Ideas for educating the public about AS

[OliveOilMom]

"If given the opportunity" is a HUGE if. Aspies are at a huge disadvantage during the interview process.



In real life it would be extremely unlikely that either would make it past the interview process, if they got that far, at least in present day USA. Networking is key to obtaining employment, and successfully navigating office politics is usually key to keeping them. Social skills are disproportionately valued, because many people are uncomfortable working around socially awkward people. It comes back to society not being able to accurately measure a person's potential value.

There are lots of highly intelligent aspies who would love to find work appropriate to their intellectual ability and skill set. Being qualified isn't enough to get a job.

(Incidentally, I've had a supervisor tell me I was his most valuable worker and fire me in the same breath. I seriously doubt that's a unique experience among aspies.)



That the unemployment rate for aspies is an order of magnitude higher than for the general workforce strongly supports my point and severely undermines the supposition that aspies are fairly valued by the labor market.

"Although research on the topic is limited, most experts agree the unemployment rate for people with Asperger's is as high as 85 percent, according to the Autism Support Network."

I have As and have been diagnosed with it. I'm stating that so someone doesn't decide that my ability to do something simply means that I don't have AS and and that a self diagnosis was wrong. I can also get a job. I've worked many times, for years at a time and in different jobs - some that I had to take just to earn money and other jobs that I wanted to try so I managed to talk my way into them and succeeded at them. Not everybody fails an interview. I would have if I hadn't learned how to come across and how to present myself. Thats an important thing and if it means "making you act NT'" then so what? I come across as NT I suppose, and it's worked fine for me. It was hard at first but over time it's become second nature and I've found ways to work my quirks into my personality so what you see when you meet me is actually me and not some front I'm putting on.

The resistance to changing how you act, what you say and how you say it, your body language, etc is a major factor in not passing an interview. NT's have to change how they come across too you know, but it's harder for us but doable to a certain extent.

I had to learn how to come across, what to do, what to say, how to act, how to dress, how to walk, body language, etc etc etc, not just to get a job but to not stay some outcast for the rest of my life. I'm more than happy to teach anyone these things, but it's very hard. It took me years to not stand out in a crowd like a complete freak. I didn't always succeed and it took failure after failure and practice and practice and more practice and it wasn't pleasant.

It's not a complicated thing, but it is a very hard thing to actually do and do well. Once you can do it though, your confidence really improves.

I've had this conversation on WP on the love and dating forum many times. Giving guys advice about changing little things about themselves so that they can just get a girl to have a conversation with them so she can get to know them and form an opinion of them based on their personality and who they are rather than the glaring things that make her ignore him, but I either get 1. It's too hard, it's impossible, I can't change because I tried once years ago for a week or 2. I shouldn't have to change, girls should want me for me and not care about <insert whatever the problem is that they are doing or not doing>. Both of those are, or can be true to different extents. In a perfect world people wouldn't have to change anything about themselves, but everybody has to change something, sometimes - we just have to change more things more often. While some people really are unable to make a big improvement everybody can make a small improvement. Eventually, I quit trying to suggest things to help them and so did other aspies there who were also trying to give them advice, and absolutely nothing ever changed for them.

So, there are plenty of ways to change and many things are easy to spot when you know what to look for. I'm happy to help anybody who wants it and is committed to working hard and making the changes so they can get the opportunities and experiences they want out of life.

 

[Jaywalker]

I don't lump every dislike into conspiracy theory. Not at all. I lump the conspiracy theories into it though. I can see the difference between disliking their media campaigns and disliking the fact that genetic research may lead to prenatal tests which will lead to abortions vs. someone deciding that they have an ulterior motive and master plan to wipe out all autistics, institutionalize and torture us, legally remove all our rights, and remove us from society altogether. The former is opinion, the latter is conspiracy theory. I see more conspiracy theory based paranoia about them than I do simple dislike.

The primary criticism I see is that Autism Speaks sees autism as a problem to be fixed. Most on the spectrum see the problem as society's lack of understanding and acceptance of autism as the problem.

 

[OliveOilMom]

The primary criticism I see is that Autism Speaks sees autism as a problem to be fixed. Most on the spectrum see the problem as society's lack of understanding and acceptance of autism as the problem.

Most people see it as a problem to be fixed. I see it that way for the most part. If I could get rid of the problems I have from the AS, I'd be happy to do that. Whats so wrong with seeing it as a problem?

Understanding and acceptance only goes so far. It doesn't change the persons abilities.

I don't know of any parent who would jump for job when told that their child has autism. All would be concerned and want to get treatments for him to help him live a better life and have more opportunities. Parents understand and accept more than anyone else does, but they also have to prepare their child for life when they are gone and unable to take care of them anymore.

If you are going to be against everyone who sees autism as a problem and not a wonderful rainbow and unicorn surprise party then you are going to be against almost everyone in the world except for certain people on the spectrum who see it as a gift or a slight difference or even those who consider it superior.

 

[Jaywalker]

I have As and have been diagnosed with it. I'm stating that so someone doesn't decide that my ability to do something simply means that I don't have AS and and that a self diagnosis was wrong. I can also get a job. I've worked many times, for years at a time and in different jobs - some that I had to take just to earn money and other jobs that I wanted to try so I managed to talk my way into them and succeeded at them. Not everybody fails an interview. I would have if I hadn't learned how to come across and how to present myself. Thats an important thing and if it means "making you act NT'" then so what? I come across as NT I suppose, and it's worked fine for me. It was hard at first but over time it's become second nature and I've found ways to work my quirks into my personality so what you see when you meet me is actually me and not some front I'm putting on.

The resistance to changing how you act, what you say and how you say it, your body language, etc is a major factor in not passing an interview. NT's have to change how they come across too you know, but it's harder for us but doable to a certain extent.

I had to learn how to come across, what to do, what to say, how to act, how to dress, how to walk, body language, etc etc etc, not just to get a job but to not stay some outcast for the rest of my life. I'm more than happy to teach anyone these things, but it's very hard. It took me years to not stand out in a crowd like a complete freak. I didn't always succeed and it took failure after failure and practice and practice and more practice and it wasn't pleasant.

It's not a complicated thing, but it is a very hard thing to actually do and do well. Once you can do it though, your confidence really improves.

I've had this conversation on WP on the love and dating forum many times. Giving guys advice about changing little things about themselves so that they can just get a girl to have a conversation with them so she can get to know them and form an opinion of them based on their personality and who they are rather than the glaring things that make her ignore him, but I either get 1. It's too hard, it's impossible, I can't change because I tried once years ago for a week or 2. I shouldn't have to change, girls should want me for me and not care about <insert whatever the problem is that they are doing or not doing>. Both of those are, or can be true to different extents. In a perfect world people wouldn't have to change anything about themselves, but everybody has to change something, sometimes - we just have to change more things more often. While some people really are unable to make a big improvement everybody can make a small improvement. Eventually, I quit trying to suggest things to help them and so did other aspies there who were also trying to give them advice, and absolutely nothing ever changed for them.

So, there are plenty of ways to change and many things are easy to spot when you know what to look for. I'm happy to help anybody who wants it and is committed to working hard and making the changes so they can get the opportunities and experiences they want out of life.

Perhaps many of us are more strongly or differently affected by AS than you.

I've held many (probably 25+, if I were to count them all) jobs over the years, some for days, some for months, some for years. Of those, exactly two were the result of an interview, and in both of those cases, I was the only applicant with experience or training. Every other job I've had came as a result of knowing the right person or a strict hiring procedure (e.g., student employment, graduate assistant) such that the application process was a technicality, sometimes even occurring days after I started the job.

I've had many, many interviews. I just don't interview well. Although I've only recently been diagnosed with AS, I don't see any amount of coping methods changing that. I don't interview well, and the probability of finding work appropriate to my skill set and education is very slim. I lack the social skills to win the opportunity.

 

[OliveOilMom]

Perhaps many of us are more strongly or differently affected by AS than you.

I've held many (probably 25+, if I were to count them all) jobs over the years, some for days, some for months, some for years. Of those, exactly two were the result of an interview, and in both of those cases, I was the only applicant with experience or training. Every other job I've had came as a result of knowing the right person or a strict hiring procedure (e.g., student employment, graduate assistant) such that the application process was a technicality, sometimes even occurring days after I started the job.

I've had many, many interviews. I just don't interview well. Although I've only recently been diagnosed with AS, I don't see any amount of coping methods changing that. I don't interview well, and the probability of finding work appropriate to my skill set and education is very slim. I lack the social skills to win the opportunity.

Well, looking back I can see how badly I was affected by my AS when I was young. Also, I didn't go into learning to change with the mindset that I have something wrong with me that makes it difficult or impossible to change anything, and I also didn't go into it with the idea that I shouldn't have to change at all so I'm taking the moral high ground and not changing and just dealing with sh*t for the rest of my life. I was young and determined and even then I got discouraged more than I got decent results. I was obsessed with learning these things and doing them and changing myself and I had that aspie singlemindedness that caused me to push myself beyond my comfort zone, my ability, my energy level and even my endurance many times. Thats what it took for me to start making changes in myself.

As for what I learned, I'm not talking about coping methods. I'm not talking about working with my deficits and taking deep breaths and thinking about a tropical island and horses or something lol. I'm talking about purposefully suppressing the things that I needed to and forcing myself to speak, move, act, have facial expressions etc completely different from what came naturally to me. I had to learn the absolute basics of those things and force myself to do them. I had to force myself to think up phrases and things to say and ways to pause or fill in the blanks so I could wrack my brain to remember what I should say or do next, etc. I didn't worry about calming myself down, it was all about putting on a completely different persona at first. It did not feel right or like me or anything, but it worked. Over time I was able to put myself back into it and it became very comfortable.

What are the things you do that cause you not to be able to pass an interview? Do you know how you are coming across badly? Has anyone ever pointed out things to you? My friends pointed out things to me, at my request. I asked them to tell me every single time I did something wrong and show me how to do it right. How do you come across wrong?

 

[Jaywalker]

Most people see it as a problem to be fixed.

Not most people actually affected by it. That's a pretty uncommon view among that subset of the population.

Fixing ASD is analogous to fixing homosexuality. The very idea is based in bigotry. It presumes that those with ASD are lesser humans.

I have no desire to be NT. I'll happily put up with the downsides of ASD in order to enjoy the strengths with which it has provided me. What I do want is for society to accept me and value me for what I have to offer.

Society needs fixed, not me. In a very real sense, this is just the next front of the civil rights movement.

 

[OliveOilMom]

Also, you said most aspies don't live normal lives and aren't normal. Whether or not thats true for the people here I don't know but I do know that on WP I met a whole lot of aspies who did. Many of them had learned how to come across and made the changes they needed to so they could get a job, relationships, etc. Every single one of them said the same thing I do, and that's that you have to change things about yourself at times and if you aren't willing to try it then you won't ever have the chances you want. It's a sad and hard truth that some people can't change and can't get the chances they want, but many can. Why is it a bad thing to show that many of us have happy, normal, successful lives? You say that Autism Speaks promotes autism as something wrong, so why is it a bad thing to show how some of us with autism don't need to be fixed and are living our lives just fine?

 

[Jaywalker]

I'm not talking about coping methods. I'm not talking about working with my deficits and taking deep breaths and thinking about a tropical island and horses or something lol. I'm talking about purposefully suppressing the things that I needed to and forcing myself to speak, move, act, have facial expressions etc completely different from what came naturally to me.

As I said, some of us are clearly more strongly and/or differently affected by ASD than you. It's great that you can do that, but it's not realistic to expect that of all aspies.

 

[OliveOilMom]

Not most people actually affected by it. That's a pretty uncommon view among that subset of the population.

Fixing ASD is analogous to fixing homosexuality. The very idea is based in bigotry. It presumes that those with ASD are lesser humans.

I have no desire to be NT. I'll happily put up with the downsides of ASD in order to enjoy the strengths with which it has provided me. What I do want is for society to accept me and value me for what I have to offer.

Society needs fixed, not me. In a very real sense, this is just the next front of the civil rights movement.

It's not civil rights at all. Autism isn't a race it's a medical condition.

Comparing it to the civil rights movement to make it sound noble doesn't change the fact that it's a medical condition that causes problems and deficits.
If you want to dig in your heels and live your life along the same lines as a bus protest then go for it. We certainly need accommodations and acceptance but we need those things because of the medical condition we are born with. You can see yourself as standing up for your cause all day long but that won't help you get a job, or relationships or financial security or opportunities or happiness, unless you only base your happiness on your perseverance at this.

I changed the things about how I came across and interacted with people that needed to be changed. It was hard. It's probably doable by many people with AS because as much as people might want to believe it, I was not that mild then. As a result of my efforts I had relationships, I had jobs, I went to college and while I didnt finish either time, that was my own choice and I didn't finish for regular reasons - once I quit to move and get married and once I quit when I was pregnant, both times I planned on going back but real life got in the way.

If I had not changed those things about myself then I believe I would have still been living with my mother when she died last year and I would be completely lost, alone, incapable of taking care of myself now, and absolutely clueless as to what I need to do to survive and entirely too old to make the changes I need to. Instead of that, I have a husband of 28 years, four grown children, a grandbaby, a home of my own, I've had jobs and I've enjoyed many of them, I've done many, many things I wanted to do in life, I've taken chances and I've lived with the good or bad results, I've basically had a good life. I credit the changes I started making when I was 13 years old with the fact that I was able to have the life I've had.

I wouldn't trade any of that for living unhappily and without options simply to hold on to a principle.

 

[Jaywalker]

Whether or not thats true for the people here I don't know but I do know that on WP I met a whole lot of aspies who did.

The aspies, diagnosed and suspected, I've met in real life would in no way be considered normal by a typical NT. Some of them perceived themselves as pretty normal, though.

At any rate, the plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[OliveOilMom]

As I said, some of us are clearly more strongly and/or differently affected by ASD than you. It's great that you can do that, but it's not realistic to expect that of all aspies.

I'm not that affected by it now. Because I made changes and learned how to present myself and act and speak. I was basically pretty bad as a child and young teenager. I had more problems than you know or probably want to admit that I had, because if I did it then it could be done by more people than who are doing it. Many other aspies have done the same thing as I have. I never said everybody could do it, or to the same extent that I have, and there are many out there who have done it much better than I have, but isn't it worth a shot to try?

Why is it so bad to attempt changes when they could have such good results for you?

As I said, some may not be able to get the same results I have, others may have better results than I did. But even if it's not to the extent you want, isn't any positive change better than nothing?

 

[OliveOilMom]

The aspies, diagnosed and suspected, I've met in real life would in no way be considered normal by a typical NT. Some of them perceived themselves as pretty normal, though.

At any rate, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Cute sound byte but I never attempted to present anything as scientific data. I see that you are simply resistant to attempting any changes or improvements in yourself and thats up to you. It's no skin off my nose whether or not you try any self improvement or ever find the happiness or achieve the goals you want in life or not.

It's pretty interesting though, how instead of putting any effort into changing your situation you put it into arguments as to why you can't or shouldn't have to make changes. Why should everybody else make changes for us and we shouldn't ever make any for them?

 

[OliveOilMom]

Either way, I'm done with this argument with you about this and plan on just focusing on how to educate the general population about what people with AS can accomplish. You can continue to believe and preach that we can't and shouldn't change, and others can do so as well. Meanwhile, those of us who made efforts and realize that we are not exempted from living in the real world can work on the education which might eventually benefit you in some way.

Don't worry, we will handle it. You sit back and wait to just get the good things from other's efforts.

 

[Jaywalker]

It's not civil rights at all. Autism isn't a race it's a medical condition.

Homosexuality, which is what I compared it to, is also not a race, yet is an aspect of the civil rights movement. Civil rights does not imply race relations.

I can't help but notice that you hold a rather unique (among aspies) view of ASD as something to be fixed. You also speak favorably and extensively of Autism Speaks, which holds that same view, despite most adults with ASD seeing things differently. Further, you come across as more NT than most of the NT posters on here. Help me make sense of that combination.

 

[OliveOilMom]

Homosexuality, which is what I compared it to, is also not a race, yet is an aspect of the civil rights movement. Civil rights does not imply race relations.

I can't help but notice that you hold a rather unique (among aspies) view of ASD as something to be fixed. You also speak favorably and extensively of Autism Speaks, which holds that same view, despite most adults with ASD seeing things differently. Further, you come across as more NT than most of the NT posters on here. Help me make sense of that combination.

It's common sense and life experience. If you would like to come up with a conspiracy theory about me, feel free. A few people here know me from WP where I posted for years and I know several people from there away from the forum, so I'm legit. Whether or not you want to formulate a reason for me not thinking, believing, understanding and living like you do won't change the facts of my situation.

Maybe growing up and then living most of my life not being aware that I had AS and learning to adapt and function in the world without someone telling me that I shouldn't be able to do that is one reason I don't think like a lot of adult aspies. I was diagnosed in middle age after going to a psychiatrist about a completely unrelated problem. After that was treated, which took a couple of years, I still went to therapy because I felt it helped me deal with stress. She had noticed some things about me that made her suspect AS and once my primary complaint had been treated and wasn't an issue anymore, she brought it up to me. I was ok with being checked out for it, and as it turned out I do have it. It doesn't make that much of a difference to me because it wasn't something that actually had an impact on my life anymore. If I had never met the friends I did at 13 and never made any changes and never had a life then I probably would see it very differently. Basically, not knowing that I had AS way back then is what helped me be able to work as hard and relentlessly as I did to make the changes I needed to. If I had known I had a medical condition that made it hard or impossible for me to act normal, then I wouldn't have ever tried or if I tried I would have given up after the first few failures and now be living in some homeless shelter since my mother died and I had no skills or idea of how to survive.

So I wasn't influenced by anything about AS except the AS itself, which I was completely unaware of. I didn't know it was an actual disorder, I thought I was just weird. It's a lot easier to push yourself when you don't know the reason why you will probably fail.

If I seem "NT" to you, thats probably because NTs are mainly who I've been around. How exactly do I seem NT to you? Is it because I'm not a victim of society, or is it because I see AS as the medical condition that it is, or is it because I have common sense and believe that people should try their best to take care of themselves and only when they really can't do it themselves that they should rely on others to take care of them? What is it about me that seems NT to you?

As for homosexuality, it shouldn't have ever been considered a disorder to begin with. It was in there because it was considered to be deviant and luckily thought has changed on that. AS isn't like homosexuality because I've yet to meet someone who has trouble showering or processing things or has any physical limitations from being gay. It's two very different things. I don't really think you will ever hear a mother say "I've got a homosexual son. He's 23 and I take care of him. He can't use the toilet and I have to help him take a bath and his Dad shaves him. We can understand what he's trying to say, but a lot of people can't. Our insurance won't pay for his treatments and I don't know whats going to happen to him when we die, he's an only child and has no siblings. All those homosexual group homes are full and the good private ones are so expensive that the money we leave wouldn't ever cover it" You also won't hear "I had a meltdown earlier, the stress was too much. I'm sorry, but my homosexuality causes that". Nobody has ever said "I'm gay and can't wear scratchy clothing or socks with a seam in them. It just bothers me so much I can't focus on anything else that's going on. Being gay causes sensory issues like that which vary from person to person".

 

[Jaywalker]

Maybe growing up and then living most of my life not being aware that I had AS and learning to adapt and function in the world without someone telling me that I shouldn't be able to do that is one reason I don't think like a lot of adult aspies.

That certainly isn't a compelling argument. I wasn't diagnosed until age 41, and have managed, but I've never had the opportunity to perform at my full potential. It certainly wasn't for lack of effort or trying to find such an opportunity. I'm sure you can understand why I would resent someone who clearly doesn't understand the first thing about what AS has been like for me implying that my problems are caused by me not trying hard enough or not trying to fake being an NT, and further resent that person claiming my greatest strengths are a disease to be cured. Such a person doesn't get it.

It's one thing to be able to survive in an NT world. It is something else entirely to be able to convincingly pass as an NT. The latter is essentially impossible for most aspies. It's not something that can be grown out of.

 

[OliveOilMom]

That certainly isn't a compelling argument. I wasn't diagnosed until age 41, and have managed, but I've never had the opportunity to perform at my full potential. It certainly wasn't for lack of effort or trying to find such an opportunity. I'm sure you can understand why I would resent someone who clearly doesn't understand the first thing about what AS has been like for me implying that my problems are caused by me not trying hard enough or not trying to fake being an NT, and further resent that person claiming my greatest strengths are a disease to be cured. Such a person doesn't get it.

It's one thing to be able to survive in an NT world. It is something else entirely to be able to convincingly pass as an NT. The latter is essentially impossible for most aspies. It's not something that can be grown out of.

Thats not what I said nor implied. You are free however to take what I say however you wish to. I certainly didn't grow out of anything, I found ways that I changed how I came across. I didn't say I don't still have trouble with my AS. I didn't say I don't have symptoms. I said I changed how I act around people.

I think the most telling thing you have said to me at all is "I resent..."

Just because you resent what I did, what I think, what others did and what others think doesn't mean that we didn't do it and that we aren't able to go in public without people knowing something is up with us. Just because you may say it's essentially impossible for most aspies to pass as NT doesn't mean you are correct. What was it you said? Oh yeah, that cute little sound byte - The plural of antecdote is not data. I know many who can convincingly pass as NT. I would say that overall though, almost all aspies can improve even if it's a very tiny amount if they do try and have the help and information to do so. That is of course my opinion, not scientific data.

I have never said that all you have to do is pull yourself up by your bootstraps and try and then the world will be sweetness and light. I said that everybody can improve even if it's just slightly. Whether or not you have actually tried, I don't know. It's not my business whether or not you have tried, whether or not you want to try, or whether or not you think you should have to try or whether or not you are able to succeed if you did try. What I have said was that I tried and had help and worked very hard to get to where I am now. I never said I don't have symptoms still. Just because I'm an aspie doesn't make me a victim of either AS or of society.

Either way, I've already decided what I'm going to personally do about education and I'm going to hopefully have it up and running by April. After seeing the overall tone here I'm not sure how many people here might be helpful for my idea, but I'm going to talk to some. Maybe this will work out well. I certainly hope so. It will take a little work and some time, but I think we can get it done.

 

[Tia Maria]

" (Incidentally, I've had a supervisor tell me I was his most valuable worker and fire me in the same breath. I seriously doubt that's a unique experience among aspies.)
"

By 'fired' were you laid off? During a large lay off or downsizing, what were the circumstances?

What was the "reason" you were let go? (If you can & wish to share.)

You are spot on that networking is invaluable to finding out about new opportunities & also getting an interview. Many NTs cannot or do not 'network' well, to their own detriment. Networking though is not about being popular or being friends, it is a skill set that can be worked on & takes much time & effort.

Having once had an "opportunity" of a good job, even when lost, provides a jump off point to a new job. As uncomfortable as it may be, people make the effort to cultivate references. For instance, your former supervisor who claimed you were his most valuable worker - was that a lie to make you feel better? If not, & it was indeed true, then you ask him to serve as a reference for you for new jobs. What about any former co-workers? You did not have to be friends or even friendly with them. Just cordial & civil, because if you did a great job someone you worked with would be willing to also serve as a reference for you. i.e.; vouch for your competency, reliability & abilities.

Many NTs truly lack these skills as well. But all this can be learned & mastered well enough to at least be able to find work equivalent with one's job level.

It's not easy. But it can be done. It's HARD WORK. The alternative of blaming the US economic system doesn't meet merit for me - although I sympathize with your feelings.

Also with interviewing skills. Many NTs stink at interviewing, As an Aspie, you would need to identify what your weaknesses are etc.. & prepare, prepare, prepare. Practice in advance etc... If for some reason Aspergers actually prevents you entirely from being able to minimally perform on an interview - even with massive preparation & practice - then are you expecting an employer to overlook other equally qualified candidates who have completed the interview process in favor of you because you 'have Aspergers' ... & possibly hire you based on your word alone that you are superior & can the job better than all the other candidates but are not given fair opportunities because you lack social skills due to Aspergers?

The "you" above means a person in general (not you, Jaywalker). I am also NOT trying to dismiss your very valid feelings, BUT that in effect is what it sounds like. Wanting special dispensation, yet purporting to be 'superior'. How does that compute unless under some twisted form of logic?

In addition, doing some job at any business regardless of what it is - requires competency & effectiveness. Being effective matters & is not about being socially graceful or well liked ... someone needs to be able to execute. If someone cannot manage to figure out how to come up with some references, simply vouching for their competence, cannot learn & execute on what is needed to effectively interview (yes, it's stressful, & it's actually perfectly okay to have quirks) how can it just be assumed that they can or will fulfill a job responsibility?

Navigating "politics" is a VERY difficult & many (probably most) NTs don't master or do it well either. No one who doesn't manage people & groups of people well will find themselves as a CEO of a major corp. but that's a number of people relatively speaking, & frankly that 'skill' is needed to manage & run such a large organization. Lacking that skill doesn't prevent someone from being the CEO of a business they have conceived & gotten off the ground themselves, nor will it prevent someone from just getting hired.

I really think what you are considering "social skills" - almost equating it to a popularity contest, is actually something more intangible. Sure having natural or innate social graces is a great trait. But it won't compensate for, or overcome incompetence. Social skills though can be learned to an adequate degree & that requires determination & effort.

Something that is more valued by most employers, especially for 'higher level' jobs, & is actually equally necessary as being able to perform any given task or responsibility, is high emotional intelligence, maturity & good judgment. Those are VERY important qualities & intangibles that matter. They cannot be mimicked; although one can work on improving themselves in those areas.

I have no idea how those traits correlate or not to Aspergers, but they are not the same thing as having or lacking simple social skills.

As you know, there is intellectual intelligence, & emotional intelligence. In a civilized & advanced society, many believe that emotional intelligence is more important & more valuable than straight IQ. With the advent of better & faster computers & nano technology, simple computing type brainpower becomes more & more replaceable.

I do not doubt the difficulties you have faced & I genuinely sympathize. But I have seen too many qualified competent people overcome great hardships so I know it can be done.

Hiring someone is a huge commitment. The onus lies on the job seeker to be personally responsible & do what it takes if they want to succeed. No one is entitled to anything in this world. And some people do have things harder than others. That is just life. Nature. One person is born tall, another short. We have to each try our individual best to make the most of our own talents, & improve where we can.

We will have to agree to disagree on some points. But I sincerely wish you much luck & success in all you do Jaywalker. And I will personally try to help someone based on the things you have shared here.

 

[Tia Maria]

It's one thing to be able to survive in an NT world. It is something else entirely to be able to convincingly pass as an NT. The latter is essentially impossible for most aspies. It's not something that can be grown out of.

Just an FYI that I do not think that an aspie has to NOT be themselves, or should try to pass for being an NT etc... But as you said, to survive .. to better manage life in a world that may be stressful for you - well life is stressful for most people!! - & hard for you (again life is hard & hard work for I think everyone, but granted you may face some extra difficulties) ... but there are some skills that can be learned ... NOT to become NT or pass as NT or not be yourself, but to manage getting from point A to point B. And tasks that can be mastered. Minimize the stress, but accomplish something that is necessary. For instance, some here make a big deal about small talk. Some NTs are 'chatter bugs', just as many are not. It is NOT something to worry about or change yourself into something else. Just learn like rote I'll do this here, & that there, the end. And in many cases someone never needs to make any small talk whatsoever. Things like that can make a big difference in learning how to manage .... yet still BE exactly who someone is ...

Like when people worry about stimming. There are a few situations that a person would want to work on controlling that - probably short periods. The rest of the time, so what? It relieves stress, so who cares? Stim away. I have only read Aspies stressing over it, never an NT complaining or worrying about an Aspie's stims. (nervous tics?) Those are quirks that do not matter. But being competent DOES matter.

Tapping fingers, buy a fidget gadget etc... There are work arounds & no need to stress over these things. I still believe a Sheldon or Spock WOULD be hired & successful. As a matter of fact, since joining here I am realizing that one of my cousins' sons is very possibly an Aspie. He, like many of my other cousins' kids, is an engineer. They are all gainfully employed & doing well. Only one would have any Aspie traits whatsoever. The other kids all notice his quirks & 'strangeness' including lack of socialbility & non smiling! He is getting married in June & has an excellent job. His fiancee I am now realizing must also be Aspie to some degree. She is also employed with a good job. He is a good son & a very good brother to his sisters by the way. They are both intelligent. But their quirks & lack of social abilities did not hold them back. Why do some others blame society for the fact that they think they are not employed to match their potential &/or intelligence?

Went off on a tangent & thinking out loud. Anyway, I still hope for the best for everyone out there ....

 

[Tia Maria]

I've had many, many interviews. I just don't interview well. Although I've only recently been diagnosed with AS, I don't see any amount of coping methods changing that. I don't interview well, and the probability of finding work appropriate to my skill set and education is very slim. I lack the social skills to win the opportunity.

Jaywalker, that may be true ... Twenty-five is a lot of different jobs in 41 years or so. You are a hard worker & not afraid to work! Is it hard for you to keep & maintain a job?

Have you thought about getting a temp job in your suited field through a temp agency? These can be good jobs & last up to two years. If someone is working out well, often times a company will hire them permanently during or at the end of their contract. If they have not budgeted for a permanent hire they will often bring that person back for a new contract after a short break. (By US law certain temp positions cannot exceed two years.)

The reason 'knowing someone' works so well is like with references. Knowing someone means that person's opinion is already validated & means a lot to whoever is hiring, & now that person is vouching for someone else. That removes a lot of the risk & uncertainty which accompanies hiring a brand new person, an untested stranger really. It gives the person hiring them a level of built in confidence, so of course they are going to feel more comfortable that they can give that person a chance. Once on board working at a business though, the value of that initial glowing reference soon dissipates & the company wants to see their new employee living up to the high expectations that were placed on them. Getting a 'leg up' through knowing someone means those involved think highly of a person, & a lot of expectations will be placed on them. If they don't meet them, they will not be given any favoritism.

Sorry to continue posting & chiming in here ... I just feel badly that you feel this way.