Hierarchal Social Structures

[Gerald Wilgus]

From my earliest memories I have always been blind to heirarchies and have a strong resistance to authority. This has hindered my coping with political heirarchies and authoritarians, like cops, but has been beneficial in other aspects of my life. Admins learned that if they wanted a no nonsense assessment of technical or regulatory issues, I could be trusted. That gave me a lot of leeway in defining my work and I was in demand for projects especially when statistical design of experiments was required or efficient and effective ways to meet regulatory guidance was needed.

In dealing with physicians I always look upon that as a collaboration for my health. My primary care physician recognizes that I understand Biochemistry, Physiology and Microbiology and he seems to enjoy interacting to provide good results for me. Sometimes we discuss journal articles in deciding on appropriate therapies.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Printing wasn't just my trade, for many years it was my special interest as well. By trade I was a Lithographic printer but I also did Gravure and Letterpress.

You're an interesting person and I think we might have worked well together if the opportunity had arisen.


I can match them, that was one of my talents.

My talent also, we did gravure printing I think we as a company have matched every type of wood possible. For garage doors Faux wood grain, they really look realistic no competition. Plant working 24 hours day 7 days a week were working on roofing any type of metal shingles. Duplicate any pattern also printed siding. architects' imagination only limit. currently the company wants to transfer, the ability to other plants. Technically any coil coater can print. But most have no clue. My official trade was chemical engineering technologist or coating application technologist. I have exceptional colour vision but you cannot use SPC on this so I liked using the spectrophotometer, had formal education on it prints had to be matched visually. Basecoats by machine had to work out method to do inks by machine before putting online. We made ink with clear as a starting vehicle rather than white which ink guys say is not doable. 95% of my formulas have no white the previous ink chemist who I replaced. had a good chuck of his formulas 40 to 60% white. I had no expertise in inks before I took over. so started from scratch. The main difference is the lab personal I replaced were chemists I was more of an engineer.

 

[Au Naturel]

@Outdated

If you're still interested in developing your personal model of social structures, a suggestion:

Take a look at Evolutionary Psychology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
It doesn't map exactly onto the topic of this thread, but there's a significant overlap.

FWIW I found the wikipedia article a bit academic in style: it covers history, fundamental principles, context within the larger domain of psychology, different prevailing theories, research methods, criticisms, etc ... but they've forgotten to put in an accessible overview that describes it's core distinguishing characteristics, interesting discoveries and insights, and their relevance to modern thinking.

I'm still looking into it, so I can't fill the gap, but some ideas: broadly you could see it as looking at evolutionary pressures for explanations and new insights for how and why people think and act socially. Clearly this is linked to human hierarchies and small to medium levels of organization (not large - most evolution was before "the era of cities").

So the underlying scale is (small) tribal, and a significant tool is observing and analyzing current behaviors in terms of reproductive success in the context of hunter/gatherer societies.

I thought of it because it explains something (1 below) that took up a good part of my earlier post, and something (2 & 3) I deleted from it.

1. You can find in evolutionary psychology good reasons for the differences in what I suggested are different natural organizations in groups of women vs groups of men
2. Similarly it provides the simplest way I've ever come across to understand to explain the weird but extremely effective way men "organically" form small teams to get things done, and the nature of the inter-personal links that develop in different kinds of teams.
3. There should be a paragraph about the "organic" female equivalent of teams of men "on a mission", but I'm an Aspie male. Evolutionary psychology has explanations for the distinct styles inter-personal interactions that exist among female-centric groups, but I have negligible personal experience if it

BTW there's plenty more in evolutionary psychology, but I'm just starting with it. I have already found its explanatory power very useful, but I can't see myself ever learning enough to be able to e.g. improve the wikipedia article

You will probably like this.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

@Outdated

What you wrote in your OP is so natural and true to me as I had wrote it myself.

Even more. To me, what you wrote about its the non patological definition of autism.

Sensory stuff can be there or not, high intelligence can be there or not, looking to the eye can be there or not... But the hierarchy blindness is there ALWAYS.

We can study it, we can reverse engineer deduct it, we can observe the consecuences of it... But its invisible to us. And thats why any NT group will naturally bully an autist while an autist group will naturally accept a NT.

Once I meet a person who treats others like equals, not caring about titles, ornaments, power of hierarchy I think: This is one of my kind.

So yes, I think you nailed it.

 

[Kayla55]

I think this is 100% true. I always end up at the bottom of the social hierarchy in any friend group that I'm in, even though I am often well-liked otherwise, and I clearly have a strong and somewhat bold personality and I'm pretty extroverted. But in social groups I often end up taking a backseat to someone who is more popular and socially intelligent, whether I intend to or not.

I think it's just impossible for me (and a lot of other autistic people) to fit into traditional social norms, and we are often mistreated because of this, even by friends, although sometimes they don't realize they're doing it.

I often end up being the "last resort" friend, who everyone loves to invite to parties and social gatherings and activities because I'm fun and lively, but I'm usually the last person they reach out to when they want to spend quality time with someone. I also tend to get the least amount of one on one attention in a group.

I think my lack of interest in drinking alcohol at parties and on nights out contributes to this, because then people see me as a buzzkill or a prude. I just, 1.) don't really like drinking and rarely see a point to it, and 2.) I take an anticonvulsant and a blood pressure medication, so it's really hard to fit drinking into a time slot where it won't interfere with my meds.

@Outdated Thank you for this very insightful post, I think it is spot-on. It is also super nice to see you again! I hope all is well

Another key to social structure is primate recognition of sexes and degrading morals of our times classified deconstructive sexism or rather lack there of.
I suppose striking a conversation with meaningful element gets dark each ochnored. Suppose to giggle and act stupid.
At the end it's like raising your son's to die out of extinction, giving them all support men claim but can't do for themselves. Then taking backseat to listen to how the world does their manhood wrong.
Gosh, no wonder I don't bother to mask. It's not a compliment

 

[Fino]

I've heard or read our social hierarchy being compared most often to... I think it was gorillas.

 

[Outdated]

I've heard or read our social hierarchy being compared most often to... I think it was gorillas.

Chimps are very similar as well.

 

[Hypnalis]

Comparisons with other species are a bit tricky because of the odd monogamy/polygamy split in humans.

Genetics shows that in evolutionary terms, most males never had children.

History shows that more modern ("era of cities") cultures with general monogamy are more successful, and (unsurprisingly) a much higher proportion of men in those cultures have children.

Weirdly, modern western culture seems to be moving slowly towards polygamy.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Comparisons with other species are a bit tricky because of the odd monogamy/polygamy split in humans.

Genetics shows that in evolutionary terms, most males never had children.

History shows that more modern ("era of cities") cultures with general monogamy are more successful, and (unsurprisingly) a much higher proportion of men in those cultures have children.

Weirdly, modern western culture seems to be moving slowly towards polygamy.

Polygamy seems to have been the "natural" tribal way in out specie.

Human male penis are build in a way to extract others males semen from vaginas before ejaculating.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470490400200105
I will stop here, because its a very interesting topic for me and I could offtopic a lot.

 

[1ofakind]

My whole life, I have also struggled to understand social hierarchal structure. Cognitively, I can see it exists even though it does not make any logical sense to me when status overrides truth and/or dismisses truths. Sometimes, it seems like there is some innate human trait for power and control over others that I don't have being on the spectrum. For many people, it seems more important to be seen as "right" (Regardless of any flawed thinking), than striving to know what is "right" and true.

Maybe there is an ego part of all of this I have trouble grasping? It is so hard for me to understand when being respectful isn't enough (In regards to speaking truths) due to some hidden ego rulebook that I don't have. I would never want to hurt anyone! But the way I process language and its meaning seems very different from neurotypicals which makes grasping the rules surrounding the social heirarchy impossible for me despite my best efforts. Although, I have encountered a few groups of people who seemed less influenced by society's hierarchical ruleset, dynamics change over time and it didn't last.

 

[Au Naturel]

Polygamy seems to have been the "natural" tribal way in out specie.

Human male penis are build in a way to extract others males semen from vaginas before ejaculating.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/147470490400200105
I will stop here, because its a very interesting topic for me and I could offtopic a lot.

There is strong evidence that the reproductive strategy of a mammalian species can be predicted entirely by the relative sizes of the male and the female. Species with large males relative to small females are called tournament species. The males fight to win reproductive control over a herd of females. Species where males and females are the same size are typically monogamous. The father shares the responsibility for raising the young.

Humans are halfway between the two. Males are significantly larger than females but not overwhelmingly so. Humans can go either way.

Human monogamy is probably a compromise to keep males from killing each other over females. There is no human culture that did not develop some version of monogamy. Even so, it is honored almost as much in the breach as in the fulfillment. There are still a few religious states where polygamy is allowed for those with status, and none that I am aware of where polyandry is the norm. Most of the West is in some form of serial monogamy.

The sperm extraction theory of penis design leaves me extremely skeptical—too many obvious flaws in the reasoning.

 

[tazz]

Interesting thread.

My instinct was always to focus on the goal. So everyone in the team who has something to add should feel able to do so and be respected. In practice it meant that when I first started working I was sort of aware that there was a hierarchy but it didn't intimidate me. I'd say what I thought needed to be said, quite innocently. But then to my surprise this would get me into trouble or I'd be ignored. That lack of rationality really irked me. I think this was related to autism and my need for things to make sense. Actually, now I write this I wonder... in some sense hierarchy introduces order and predictability which I'd think would be good for autistics who value that sort of thing. But that's not it at all. Decisions made because "I'm in charge, shut up Tazz this is not a debate" are very far from rational and predictable.

Focusing on the goal is not a very common instinct. People are usually weighing up the needs of the project with their individual needs; the team's goals vs their own personal goals. I find this extremely frustrating.

I worked for a company for several years that was run on Quaker principles. I was asked to attend a Board meeting not too long after I joined. I was trying to get some significant funding for a project. It turned out that they made all decisions by consensus, not vote or dictate. It was quite impressive to see them operate - 30 world class engineers navigating a complex decision. It was so fast and precise, I couldn't follow the conversation. I even missed when the decision had actually been made - I was still trying to make my case when the chairman told me to sit down and shut up because I'd got the money. There was some good-natured laughter at my expense.

I've found that consensus is something that's very misunderstood. Most people I've worked with thought that it meant everyone has to agree - which isn't how it works when done properly.

As a team leader, I had competing issues. On the one hand, because I treated everyone as equal, the team really felt valued. But then it was difficult to assert my authority when it was required.

I think my overall sense from my years of work is that it was uncomfortable because i) social interaction was always anxiety provoking, and ii) there was irrational nonsense everywhere - built in to the personnel structure, operating procedures and individual psychology.

 

[Au Naturel]

People are usually weighing up the needs of the project with their individual needs; the team's goals vs their own personal goals.

That is a universal truth. It happens in every organization, every family, every social group. In something as tightly disciplined as a special forces team or as loose as a cafeteria clique. There is always a balancing act between individual and group needs, individual wants and what the group wants, and between differing power centers within the group. These groups are just proxies for a tribe.

Most people have a very deep instinctual need to belong to the tribe. Some want to lead; some want to follow; some want tight bonds; some want loose bonds. But without the tribe, you instinctively understand your life will be nasty, brutish, and short. A completely lone wolf does not do well.

 

[Shevek]

Sorry I'm late to this party. Verry interesting.

On the amusing end, I had a GF who wanted to replace some missing green plates from a set. I suggested she carry a saucer, of which she had more than cups, in her purse to compare with. Too risky. I suggested I just take one for one day, to make a paint chip at my sign job. Too risky. So, I came home and said I'd made a paint chip from memory. She scoffed, until I dropped it on her plate and it vanished.

Regarding hierarchies, I think that any group of three or more humans establishes a government, and three equal partners is as rare as the odds would suggest. I too was blind to status many times, but I found that people at the top of their profession were able to overlook my lack of formal education and appreciate my results. People not sure of their own ability would not go out on a limb with me. Socially, I wind up with other outcasts and artists.

When I had an infected cyst on my back, and the Dr. asked why I was there, I suggested the diagnosis, but said I couldn't see it, and he was the expert. He didn't mind the suggestion. He took it out during an office visit, saving me a lot of hassle. The rest of the staff had been trying to pass me around to increase billing. That's probably the other main motivation for rejecting an expert but amateur diagnosis. It isn't just authority at stake, there's a profit center that might get cured far too easily.

I should look at evolutionary psychology. I am still very enthused about the insights from Sociobiology, one pillar of which is that throughout history, men could never be sure if the children were his. I think that men and women evolved with complimentary instincts to team up and raise kids. The infidelity rate had to be low enough to keep fathers supporting a vastly extended childhood as our brains grew, but high enough to keep the gene pool fresh, etc.
Because mothers knew the babies were hers, and she had to put tremendous effort into gestation and nursing, it was natural for her to stay home, while the man went off foraging and protecting the nest. She had to deal with dependents who remained a hazard to themselves and others for years. He had to deal with his peers, and with mortal threats in both directions, without flinching. She had to be an emotional acrobat, dealing with several children in different moods. He had to be honest and trustworthy, and sometimes work in a team. She had to protect the children from realities too harsh or complex for their years.

So, for men, the highest truth is one that can be verified by experiment and prevail in court. For women, the highest truth is the story that brings the most happiness and harmony inside her home, whatever the true facts. This goes for matters both great and small. Woe to the visitor who lets slip bits of information such as the identity of either Santa Claus, or the children's biological father.

 

[tazz]

Sometimes, it seems like there is some innate human trait for power and control over others that I don't have being on the spectrum.

This is interesting to me. I wonder this myself. Anyone know of any research in this area?

On a vaguely related note, whenever I think of this it reminds of "Operators and Things" by Babara O'Brien:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Operators-Things-Inner-Life-Schizophrenic/dp/0615509282
There's a wonderful although disturbing account of her experiences with power and control towards the beginning of the book.

It's a short book. Very detailed in parts. But still well worth a read. I'm sure it's available for free somewhere on the internet.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

This is something I've struggled to put in to words for many years. I still don't think I have it quite right though and would appreciate feedback.

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Hierarchal Social Structures


Most people live with and require a hierarchal structure in their social groups. There will be a leader of the group, second rank, third rank, etc. right down to the lowliest and newest member of the group. Most people seem to be able to navigate these structures of hierarchy with ease and effortlessly place themselves in the correct rank without even realising that they are doing so.

Ref: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2020.0440

Most autistic people are unable to live like this. We often do not recognise the social cues that I believe must exist there somewhere and instead we tend to treat all people as our equals. This causes no problems for people that consider themselves to be lower ranking within a group but it irritates and frustrates people that consider themselves to be our betters.

It irritates and frustrates us too because we refuse to be meekly put in our place, in truth we don’t even understand that we have a place to be put in. This always leads to conflict, most obvious as children in a school yard but more problematic in a work place environment. People that refuse to meekly accept their place within a hierarchal structure will be bullied and victimised by most other members of the group until they relent and accept their place. No matter how high functioning autistic people are it seems we are simply not capable of doing this.

I was lucky in my early life in that I learnt a physical trade. In a trade environment social status is acquired by productivity. By skill, knowledge, ability, quality of work produced, speed at which work is produced, and reliability. This was a form of hierarchy that I understood and worked well with. Although I had social issues with some employers I was highly valued and usually exempted from having to try and fit in with any other form of social hierarchy.

It wasn’t until my trade (printing) started to die out and I had to work in other environments that I began to realise just how protected I had been. At this time I knew nothing about autism and I really struggled to cope with the world I found myself in. It was many years later before I began to understand what had happened to me.

This hierarchal structure affects many different aspects of our lives, including access to medical help. Most doctors believe they rank highly in a societal hierarchy because they have a PhD, and they seem naturally offended by high functioning autistic people who don’t meekly submit to that structure. I have had problems with doctors most of my life because of the way they react to me. I speak very clearly and describe what I believe is wrong politely and eloquently but most doctors have a knee jerk reaction to my lack of deference.

They will listen attentively to what I am saying and then deliberately go out of their way to prove me wrong, to prove that they are smarter than me and higher ranking in society than me. They will completely ignore all of my symptoms and go against all medical training and even defy logic in order to try and make me accept that they are of a higher social rank than me. Misdiagnosis is guaranteed.

I have met a few doctors over the years who don’t live by this hierarchal structure and have no social issues with me, I have found those doctors to be very clever, insightful and helpful. Those doctors are extremely rare though and as I get older I find myself having less and less faith in the medical profession in general.

An inability to navigate complex social hierarchies also dramatically affects our social lives. Most of us tend to only have one or two close friends and prefer to socialise in one on one situations. This negates most of the need for a form of hierarchy. Other social relationships tend to be kept more at arm’s length because we struggle to fit in and find our place. This also shows in the sports we tend to prefer, avoiding team situations and mostly aiming for personal achievements.

We are all social creatures and we need companionship, we need to feel like we belong and that we are part of a community, but most of us are incapable of learning the skills required. Our brains don’t work that way.

That is where it is wrong for anyone
Who is to say there should be a status on anyone, what makes a person better than another, intelligence, money, looks?
In terms of social norms I do not really get them except people may often perceive someone to be a certain way or think a certain way.
But intelligence and knowledge you will often have to mask because people will question how you know the things you do
And often can think you are arrogant for saying you are intelligent
If you went up to a health professional and said you thought you had autism and are self diagnosed. They were question it or wonder how you did really know
People do not have a clue about autistic behaviour and often think it is to do with lack of verbal skills or facial expressions or something but it is in a spectrum and you may do ok socially but underneath it all you have all kinds of battles and struggles. And may become non verbal at times and socially burnt out and may need rest and space at times. Or have bad days where you want to cancel plans
Or with ADHD days of severe disorganisation or getting behind when you know you need to keep a good schedule to sleep well.
It is hard being autistic and lonely at times, you can feel like a stranger and alien to the world

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

I think this is 100% true. I always end up at the bottom of the social hierarchy in any friend group that I'm in, even though I am often well-liked otherwise, and I clearly have a strong and somewhat bold personality and I'm pretty extroverted. But in social groups I often end up taking a backseat to someone who is more popular and socially intelligent, whether I intend to or not.

I think it's just impossible for me (and a lot of other autistic people) to fit into traditional social norms, and we are often mistreated because of this, even by friends, although sometimes they don't realize they're doing it.

I often end up being the "last resort" friend, who everyone loves to invite to parties and social gatherings and activities because I'm fun and lively, but I'm usually the last person they reach out to when they want to spend quality time with someone. I also tend to get the least amount of one on one attention in a group.

I think my lack of interest in drinking alcohol at parties and on nights out contributes to this, because then people see me as a buzzkill or a prude. I just, 1.) don't really like drinking and rarely see a point to it, and 2.) I take an anticonvulsant and a blood pressure medication, so it's really hard to fit drinking into a time slot where it won't interfere with my meds.

@Outdated Thank you for this very insightful post, I think it is spot-on. It is also super nice to see you again! I hope all is well

Yes I like the thought of going to a party but hate people drinking especially to excess and drugs, sex outside marriage like clubs and often all the seedy underline.
As well as I think club music is too loud, the music at least has to be a bearable level and not too bright lights and not too many people still space
And rooms you can go in to have some quiet if it all becomes too much or if you want to go home.

 

[Shevek]

That is where it is wrong for anyone
Who is to say there should be a status on anyone, what makes a person better than another, intelligence, money, looks?
In terms of social norms I do not really get them except people may often perceive someone to be a certain way or think a certain way.
But intelligence and knowledge you will often have to mask because people will question how you know the things you do
And often can think you are arrogant for saying you are intelligent
If you went up to a health professional and said you thought you had autism and are self diagnosed. They were question it or wonder how you did really know
People do not have a clue about autistic behaviour and often think it is to do with lack of verbal skills or facial expressions or something but it is in a spectrum and you may do ok socially but underneath it all you have all kinds of battles and struggles. And may become non verbal at times and socially burnt out and may need rest and space at times. Or have bad days where you want to cancel plans
Or with ADHD days of severe disorganisation or getting behind when you know you need to keep a good schedule to sleep well.
It is hard being autistic and lonely at times, you can feel like a stranger and alien to the world

Well, we start out with the status of fully dependent, and remain a hazard to both ourselves and others for years. Overall, our parents are wise and benign, so people learn to respond in dependent and authority roles right in the home. Those same response patterns get adapted to other situations, such as a job, where the older workers know what needs to be done. However, as we move into adulthood, we have an increasing incidence of people suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and being mistaken about being a reliable authority. Who's to say? There are objective methods, but for some people, the only pattern they "know" is that authority comes with age.

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

Well, we start out with the status of fully dependent, and remain a hazard to both ourselves and others for years. Overall, our parents are wise and benign, so people learn to respond in dependent and authority roles right in the home. Those same response patterns get adapted to other situations, such as a job, where the older workers know what needs to be done. However, as we move into adulthood, we have an increasing incidence of people suffering from Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and being mistaken about being a reliable authority. Who's to say? There are objective methods, but for some people, the only pattern they "know" is that authority comes with age.

I wish I could have been more dependent on my parents, they were just not that to me and it makes me really broken hearted and sad and like love does not exist for me but I still turned out really loving and caring regardless but
It is hard living your life alone with very little support and something a lot of people I know go through childhood trauma and hard to heal from.
If you have even one supportive parent well people are very lucky.
I know my parents love me but I get sad and cannot understand why I do not get what I need from them.
It is hard knowing what everyone's childhood is like and how they find love because even with my faith I get very lonely without love the way I need

 

[Shevek]

I wish I could have been more dependent on my parents, they were just not that to me and it makes me really broken hearted and sad and like love does not exist for me but I still turned out really loving and caring regardless but
It is hard living your life alone with very little support and something a lot of people I know go through childhood trauma and hard to heal from.
If you have even one supportive parent well people are very lucky.
I know my parents love me but I get sad and cannot understand why I do not get what I need from them.
It is hard knowing what everyone's childhood is like and how they find love because even with my faith I get very lonely without love the way I need

As an aspie with an aspie mother who thought that pre-verbal children were like larva, to feed and ignore, I have a major attachment disorder. It is still trying to form bonds, but they never last. Only one made me cry, and it was for a whole community. I think it is easier for me to handle this because as a male, I've always had my feelings discounted.