I can’t believe this is happening?

[tazz]

It’s sad because we know more about space than our own ocean.

Yeah but... aliens!

 

[Judge]

It’s sad because we know more about space than our own ocean.

A point made abundantly clear when Project Mercury astronaut Scott Carpenter left the program to pursue being an oceanographer instead.

 

[tripleU]

It’s sad because we know more about space than our own ocean.

Space is nothing, the ocean is something, a lot of it.

 

[Progster]

Space is nothing

I wonder where all that dark matter is hiding.

 

[tripleU]

I wonder where all that dark matter is hiding.

That matter is like nothing, easy to get through

 

[Progster]

That matter is like nothing, easy to get through

It's an oxymoron, because from the moment you contemplate its existence, it is no longer nothing, but something. Anything that truly is nothing can only exist as a theoretical concept. You couldn't even be aware of it, because, again, if you become aware of it, then it becomes something and not nothing.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

More cash than brains. I hate ridiculing people who probably died horribly and painfully, though.

In a catastrophic hull implosion your CNS will have no time to react. The engineering of that sub, especially the viewport, was not certified to to the intended depth. A hull that could delaminate rather than a contiguous material like acrylic? What profound engineering malpractice! I have no tears for billionaires who could not have made that money ethically, not in this day of a rentier economy and monopoly capitalism.

 

[tripleU]

It's an oxymoron, because from the moment you contemplate its existence, it is no longer nothing, but something. Anything that truly is nothing can only exist as a theoretical concept. You couldn't even be aware of it, because, again, if you become aware of it, then it becomes something and not nothing.

Make a third very abstract state of something existing and not existing at the same time, I love abstract things.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I understand that the Titan was an experimental submersible, not subject to routine safety laws, and had made a number of successful dives. Lawsuits surely will follow even though the passengers contractually signed away their rights and willingly and knowingly accepted the risks. It is a tragedy indeed.

It sounds like it was engineered by some e-startup poser. The supposed safety feature were sensors to warn of hull delamination. By that time a cascade failure would be well underway. At 6,000 psi only uniform, contiguous, materials are acceptable. And flanges and other penetration anchors must be free of deformation by forces of 6,000lb x the dimension of the penetration in in². One does not design to rely on sensing failure, one designs to exceed the safety necessary to overcome all failure modes. And, have backup! I would never think of diving to a depth of 100 feet without a diving buddy with a maintained and working emergency regulator. I have encountered events that required an assisted ascent using my spare regulator.

 

[AdamG]

It’s sad because we know more about space than our own ocean.

In many ways, deep ocean is more inaccessible than space. To access space, all you need is to achieve escape velocity in a strong pressurized vessel. For deep ocean, the pressure increases the further down one goes. So making a hull to that level of varying strength is quite a lot more challenging than just keeping pressure of 14.7 psi inside.
.
Plus, yes space has its obstacles. But in the deep, I'd say there are more of them with more frequency.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

It's a real shame that the person who ordered everything built thought that safety standards got in the way of innovation, purchased substandard parts, changed the original design without testing and used carbon fiber instead of steel for the hull.

According the the Coast Guard today, the sub imploded though on the original descent after loosing control. Thankfully, implosion happens faster than the human brain can detect, at least it was painless.

The saying "safety standards are written in blood" is unfortunately really true and it's a shame that this guy thought ignoring them was a good idea. I don't know how he got away with running a tourism thing with a US based company without having to follow required safety standards though.

Funny how the so-called innovators think that standards get in their way. They cobbled together a sub that was little more than a Calvin and Hobbes cardboard box. A site commenting on this had this to say. " . . . the whole world is getting a vivid and evocative illustration of the fact that safety regulations don't exist to impose artificial consequences on dangerous actions, but to prevent the natural consequences of dangerous actions." I'm sorta glad that the CEO who thought safety was not necessary suffered the consequences of his stupidity. And I bet he did not have an engineer and oceanographer do a FMEA (Failure Mode Effects Analysis).

The article goes on to say:
"Regulations would have prevented anyone from boarding a $250,000 deathtrap for disaster tourists.
And yes, yes, I know. No national regulatory authority applied to an operation in international waters. Instead of treating that as a loophole, OceanGate could have chosen to accept the regulations exist for good reason and hewed to them as a best practice."

 

[Forest Cat]

Funny how the so-called innovators think that standards get in their way. They cobbled together a sub that was little more than a Calvin and Hobbes cardboard box. A site commenting on this had this to say. " . . . the whole world is getting a vivid and evocative illustration of the fact that safety regulations don't exist to impose artificial consequences on dangerous actions, but to prevent the natural consequences of dangerous actions." I'm sorta glad that the CEO who thought safety was not necessary suffered the consequences of his stupidity. And I bet he did not have an engineer and oceanographer do a FMEA (Failure Mode Effects Analysis).

The article goes on to say:
"Regulations would have prevented anyone from boarding a $250,000 deathtrap for disaster tourists.
And yes, yes, I know. No national regulatory authority applied to an operation in international waters. Instead of treating that as a loophole, OceanGate could have chosen to accept the regulations exist for good reason and hewed to them as a best practice."

6000 pounds of pressure per square inch. It's mind-boggling that anyone could play fast and loose with numbers like that.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

6000 pounds of pressure per square inch. It's mind-boggling that anyone could play fast and loose with numbers like that.

Yet, it boggles my mind that they relied on a laminated hull subject to interlayer dimensional stress. Pressure hulls made from acrylic meet the standards in ASME PVHO-1. The material is uniform and contiguous and was first used by Picard for viewports.

 

[17thCenturySven]

More cash than brains. I hate ridiculing people who probably died horribly and painfully, though.

The discussions of the "catastrophic implosion" that I have seen indicate that the destruction of the sub would have been so fast that death would have been near instantaneous, with no awareness of what was going on. It may have been a horrible death, but it does appear that it would have been painless.

 

[Alaric593]

The discussions of the "catastrophic implosion" that I have seen indicate that the destruction of the sub would have been so fast that death would have been near instantaneous, with no awareness of what was going on. It may have been a horrible death, but it does appear that it would have been painless.

Correct. They were dead before they knew what was going on; at best they heard the initial sounds of the start, then were dead before they could discern what the sounds were.

 

[MildredHubble]

Yet, it boggles my mind that they relied on a laminated hull subject to interlayer dimensional stress. Pressure hulls made from acrylic meet the standards in ASME PVHO-1. The material is uniform and contiguous and was first used by Picard for viewports.

The problem is reason by analogy. Carbon fibre is grossly over sold as a wonder material. Its great until it's mildly compromised and then it starts to tear up and disintegrate like poor Papier mache. People think because race cars are made out of it that it must be super strong. But anyone who has seen a formula 1 crash knows just how readily it disintegrates.

Someone has the bright spark idea of "hey they make race cars with it and carbon fibre is stronger than steel! Let's use it to make a submarine!". The issue is that carbon fibre is only really stronger than steel in certain applications.

It can be used build pressurised containers, but the pressure is all contained on the inside. With a submarine it's the other way round. A submarine has the weight/pressure of all that water bearing down on it, stressing the laminates. I've heard that all it would take would be a small pin prick hole and all that water would burst in faster than the speed of sound. The only saving grace is that it likely would have been so quick the occupants wouldn't have known about it or suffered.

It's cruelly ironic that it was named the Titan, and just as with it's partial namesake, all the warnings and safety regulations were ignored leading to tragedy.

 

[Jeff T]

People are curious.
Wealthy people with funds and time on their hands are able to satisfy their curiosity.

I can see in the future a resuming of such extreme tours.
The powerful and wealthy will be able to once again ogle over the remains of the Titanic, and the Titan also.
The similarity of the names of the vessels mimic the entitled behaviour of the 'captains' of each....

 

[Qoyote]

This has been a very interesting story cause turns out a lot of "nonviolent pacifists" out there want blood, and they're wolfing it down like a dog getting meat in their kibble. So many people were laughing even when we thought they all drowned horribly. I'm no different, I'm too angry, but at least I know what kind of person I am rather than talk about how "civilized" I am.

 

[Progster]

Make a third very abstract state of something existing and not existing at the same time, I love abstract things.

Quantum mechanics.
I enjoy thought experiments, too.

People are curious.
Wealthy people with funds and time on their hands are able to satisfy their curiosity.

Yes, just as people will continue to climb Everest despite the huge number of deaths associated with it, or continue to go into space despite the risks involved.

 

[tripleU]

Quantum mechanics.
I enjoy thought experiments, too.

Yes, just as people will continue to climb Everest despite the huge number of deaths associated with it, or continue to go into space despite the risks involved.

Which thought experiments?