite views of the general human population as far as I can ascertain from what you share here on the forum. Our different experiences in life have left us with decidedly different views on this topic.

 

[Levitator]

You and I have exactly opposite views of the general human population as far as I can ascertain from what you share here on the forum. Our different experiences in life have left us with decidedly different views on this topic.

And that's why I wind up on the street. People wreck my life, they insult me, they throw me out of stores and jobs, they beat me up sometimes, as recently as weeks ago. And when I go tell the truth, they react to me like I'm polluting their air, and they take offense.

I was recently talking to someone I am working with, and she told me to be more positive. The analogy I gave is; imagine a human trash can, and everyone who goes by drops their trash in him. Then, later one of them is angry, so they give him a swift kick, and they lament that only trash spills out. I think the only thing I would like to hear is that you understand why we would have different views, because maybe my experience or personality is different, and mine brings out worse qualities from people. The entire point of this place is that our personalities are not only not normal, they're varied in ways nobody understand very well. We see the outcome, though, and it sucks.

 

[Misery]

Well, thing is, I tend to believe a lot of people... most of them... do have real empathy... until they dont. Many of them will THINK they have complete empathy, but... no, there's always that spiky part, that one section that either doesnt care, doesnt understand (and thus, may outright not notice) or just outright hates. It's not always just a lack of something, either. Sometimes it's fear or paranoia. It can be hard for someone to have true empathy for someone or something that scares them.

Though, I also rather think that it can be hard to spot empathy where it does exist in others. People are wired to focus on and remember the negative far more than the positive. So, all that time you spend with such and such nice person, they're nice the whole time, but then they have that one bad day and maybe they say something hurtful once or whatever. And for many, THAT is what will be remembered... not the constant nice stuff. It's easy to not realize when we're doing this, either. I have to constantly remind myself of this one, so I dont get a really bad impression of someone simply because they're really moody from a headache or something.

And lastly, there's perception of empathy. Real empathy does not always equal a hug and some fluffy words. Sometimes, that makes it worse. There are times when you gotta get rough, when you gotta say the hard things that someone needs but doesn't want to hear or take actions that are difficult for them but are necessary, and THAT is hard to do. People will easily spot the fluffy words as empathy, but the other brand can be seen as something it isn't.



It's easy to say that everyone else is terrible, only we have empathy, or whatever, but... no. Even this forum is absolutely not an exception to any of this. I've seen plenty of hurtful stuff on here (even if a good bit of it is accidental). Even I'm no exception to this, I know I use the wrong dang words sometimes and such like that.

But the important point, in my view, is to realize exactly that, and spot where and how we could do better, and work on it.

That's just my thoughts on it though.

As an empath myself, frankly I find the experience of having empathy frustrating. Every now and then, I wish I could turn it off. Might be one of the reasons why I tend to be so reclusive. Hm. Ya know, I hadn't thought of that before.

 

[Rodafina]

I think the only thing I would like to hear is that you understand why we would have different views

I think maybe you are referring to me here, although I'm not sure. Of course we would have different views. You are YOU and I am ME. We have different brains and have had different experiences. Different is neutral - neither one of our opinions should hold more or less value or veracity than the other. Just different experiences that determine different views.

The analogy I gave is; imagine a human trash can, and everyone who goes by drops their trash in him.

I would handle being a human trash can differently.

To save myself from the hurt and shame of having people throw their trash into me, I would take the time to examine every piece of trash until I understood it down to its cellular make up. (In my life, everything can be whittled into interesting information and I live to learn and quench my curiosity about things.) Once I understood the trash, I would take it and make things out of it that I would display in the alleyway where I sat in the rain, in the snow, and on the cold cold nights all alone. On those nights, I would contemplate the stars, make wishes on them, and be grateful for their glittering light that brings me such wonder and joy.

I would notice that every once in awhile a human comes to empty the trash, easing my burden and making new space for interesting things for me to examine. I would notice children who wondered if I was the home for a green grouch called Oscar, and I would see that across the street, in another dirty alleyway, there was a dumpster. A dumpster is a lot like a trashcan, but also different. And for that dumpster, I could foster understanding, interest, and empathy, even though we were different.

 

[MildredHubble]

I was recently talking to someone I am working with, and she told me to be more positive. The analogy I gave is; imagine a human trash can, and everyone who goes by drops their trash in him. Then, later one of them is angry, so they give him a swift kick, and they lament that only trash spills out. I think the only thing I would like to hear is that you understand why we would have different views, because maybe my experience or personality is different, and mine brings out worse qualities from people. The entire point of this place is that our personalities are not only not normal, they're varied in ways nobody understand very well. We see the outcome, though, and it sucks.

The "human trash can" analogy reminds me of the previous job I've talked about here quite a few times.

It was an extremely toxic environment and it wasn't long untill everyday someone came by to "drop their trash" in me. As usual I didn't rise to it. Eventually I was given a kick, and rightfully, some of the trash spilled out, not in an aggressive way, more in a "polite but assertive, holding people to account way".

The reason this happened I think, after a lot of reflection was due to hierarchy or the pecking order. Basically I was new, so "bottom of the pile" so I was the target for everyone's bad mood, aggression and frustration in my department.

Sometimes a few bad experiences make it seem like everyone is just coming to drop trash in you but not everyone and every place is like that. I understand why it can make you feel very cynical about people though.

 

[Misty Avich]

Empathy isn't something that's NTs or autistics are better or worse at, so it's not right to say one group has empathy and another group doesn't. We're all humans at the end of the day.

 

[DaisyRose]

I always show empathy where I work. I come in contact with people who are at the lowest part of their lives. It’s sad to see and I try to be empathetic and respectful. You truly don’t know what people go through until you see it. There can be people who straight up be rude and I show that attitude back. Be nice until it’s time to not be nice. If you’re nice to me, I’ll be nice back.

 

[Levitator]

The "human trash can" analogy reminds me of the previous job I've talked about here quite a few times.

It was an extremely toxic environment and it wasn't long untill everyday someone came by to "drop their trash" in me. As usual I didn't rise to it. Eventually I was given a kick, and rightfully, some of the trash spilled out, not in an aggressive way, more in a "polite but assertive, holding people to account way".

The reason this happened I think, after a lot of reflection was due to hierarchy or the pecking order. Basically I was new, so "bottom of the pile" so I was the target for everyone's bad mood, aggression and frustration in my department.

Sometimes a few bad experiences make it seem like everyone is just coming to drop trash in you but not everyone and every place is like that. I understand why it can make you feel very cynical about people though.

Well, as I said, my job was stolen from me, because I was assured it was permanent, but they lied, and they tossed me out in the street. I went to live with my parents, but they were involved in some manner of dirty politics, it made me really inconvenient to them, and the local mental health clinic in conjunction with the local police began working to paint me as a criminal with schizoaffective disorder, which is a lie, and is especially obvious as a lie, since I was labeled as "gifted" as a kid, and it only took them 30 years to notice that I'm allegedly a dangerous psycho. They offered me a bad check to cash, and when I turned it over to the police department, they falsified paperwork claiming I imagined it. Luckily, I kept the image of the check as proof that they committed fraud. My dad did a similar thing, filing false paperwork, and claiming that I flipped out and threatened to kill him. He committed perjury.

Very reasonably, I decided to leave the country, and I wound up on the street repeatedly, camping in a park in Colorodo. Then, my parents assured me I had a life and inheritance lined up in Mexico, but they lied, and left me out in the street yet again. Then, the bank botched my travel status on my debit card, and they caused me to spend Christmas sleeping on a sidewalk. Also, I was turned away by numerous churches, one of which called the FBI on me for asking for emotional and spiritual support, and they aggressively demanded to search my truck.

I don't know why I would ever be cynical or skeptical about human nature. It never even occurred to me. I'm sure it didn't look like I was holding back before. How about now? Did I explain myself enough? I can go back to whining like a teenager if that perturbs your peace less. I'm sorry reality works that way.

 

[Levitator]

Oh, yes, and then there is the missing piece, so that nobody says "Say, are you sure you're not actually a dangerous psycho who is imagining all this stuff". My father is from Cuba. He left behind a secret family, just like Yuri Bezmenov said. It's how they keep a leash on their people. So, even though I'm obnoxious by nature, and I'm made more obnoxious by appalling experiences, I hope you would cut me some slack.