Ideas for educating the public about AS

[Jaywalker]

Oh yeah, that cute little sound byte - The plural of antecdote is not data.

It's not a "cute little sound byte." It's a succinct explanation of why one's personal observations are useless for drawing valid conclusions.

 

[Jaywalker]

By 'fired' were you laid off? During a large lay off or downsizing, what were the circumstances?

What was the "reason" you were let go? (If you can & wish to share.)
…
[Y]our former supervisor who claimed you were his most valuable worker - was that a lie to make you feel better?

I was fired over office politics. My supervisor didn't care about office politics and would have preferred I stayed. The decision came from his boss.

The alternative of blaming the US economic system doesn't meet merit for me

I didn't blame the US economic system. I said that most of the struggles aspies have with contributing to society lie with the perceptions of society, not with aspies themselves. One of the ways society's perception problems manifests is that aspies are not properly valued in the labor market based on the value they can add. The labor market is not the root problem.

I realize the difference between that and blaming the labor market is subtle, but it's important. It's the difference between blaming a death on lung cancer or 50 years of smoking three packs of cigarettes each day. The smoking is the underlying cause.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

"If given the opportunity" is a HUGE if. Aspies are at a huge disadvantage during the interview process.



In real life it would be extremely unlikely that either would make it past the interview process, if they got that far, at least in present day USA. Networking is key to obtaining employment, and successfully navigating office politics is usually key to keeping them. Social skills are disproportionately valued, because many people are uncomfortable working around socially awkward people. It comes back to society not being able to accurately measure a person's potential value.

There are lots of highly intelligent aspies who would love to find work appropriate to their intellectual ability and skill set. Being qualified isn't enough to get a job.

(Incidentally, I've had a supervisor tell me I was his most valuable worker and fire me in the same breath. I seriously doubt that's a unique experience among aspies.)



That the unemployment rate for aspies is an order of magnitude higher than for the general workforce strongly supports my point and severely undermines the supposition that aspies are fairly valued by the labor market.

"Although research on the topic is limited, most experts agree the unemployment rate for people with Asperger's is as high as 85 percent, according to the Autism Support Network."

Jaywalker is exactly right about this, IMHO. It's not the aspie who has to be fixed, it's the interview process, and especially the people who are hiring without knowing exactly what they want. Just because an employer has a job "description" doesn't mean they understand what's been put on it--as SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) well knows. The interview process is very heavily skewed toward social interaction, which is lethal when what you're competing with is your portfolio. I wandered over to Wrong Planet and found a marvelous summary of this on a thread. Sheldon Cooper would never make it past the telephone interview screen.

FWIW, I am certified in HR.

 

[Slithytoves]

It's pretty interesting though, how instead of putting any effort into changing your situation you put it into arguments as to why you can't or shouldn't have to make changes. Why should everybody else make changes for us and we shouldn't ever make any for them?

Don't worry, we will handle it. You sit back and wait to just get the good things from other's efforts.

These comments were unnecessary.

OliveOilMom, I think there's a lot of good and truth in what you say, in this thread and elsewhere on the forums. I definitely applaud your desire to change the public perception of Asperger's/Autism. Having studied your posts since your joining AC last Friday, I'm going to make a well-intentioned suggestion. I hope you will see it in that light.

You are a new member here, as I am. As a matter of courtesy, that entails taking some time to get to know the culture. A lot of people who have come here from WrongPlanet left that site because the atmosphere was uncomfortably contentious. Thanks to the wonderful moderating team here and the dedicated efforts of long-time members, this site is an uncommonly peaceful place, with few exceptions. What you may be finding in the disagreements between yourself and some of the natives at AC is the result of your very assertive personal style. I have no problem with assertive people; I'm one myself. But when I come into a new environment, I am careful to modulate my assertive nature and establish a good rapport before I begin expressing strong opinions. You wrote eloquently about observations and adaptations you've made to get along better in an NT world, so you're obviously capable of being very perceptive and acting on what you glean from the environment around you. You might want to do that here as well. I think you would find your comments better received if you did so. As I said, there's a lot of good and truth in what you say. How you say it seems to be the problem, and also perhaps not always knowing when it may be better to simply withdraw from an interaction, rather than allowing yourself to reach a point where you make unfriendly comments like the ones I highlighted above. It doesn't matter if you feel you're being provoked. Having the grace to hold your tongue under fire is a virtue.

I have no need to spend my free time writing notes like this to strangers, so I'd like you to take me at my word that my purpose now is to help you assimilate well here. Since you were dissatisfied with your more recent experience on WP, I would hate to see you not find a better experience at the other major Asperger's forum.

 

[SignOfLazarus]

RE:education-
I am actually disabled and have been on SSDI for some time. I think that it's common to assume that because someone receives benefits or is on disability, that they don't have a full time job, etc... that they don't have any contribution. Actually, it probably depends on what we might consider a contribution as well.
I have been on SSDI and continue to be because I am not able to support myself fully with gainful employment and my disability hampers that.
But, since disability I have repeatedly attempted to go back to school and work again.

Throughout that I have done things such as peer support and worked on research projects. I have worked with both adults and children who identify as various types of disabled, developmentally and otherwise.

Education-wise, I can't do anything big right now but I do what I can by making my facebook as public as I feel comfortable and being very vocal and transparent about the fact that I am autistic. I actually also tend to make some pretty off-color and probably inappropriate-for-this-site jokes to that end with a couple friends now and then as well. Some people probably would absolutely not approve of that. And that is understandable. However, I have seen that really open up oppurtunities for discussion with people who might otherwise feel really uncomfortable talking about autism and ASDs in general- because it's something we aren't supposed to talk about. And like, we don't have sex or tell dirty jokes or have a sense of humor or drink or swear or whatever, right? [Actually some people really seem to think that. Or it just doesn't occur to people who aren't familiar with autism that people on the spectrum are three dimensional so might do any of those things. Having a conversation about it is helpful.]



Also, Autistic Hoya [Lydia Brown] is doing an autistic pride project for April which is pretty neat if anyone wanted to talk to her about that or any ideas? You can check her out on facebook- I think Autistic Hoya Facebook page would be the better route to go with that. You could check out Autism Women's Network too if you are into that sort of thing.

 

[Uhura]

Aspies aren't normal, but that's okay. That's our strength. We also don't need to be portrayed in pop culture as normal people who just happen to have AS. That's not a realistic portrayal. We need to educate society about the value we can add as aspies.

I'm fine being an Aspie and not normal. It has it's challenges but I remind myself that NTs have them too, just different.

Sorry I couldn't get the quote right but give the credit for the first two lines to Jaywalker.

 

[OliveOilMom]

RE:education-
I am actually disabled and have been on SSDI for some time. I think that it's common to assume that because someone receives benefits or is on disability, that they don't have a full time job, etc... that they don't have any contribution. Actually, it probably depends on what we might consider a contribution as well.
I have been on SSDI and continue to be because I am not able to support myself fully with gainful employment and my disability hampers that.
But, since disability I have repeatedly attempted to go back to school and work again.

Throughout that I have done things such as peer support and worked on research projects. I have worked with both adults and children who identify as various types of disabled, developmentally and otherwise.

Education-wise, I can't do anything big right now but I do what I can by making my facebook as public as I feel comfortable and being very vocal and transparent about the fact that I am autistic. I actually also tend to make some pretty off-color and probably inappropriate-for-this-site jokes to that end with a couple friends now and then as well. Some people probably would absolutely not approve of that. And that is understandable. However, I have seen that really open up oppurtunities for discussion with people who might otherwise feel really uncomfortable talking about autism and ASDs in general- because it's something we aren't supposed to talk about. And like, we don't have sex or tell dirty jokes or have a sense of humor or drink or swear or whatever, right? [Actually some people really seem to think that. Or it just doesn't occur to people who aren't familiar with autism that people on the spectrum are three dimensional so might do any of those things. Having a conversation about it is helpful.]



Also, Autistic Hoya [Lydia Brown] is doing an autistic pride project for April which is pretty neat if anyone wanted to talk to her about that or any ideas? You can check her out on facebook- I think Autistic Hoya Facebook page would be the better route to go with that. You could check out Autism Women's Network too if you are into that sort of thing.

Hey there! Nice to see you here!

I'm going to be checking out all those things you mentioned, and I'm also going to put up my one FB page about this. I'm not trying to be insulting by excluding people on SSI etc, or those who live with their parents or those who aren't officially diagnosed. I'm trying to find those who fit into some particular parameters for so the whole thing will project a particular image.

Alex is pretty well known and successful in the autistic community but I doubt most people outside of it would know who he is, so I'm thinking about trying to talk him into letting me profile him. I'm also going to try to talk Fnord into it, but I really doubt he would do it, he's very private. I could do myself even though I don't work outside the home, but I have in the past and if I wanted to again I could, I'm a housewife by choice and I live with my husband and kids. Profiling myself would seem like bragging though. I may just post that the page was put together by me and that I have AS. Knowledge about it has been on a need to know basis ever since I was diagnosed, but it doesn't hurt anything for other folks to know. I mainly don't think about it when I'm not posting about it or dealing with a symptom or issue.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

It's important to understand that trying to fix unemployment by "fixing" the unemployed makes as much sense as trying to fix an aspie to make them allistic. I've been unemployed, fully employed, and worked in HR as well as in outplacement.

Both problems are social in nature and cannot be exclusively assigned to the more vulnerable party. That's exactly how the playing field is tilted. The algorithm to measure return on investment for an employee does not necessarily favor the allistic until social "requirements" are added. And those requirements aren't actually requirements. They're "feel-good" stuff. What employers unfairly rate aspies on is the social aspect, and as Rudy Simone has written extensively, it's your portfolio and your work that will sell you, not the social stuff.

But it's the social stuff that keeps you employed.

 

[OliveOilMom]

Aspies aren't normal, but that's okay. That's our strength. We also don't need to be portrayed in pop culture as normal people who just happen to have AS. That's not a realistic portrayal. We need to educate society about the value we can add as aspies.

I'm fine being an Aspie and not normal. It has it's challenges but I remind myself that NTs have them too, just different.

Sorry I couldn't get the quote right but give the credit for the first two lines to Jaywalker.

But there are many who are normal and just happen to have AS. Also, normal is a pretty broad and vague term. More things than you think are classified as normal. Normal isn't just a very narrowly defined set of actions, looks, mannerisms etc. Many NT's aren't normal and many are. Many aspies aren't normal and many are. Sometimes it's other issues besides AS that make aspies not seem normal etc. We all have quirks and eccentricities and it's very possible to work them into your everyday life and how you come across without shining a glaring spotlight on them. It's things we do and say that make us seem not normal. Those are the things I suggest changing. When I say changing, I don't mean changing the urge to do them, I mean suppressing the urge to do them. I'll compare it to an itch. If you were sitting on a dais somewhere with a large audience in front of you watching your every move and your shoulder started to itch you could suppress the urge to scratch it. You may be able to suppress it the whole time and still be able to concentrate on the speaker, or you may have to eventually give in and scratch it a little or quickly rub it. On the other hand you may need to get up and go into the bathroom to scratch it for two or three minutes. It all depends on what kind of itch it is, how often you get it, how sensitive you are to itching, your level of willpower, etc.

When you refuse to scratch the itch you don't stop itching, you just force yourself to act in a different way than you feel compelled to or what feels natural to do. It's the same way when you change how you come across to others. You don't stop feeling the urge to do things differently, you don't suddenly want to do them differently, you just don't let yourself do them.

I'm fine with being how I am too, and there are a lot of things about me that aren't normal, just like there are about people here and about NT's. I've simply learned how to work around my issues, that's the only thing I'm suggesting that people learn.

I also think that we do need to show the public that there are many of us who are independent, who are contributing to society, who are mature and responsible and have common sense. There are so many portrayals of us as handicapped or unable to work or unable to care for ourselves etc, that we need to have something out there to counter it and at least try and bring about a balance.

 

[Tia Maria]

Jaywalker is exactly right about this, IMHO. It's not the aspie who has to be fixed, it's the interview process, and especially the people who are hiring without knowing exactly what they want. Just because an employer has a job "description" doesn't mean they understand what's been put on it--as SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management) well knows. The interview process is very heavily skewed toward social interaction, which is lethal when what you're competing with is your portfolio. I wandered over to Wrong Planet and found a marvelous summary of this on a thread. Sheldon Cooper would never make it past the telephone interview screen.

FWIW, I am certified in HR.

No offense AG4H & for the record I like you a lot & value your opinions. With that said though, you are certified in HR? Do you actually work for a large corporation, or for even say a small engineering firm (there are many such fabulous small firms)? Not a university or some academia bubble, but in the real world of production & commerce? And I promise that is NOT meant to be offensive but just how those outside of academia honestly view it.

Yes, phone screening is important & used every day. BUT if someone has a disability - such as being MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED & thus confirmed, not self diagnosed - that makes their verbal interaction in a phone interview really not representative of their potential, they need to make that very clear so that if their resume & experience & references (vouching for their competence & capabilities) are otherwise supposedly equal to all the other candidates, they be given a chance to video conference interview or in person interview, with at least the HR person. AND if said candidate is so intelligent, maybe they should investigate to find the hiring person & get their resume directly to them, skipping right over the HR screener. Although it is of course poo poo'd, the fact is that every manager who needs to fill an opening with a good person WILL take a look at that resume if it hits their desk & if it is indeed strong, they will ask HR to screen them or just bring them in. (At very high levels they may not bother BUT frankly, someone who has weak or poor communication skills would never be ale to perform any of the responsibilities required at that level anyway.)

After that, if a person cannot work on their skill set to at least semi-competently get through an interview, they are either NOT the strongest candidate but wish to be hired anyway under some disability preference program, or under their own misconception or grandiose belief system that they are special & superior to all the other candidates they are competing against. If someone's communication - are you calling them social skills? - are that weak, that poor, how would they actually be able to competently perform the subject job? For the record too, it is only HR people who ask all those ridiculous questions. NOT the people who do anything within the organization (whether large or small) to actually keep it running & making money in its given business or field. The higher up you go in fact the interviewee may hardly get asked anything at all outside of HR.

Jaywalker lost a job due to internal politics. Well, who hasn't? & that's the truth. No offense, but yes, get over it. My husband in his career has had to let go many people who he didn't want to ... & others that just weren't up to the task. Of the latter folks, they surely disagreed & believed they were fantastic & not getting their just due. That would be only part of their problem. The fact that they saw themselves as being better & more competent & capable than the reality was not insignificant. But that kind of person NEVER "gets" it. Oh, & I hardly know anyone at all - my own family included - who hasn't been on the painful receiving end of losing a beloved job. It's very hard. And it hurts. But one has to let go & move on.

Back to JW's plight, factor in that over the last 6-7 years the job market has been very lackluster & thus extremely competitive. I empathize greatly, & do not blame him for his current situation. If he needs some sort of accommodation to skip phone interviewing (which yes, typically is the first screening step, but it doesn't have to be) fine. But from there, like it or not, he better work on improving his interview skills to a degree ... because the idea that someone cannot be anything but completely incompetent during any kind of interview process but will somehow more than competently perform at the job they needed to interview for does not add up in the real world. If someone is capable ONLY of sitting at a desk & working through some numbers or code, & NOT exercising judgement or dealing with people & so on, then they better be OUTSTANDING at the task because if they merely do the task equal to others who have many more competencies to also bring to the table, they are not in fact the best candidate for the job.

And the other idea, presented above that in a job market informed with perfect data, all the Aspies would be rising to the top & getting their dream job on the first interview because of their superior intellect & skills, whereas in the current world they are overlooked because of their lack of social skills ... sorry, I am NOT seeing it.

Separately, today's higher education system (& the ease to borrowing that has caused tuition to skyrocket way beyond inflation & even the value of most degrees) is a complete farce. That's a whole other discussion & not one I plan on having on AC.

 

[AdamR]

It's things we do and say that make us seem not normal. Those are the things I suggest changing. When I say changing, I don't mean changing the urge to do them, I mean suppressing the urge to do them.

When you refuse to scratch the itch you don't stop itching, you just force yourself to act in a different way than you feel compelled to or what feels natural to do. It's the same way when you change how you come across to others. You don't stop feeling the urge to do things differently, you don't suddenly want to do them differently, you just don't let yourself do them.

As an NT with an Aspie partner, I find this post distressing. Your answer to someone whose point was that they believe their Aspie differences are a strength is a treatise on suppressing traits?

It’s one thing to encourage other Aspies to harness their gifts to their advantage. It’s entirely another to suggest they should “force themselves” to curb their quirks and “not let” themselves do what comes naturally. Especially in a response to someone who is telling you they like the way they are.

You say that Aspies need to show the public how independent and productive they can be, but it seems you believe the way they should do this is by acting more like NTs. How does that do anything to create better awareness and acceptance of people with Asperger’s? By your words, the image you appear to want to project is one of success by mimicry, not by being who you are. In my opinion, that’s as bad as the message that Aspies are all disabled, mechanical introverts, and I assure you it would teach me and other NTs very little at all. Indeed, it would only convince NTs that Aspies can't be successful while acting like Aspies, further encouraging the ableist mindset that gets you branded "abnormal" by us to begin with.

I am a homosexual in my late fifties, and in my lifetime, many a well-meaning advisor told gays and lesbians that the way to acceptance was to suppress any hallmark characteristics to appear more like everyone else. You have no idea how damaging that was to untold numbers of people, especially to our youngest. It delayed our progress instead of advancing it, by obscuring our issues and killing our self-esteem. The same damage was done by people who told light-skinned blacks that they should do their best to "pass" rather than embrace their blackness.

In the interest of courtesy and respect, please do some reading between your postings. Get to know your fellow members and their stories before you start prescribing behaviour. Some of the most professionally and socially successful Aspies on these forums have suffered greatly for the weight of the masks they’ve had to wear. It's been reflected in their posts that their dearest wish would be for others of their kind not to have to stifle and pretend. Many others here aren’t capable of putting on a mask like it’s a frock, and their efforts at the urging of insensitive others have only caused more stress.

You ask for ideas about educating the public: The best educators are learners first, and not only about themselves.

 

[Tia Maria]

Not that it matters to anyone, but I am not reading any comments beyond AspieGirl4Hire's first one above which I just replied to & am signing off this discussion for good. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. In this world, & really all worlds going back to prehistoric man, the proof is in the pudding. Results (& personal happiness) are all that really matter in the end. If how someone thinks, & what they're doing, is successfully working for them, they should carry on. Everyone is free to make their own decisions & follow their own path. Good luck folks.

 

[SignOfLazarus]

Hey there! Nice to see you here!

I'm going to be checking out all those things you mentioned, and I'm also going to put up my one FB page about this. I'm not trying to be insulting by excluding people on SSI etc, or those who live with their parents or those who aren't officially diagnosed. I'm trying to find those who fit into some particular parameters for so the whole thing will project a particular image.

I don't believe you are trying to be insulting, no. I understand that you are trying to find people who fit into particular parameters and there is a reasoning behind that. There is a difficulty in that though- diagnosis lies on the fact that issues contribute to noticeable difficulty in functioning. So if those difficulties in functioning aren't there, there is no reason for a diagnosis.

I have an official diagnosis, but to be clear, it wasn't made until after I went on disability- I am officially disabled for other reasons. Some of the things I have done are things that NTs would love to be a part of and not everyone can. I'm 6 courses shy of a bachelor's with a major in psych and minors in bio and art therapy. What may ultimately keep me from that in the long run is finances, not disability- I have gotten back up enough times that I know that motivation or ability eventually will not be an issue but money will.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are ALL sorts of individuals with differing profiles of abilities in the autistic community. I do agree that there tends to be this "pity profile" lean often. But in my opinion what you seem to be aiming toward is the polar opposite- which isn't helpful either. Neither are representative of the community because the phrase "you know one autistic you know one autistic" is true even though it is often parroted. If you want to make a project that serves to educate you need to be really really careful about how you are presenting such a group of individuals- if you only present individuals who are so high functioning all the time that they need no supports and their autism never has any affect on their life... why are they diagnosed? Probably not for reasons that will be shared in your project. So that isn't really serving the autistic community as a whole, it's really just saying "don't pity us". But most of us say that- a lot.

I'd definitely encourage you to check out autistichoya.com. She is going to law school- she actually just got accepted [YAY!!!!!]. But that doesn't mean she is pretending she isn't on the spectrum or she shouldn't fight for accessibility or that there are no issues that come along with navigating the world when one is autistic. ON the contrary- part of her general mission in life is to advocate for disability rights- her own, and others' and to teach others to advocate for themselves.

It's just not black and white: high functioning, low functioning, contributing or not. When there are projects that present a group that is not representative of the community I get uncomfortable, and it seems like you do too- which may be the motivation for this project and that is completely understandable. Maybe there is someway you can do the project how you like, but still find a way to accurately represent the community.
The site/blog I mention also usually has a lot of activity and information as links, references. [it's not the facebook page]. Good luck on your project.

 

[Jaywalker]

Yes, phone screening is important & used every day. BUT if someone has a disability - such as being MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED & thus confirmed, not self diagnosed - that makes their verbal interaction in a phone interview really not representative of their potential, they need to make that very clear so that if their resume & experience & references (vouching for their competence & capabilities) are otherwise supposedly equal to all the other candidates, they be given a chance to video conference interview or in person interview, with at least the HR person. AND if said candidate is so intelligent, maybe they should investigate to find the hiring person & get their resume directly to them, skipping right over the HR screener. Although it is of course poo poo'd, the fact is that every manager who needs to fill an opening with a good person WILL take a look at that resume if it hits their desk & if it is indeed strong, they will ask HR to screen them or just bring them in. (At very high levels they may not bother BUT frankly, someone who has weak or poor communication skills would never be ale to perform any of the responsibilities required at that level anyway.)

If an aspie doesn't perform well in a phone interview, a video conference or in-person interview is not likely to provide an environment they will be more comfortable and less awkward. We often have significant problems "getting out foot in the door." Further, many of us lack the ability to market ourselves effectively. These two things (and probably others) combine to ensure that a strong candidate may lack a strong resume. Many, if not most of us, are also not strong networkers, so finding the person who does the actual hiring falls outside our skill set.

After that, if a person cannot work on their skill set to at least semi-competently get through an interview, they are either NOT the strongest candidate but wish to be hired anyway under some disability preference program, or under their own misconception or grandiose belief system that they are special & superior to all the other candidates they are competing against. If someone's communication - are you calling them social skills? - are that weak, that poor, how would they actually be able to competently perform the subject job? For the record too, it is only HR people who ask all those ridiculous questions. NOT the people who do anything within the organization (whether large or small) to actually keep it running & making money in its given business or field. The higher up you go in fact the interviewee may hardly get asked anything at all outside of HR.

You provide a great example of how society, and therefore the labor market, undervalues aspies. Social skills are overrated when it comes to actual job performance for many jobs. Some industries are just now beginning to recognize that introverts, in general, have been undervalued and underutilized. For many/most situations, written communications can work just as well as oral communications.

Jaywalker lost a job due to internal politics. Well, who hasn't? & that's the truth. No offense, but yes, get over it.

I've lost several jobs due to my aspergers. In all but one, which was in sales, my actual job performance was well above average. I just gave the one example because it clearly illustrated how there are many other factors beyond qualifications and job performance, other factors that should be irrelevant but are not, that play into getting and keeping a job. Such factors place aspies at a severe disadvantage compared to similar qualified NTs, particularly similarly qualified extroverted NTs.

Back to JW's plight, factor in that over the last 6-7 years the job market has been very lackluster & thus extremely competitive.

I don't recall the US workforce at large reaching anywhere near 85 percent unemployment rate. As long as the unemployment rate of aspies is that much higher than the overall US unemployment rate, the claim that aspies are not undervalued in the labor market is wholly indefensible.

he better work on improving his interview skills to a degree ... because the idea that someone cannot be anything but completely incompetent during any kind of interview process but will somehow more than competently perform at the job they needed to interview for does not add up in the real world.

Except for jobs like sales and similar, where interviewing is essentially the job, that's not true. The value placed on social skills by the labor market far exceeds the value social skills play in actual job performance. I, along with many other aspies, can effectively communicate. That's only a small subset of the skills needed to interview well.

If someone is capable ONLY of sitting at a desk & working through some numbers or code, & NOT exercising judgement or dealing with people & so on, then they better be OUTSTANDING at the task because if they merely do the task equal to others who have many more competencies to also bring to the table, they are not in fact the best candidate for the job.

By that logic, HR should be asking candidates about batting averages, in the interest of the company softball team's performance.

And the other idea, presented above that in a job market informed with perfect data, all the Aspies would be rising to the top & getting their dream job on the first interview because of their superior intellect & skills, whereas in the current world they are overlooked because of their lack of social skills ... sorry, I am NOT seeing it.

That's a a nice straw man you've built up there. That's not an accurate representation of what people have been saying. What we are saying is that the unemployment rate for aspies would not be an order of magnitude higher than the general workforce. Until you can address that disparity, your argument is unsupported rhetoric. You've applied circular logic, nothing more.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

No offense AG4H & for the record I like you a lot & value your opinions. With that said though, you are certified in HR? Do you actually work for a large corporation, or for even say a small engineering firm (there are many such fabulous small firms)? Not a university or some academia bubble, but in the real world of production & commerce? And I promise that is NOT meant to be offensive but just how those outside of academia honestly view it.

Yes, phone screening is important & used every day. BUT if someone has a disability - such as being MEDICALLY DIAGNOSED & thus confirmed, not self diagnosed - that makes their verbal interaction in a phone interview really not representative of their potential, they need to make that very clear so that if their resume & experience & references (vouching for their competence & capabilities) are otherwise supposedly equal to all the other candidates, they be given a chance to video conference interview or in person interview, with at least the HR person. AND if said candidate is so intelligent, maybe they should investigate to find the hiring person & get their resume directly to them, skipping right over the HR screener. Although it is of course poo poo'd, the fact is that every manager who needs to fill an opening with a good person WILL take a look at that resume if it hits their desk & if it is indeed strong, they will ask HR to screen them or just bring them in. (At very high levels they may not bother BUT frankly, someone who has weak or poor communication skills would never be ale to perform any of the responsibilities required at that level anyway.)

After that, if a person cannot work on their skill set to at least semi-competently get through an interview, they are either NOT the strongest candidate but wish to be hired anyway under some disability preference program, or under their own misconception or grandiose belief system that they are special & superior to all the other candidates they are competing against. If someone's communication - are you calling them social skills? - are that weak, that poor, how would they actually be able to competently perform the subject job? For the record too, it is only HR people who ask all those ridiculous questions. NOT the people who do anything within the organization (whether large or small) to actually keep it running & making money in its given business or field. The higher up you go in fact the interviewee may hardly get asked anything at all outside of HR.

Jaywalker lost a job due to internal politics. Well, who hasn't? & that's the truth. No offense, but yes, get over it. My husband in his career has had to let go many people who he didn't want to ... & others that just weren't up to the task. Of the latter folks, they surely disagreed & believed they were fantastic & not getting their just due. That would be only part of their problem. The fact that they saw themselves as being better & more competent & capable than the reality was not insignificant. But that kind of person NEVER "gets" it. Oh, & I hardly know anyone at all - my own family included - who hasn't been on the painful receiving end of losing a beloved job. It's very hard. And it hurts. But one has to let go & move on.

Back to JW's plight, factor in that over the last 6-7 years the job market has been very lackluster & thus extremely competitive. I empathize greatly, & do not blame him for his current situation. If he needs some sort of accommodation to skip phone interviewing (which yes, typically is the first screening step, but it doesn't have to be) fine. But from there, like it or not, he better work on improving his interview skills to a degree ... because the idea that someone cannot be anything but completely incompetent during any kind of interview process but will somehow more than competently perform at the job they needed to interview for does not add up in the real world. If someone is capable ONLY of sitting at a desk & working through some numbers or code, & NOT exercising judgement or dealing with people & so on, then they better be OUTSTANDING at the task because if they merely do the task equal to others who have many more competencies to also bring to the table, they are not in fact the best candidate for the job.

And the other idea, presented above that in a job market informed with perfect data, all the Aspies would be rising to the top & getting their dream job on the first interview because of their superior intellect & skills, whereas in the current world they are overlooked because of their lack of social skills ... sorry, I am NOT seeing it.

Separately, today's higher education system (& the ease to borrowing that has caused tuition to skyrocket way beyond inflation & even the value of most degrees) is a complete farce. That's a whole other discussion & not one I plan on having on AC.

Yes, i do work in that capacity.

 

[OliveOilMom]

As an NT with an Aspie partner, I find this post distressing. Your answer to someone whose point was that they believe their Aspie differences are a strength is a treatise on suppressing traits?

It’s one thing to encourage other Aspies to harness their gifts to their advantage. It’s entirely another to suggest they should “force themselves” to curb their quirks and “not let” themselves do what comes naturally. Especially in a response to someone who is telling you they like the way they are.

You say that Aspies need to show the public how independent and productive they can be, but it seems you believe the way they should do this is by acting more like NTs. How does that do anything to create better awareness and acceptance of people with Asperger’s? By your words, the image you appear to want to project is one of success by mimicry, not by being who you are. In my opinion, that’s as bad as the message that Aspies are all disabled, mechanical introverts, and I assure you it would teach me and other NTs very little at all. Indeed, it would only convince NTs that Aspies can't be successful while acting like Aspies, further encouraging the ableist mindset that gets you branded "abnormal" by us to begin with.

I am a homosexual in my late fifties, and in my lifetime, many a well-meaning advisor told gays and lesbians that the way to acceptance was to suppress any hallmark characteristics to appear more like everyone else. You have no idea how damaging that was to untold numbers of people, especially to our youngest. It delayed our progress instead of advancing it, by obscuring our issues and killing our self-esteem. The same damage was done by people who told light-skinned blacks that they should do their best to "pass" rather than embrace their blackness.

In the interest of courtesy and respect, please do some reading between your postings. Get to know your fellow members and their stories before you start prescribing behaviour. Some of the most professionally and socially successful Aspies on these forums have suffered greatly for the weight of the masks they’ve had to wear. It's been reflected in their posts that their dearest wish would be for others of their kind not to have to stifle and pretend. Many others here aren’t capable of putting on a mask like it’s a frock, and their efforts at the urging of insensitive others have only caused more stress.

You ask for ideas about educating the public: The best educators are learners first, and not only about themselves.

AS isn't like homosexuality. AS is a medical condition, homosexuality is a sexual orientation. AS brings with it physical as well as other limitations, being gay doesn't cause limitations.

What I'm talking about forcing yourself to do and not do are things like shaking hands with an interviewer, trying to make eye contact or a reasonable facsimile of it, not rambling during an interview, Not stimming during an interview, etc. I'm talking about limiting yourself to socially acceptable behavior in situations where it matters. That doesn't make you "not be true to yourself" or some sort of "NT world sellout" or something.

I'd also suggest at the start of the interview telling the interviewer something along the lines of "I'm not very good at talking about myself or at talking about doing the job, although I'm pretty good at actually doing the job if I do say so myself, so please cut me a little slack about how I'm coming across when I talk about myself" but still try to do your absolute best during the interview.

Do you really think that everybody in the world who doesn't have AS just naturally fits right in to whatever way they need to be to get and keep a job? They don't. To get a job you want to come across as the person they want to hire. Getting a job isn't the same thing as getting into a relationship. I don't give a rats *ss if the people I work for would like me and choose to be around me or even hire me if they met me away from work. They aren't there to make me feel better about myself or to empower me or to boost my self esteem. They are there to produce a product or a service and I'm there to do the same thing and to get a paycheck.

We need to stop trying to combine emotional issues with financial and work issues.

 

[Jaywalker]

AS isn't like homosexuality. AS is a medical condition, homosexuality is a sexual orientation. AS brings with it physical as well as other limitations, being gay doesn't cause limitations.

Not as long as society accepts the LGBT community without trying to change them, it doesn't. AS is very similar. Aspies aren't broken. The problem lies with society's perceptions of AS.

 

[SignOfLazarus]

...
What I'm talking about forcing yourself to do and not do are things like shaking hands with an interviewer, trying to make eye contact or a reasonable facsimile of it, not rambling during an interview, Not stimming during an interview, etc. I'm talking about limiting yourself to socially acceptable behavior in situations where it matters.

People often do these things. Those are "no brainers", because those are clearly things one should do/should not do during an interview. If you don't know at first, you pick up on it. But a lot of people need practice to learn anything. I think there is a gap here between your experience- which it seems you feel everyone can emulate; and others' experiences, which are quite clearly legitimately different from your experience. That makes sense- most people have a hard time understanding things outside their own experience.

Even if you do all of those things "right" on paper, you still don't fit the mold. The interview and hiring process is still carried out by humans, so if someone simply doesn't like you and there is someone they just "like" a little more? That person will get hired and they will work to make the case why they should be hired over you. But much of the time they don't even need to.

There is also this idea that we need to be a "team player" and even in places where that affects productivity only SO MUCH, for some reason that is still prized over solid skills. If people just don't find you engaging and social they will justify why you aren't working out and pick at you until there is nothing left. I think of all the group work I have been forced to endure in my courses. It's supposed to teach teamwork. The truth is that I know how to work on a team very well- and I have. But none of it has been done with people who don't want to actually contribute or who think that personality should be a factor in a project. All my teamwork has come from community projects or research. When in school people don't give a crap and I ended up having to do the work much of the time or I go down too. These are the people who graduate and go on to populate the business world. They prize a smile over results because until recently everything was about the suit you wear or how you walked. In reality that isn't really the case anymore; tech industry and related are flourishing. Individuals work to eliminate people who don't fit though. It's the way of the world.

If you haven't experienced these things, it's great! I'm not sure how long you have been out of the working world but you also have stated repeatedly that you haven't faced a lot of adversity personally because you didn't have a diagnosis- that you can pass for NT. I think given the combination of being able to pass for NT and not being in the working world recently may possibly give you a different perspective.

They are there to produce a product or a service and I'm there to do the same thing and to get a paycheck.
We need to stop trying to combine emotional issues with financial and work issues.

I would suggest that everyone need to do that. Many individuals on the spectrum do well in jobs that are in these sectors but their coworkers find they can't babble on for ten minutes about minutia so don't value them. They get pissy and go to HR and complain they aren't a "team player". That really means they ruin all the fun because they only concentrate on work.

So when you say we need to stop trying to combine emotional issues with financial and work issues, I completely agree- but where does that start? You are hoping to initiate a project that only includes people who "contribute to society" by means of having a full time job. Is that because you feel anything else would project a wrong impression and that bothers you? I understand the need to express that some of us are working, are in the world, etc etc etc. But that is an emotional need attached to working and finances- which otherwise are just ways to support oneself. I don't put it that way to be mean, I'm trying to make my point more relatable or understandable.

To an extent we are what we can accomplish and how we feel about that. Work places refuse to separate emotion from output and that is actually why so many people on the spectrum find themselves ousted for very petty reasons. If an employee is doing well and adhering to their responsibilities, not actively taking away from others' productivity? Not much else should matter.

But it does seem to. From the application all the way through to the lunch room, to benefits, to raises. Everything.

And I know you didn't say this but re: special consideration regarding interviewing- if you disclose that you have autism before an interview? No one will hire you. And you have no recourse. And people will tell you it had nothing to do with you not being hired, because you had all of these accommodations. If that is up for debate, review some of the attitudes in this thread.

I was not diagnosed until my early twenties, but part of the reason for that is we thought it was something else. I have been greatly affected by some of the difficulties that come with being on the spectrum. I also have some great strengths. I know that there are some aspects that have affected various parts of my life for better and worse- the fact that I didn't play some strange social ritual has hurt me and even put me in risky situations. The fact that I am positively in love with everything having to do with psychology and the brain- and it shows if someone talks to me for five minutes- has opened amazing doors for me in the past. Luckily my main passion and interest is in a field where they don't mind a little bit of social incompetence if you have other things to compensate. Other places I won't be so lucky so stopped those pursuits.

I can see why there are differing opinions here but that doesn't make a person's lived experience invalid. Someone who proclaims to get by a lot easier to the point where they don't really think much about being on the spectrum is going to naturally have a very different lived experience than someone who identifies as being on the spectrum generally as part of life.

Someone who is not actually on the spectrum will have a different perspective as well. Autism is different from most medical conditions- neurological conditions often are quite complex. You can almost always take away diabetes and still have the same person. You can't just take away the autism and have me left over. You've taken a large part of me with it. *shrug*

 

[OliveOilMom]

Not as long as society accepts the LGBT community without trying to change them, it doesn't. AS is very similar. Aspies aren't broken. The problem lies with society's perceptions of AS.

Societies perception of us doesn't fix the issues that AS causes us. No matter how much you want to turn AS into something it isn't, it is always going to be a medical condition. It is always something that will cause problems for those who have it, no matter how severely or mildly we have it. It is always going to cause us to do things that others look at strangely. It is not a type of personality or a sexual orientation or a race or an ethnicity. It is a medical condition that can require treatment so the person can have a better quality of life.

No matter how much acceptance a person gets it won't fix the deficits we have because of the AS. It just won't.

As for working, everybody has to learn to present a good image to get a job. We are not exempt from that. It's not changing who you are to learn how to present yourself well and professionally at an interview. It's not the company's job to boost your self esteem. Companies are there to make a profit and if they don't think you can contribute to that then they are not going to hire you. If you are up front about the AS and how you know you don't come across very well under pressure then they may take that into consideration and give you the job or a second interview. Either way you are going to have to put forth some effort into coming across well. You have to let them know you are trying. When I interviewed people I expected them to present themselves professionally and show some confidence at the interview. If they didn't do that then I didn't want them working for me because I felt that if they couldn't be bothered to try and make a good impression on me then they didn't care very much about the job.

The whole world isn't there to cater to anyone's needs no matter what disabilities they have. Accommodations can, are, and should be made when a qualified person needs them to do the job, but no matter how qualified the person is, if they can't come across as professional and confident at the interview the chances are low of them getting the job. While that may seem unfair, it actually is fair. The way a person comes across in the interview is usually a very good indicator of how the person will conduct themselves on the job. If someone can't say two sentences to the interviewer without getting flustered then the chances are low that they will be able to communicate well with their co-workers either. If a person doesn't come across as somewhat friendly during the interview, they probably won't come across friendly with any customers, clients, vendors or co-workers either. Those things can cause you not to be able to do the job very well too.

When you have a problem with the way you come across to people you need to work on how you come across. That isn't changing who you are, it's changing how you present yourself. Asking someone to change how they present themselves and communicate to others in a professional setting is not at all asking them to change who they are, nor is it insulting. If someone is so misguided about this that they feel they should make an effort to seem more professional or pleasant then they most likely would not be a very good employee.

There are some jobs that a person who can't communicate well just couldn't do. When we owned the store and I interviewed for cashier spots if someone had come for the interview and kept looking down the whole time, and mumbling and couldn't really answer my questions in a direct way then there is no way I was going to hire them to do that job.

Why are you so resistant to the idea of people with AS pushing themselves to learn how to come across professionally and pleasantly during an interview? Would you be against lets say some 22 year old NT being pushed to learn to speak, act and dress professional for an interview? Or is it only those with AS who you think should be exempt from any of the rules of society? How far do you want to go with accommodations? Also, what happens if the person gets the job and has trouble with the clothing? Many people with AS have trouble wearing certain types of clothing and it's very distracting and bugs the crap out of them and they just can't wear it for any length of time. What if that person got a job in an office where he needed to dress in a business casual manner but couldn't wear things that tight and only felt comfortable in jeans and tshirts? Should that guy be given a pass to dress differently than everybody else? What about the girl who gets a job somewhere but the lights give her a headache? Should they change the entire lighting system for the office for her? After all she has AS.

If you want to exempt yourself from all the rules of society and the realities of life then you are certainly free to do so, but don't expect others to make any effort whatsoever for you if you aren't willing to make any effort for them. And you have yet to answer what exactly you have trouble with during an interview? Is it looking them in the eye? Is it shaking hands? Is it getting flustered when you are trying to talk to them? What is it?

And again, just one more time because it's important, AS is a medical condition. We are not a large percentage of society and while we shouldn't be discriminated against because of AS, and we may never fit in 100% but we should try to fit in as best as we can.

What exactly is the AS causing you to do or not do that is preventing you from getting a job?

 

[OliveOilMom]

People often do these things. Those are "no brainers", because those are clearly things one should do/should not do during an interview. If you don't know at first, you pick up on it. But a lot of people need practice to learn anything. I think there is a gap here between your experience- which it seems you feel everyone can emulate; and others' experiences, which are quite clearly legitimately different from your experience. That makes sense- most people have a hard time understanding things outside their own experience.

Even if you do all of those things "right" on paper, you still don't fit the mold. The interview and hiring process is still carried out by humans, so if someone simply doesn't like you and there is someone they just "like" a little more? That person will get hired and they will work to make the case why they should be hired over you. But much of the time they don't even need to.

There is also this idea that we need to be a "team player" and even in places where that affects productivity only SO MUCH, for some reason that is still prized over solid skills. If people just don't find you engaging and social they will justify why you aren't working out and pick at you until there is nothing left. I think of all the group work I have been forced to endure in my courses. It's supposed to teach teamwork. The truth is that I know how to work on a team very well- and I have. But none of it has been done with people who don't want to actually contribute or who think that personality should be a factor in a project. All my teamwork has come from community projects or research. When in school people don't give a crap and I ended up having to do the work much of the time or I go down too. These are the people who graduate and go on to populate the business world. They prize a smile over results because until recently everything was about the suit you wear or how you walked. In reality that isn't really the case anymore; tech industry and related are flourishing. Individuals work to eliminate people who don't fit though. It's the way of the world.

If you haven't experienced these things, it's great! I'm not sure how long you have been out of the working world but you also have stated repeatedly that you haven't faced a lot of adversity personally because you didn't have a diagnosis- that you can pass for NT. I think given the combination of being able to pass for NT and not being in the working world recently may possibly give you a different perspective.




I would suggest that everyone need to do that. Many individuals on the spectrum do well in jobs that are in these sectors but their coworkers find they can't babble on for ten minutes about minutia so don't value them. They get pissy and go to HR and complain they aren't a "team player". That really means they ruin all the fun because they only concentrate on work.

So when you say we need to stop trying to combine emotional issues with financial and work issues, I completely agree- but where does that start? You are hoping to initiate a project that only includes people who "contribute to society" by means of having a full time job. Is that because you feel anything else would project a wrong impression and that bothers you? I understand the need to express that some of us are working, are in the world, etc etc etc. But that is an emotional need attached to working and finances- which otherwise are just ways to support oneself. I don't put it that way to be mean, I'm trying to make my point more relatable or understandable.

To an extent we are what we can accomplish and how we feel about that. Work places refuse to separate emotion from output and that is actually why so many people on the spectrum find themselves ousted for very petty reasons. If an employee is doing well and adhering to their responsibilities, not actively taking away from others' productivity? Not much else should matter.

But it does seem to. From the application all the way through to the lunch room, to benefits, to raises. Everything.

And I know you didn't say this but re: special consideration regarding interviewing- if you disclose that you have autism before an interview? No one will hire you. And you have no recourse. And people will tell you it had nothing to do with you not being hired, because you had all of these accommodations. If that is up for debate, review some of the attitudes in this thread.

I was not diagnosed until my early twenties, but part of the reason for that is we thought it was something else. I have been greatly affected by some of the difficulties that come with being on the spectrum. I also have some great strengths. I know that there are some aspects that have affected various parts of my life for better and worse- the fact that I didn't play some strange social ritual has hurt me and even put me in risky situations. The fact that I am positively in love with everything having to do with psychology and the brain- and it shows if someone talks to me for five minutes- has opened amazing doors for me in the past. Luckily my main passion and interest is in a field where they don't mind a little bit of social incompetence if you have other things to compensate. Other places I won't be so lucky so stopped those pursuits.

I can see why there are differing opinions here but that doesn't make a person's lived experience invalid. Someone who proclaims to get by a lot easier to the point where they don't really think much about being on the spectrum is going to naturally have a very different lived experience than someone who identifies as being on the spectrum generally as part of life.

Someone who is not actually on the spectrum will have a different perspective as well. Autism is different from most medical conditions- neurological conditions often are quite complex. You can almost always take away diabetes and still have the same person. You can't just take away the autism and have me left over. You've taken a large part of me with it. *shrug*

I've worked with people I didn't like at all. I just smiled and would pretend to be interested in what they were saying for a minute then come up with an excuse that I had to get back to work so I didn't have to deal with socializing with them. It's hard for me to pretend that I like someone I don't and to pretend that I'm enjoying myself when I'm not, so thats why I'd make an excuse and get out of there. You know, it's not just us that may have trouble with the social aspects of a job. Not every NT is outgoing and talkative and has social skills. There are tons of them who dislike socializing and aren't good at it and who make bad impressions to others. There are little tips and tricks that can get you out of the situation fast or that can help you deal with it while you are in it. It's possible even for us to learn them.

As for my project, I'm not saying that the only education about AS needs to be the group that I'm focusing on, I'm focusing on that group because thats the group I'm in and it's also the group that people really have no idea exists. Most people think that anyone with autism is doomed to a life of either unemployment or low paying jobs that are created especially for the disabled, like sorting things at Goodwill or something. I'm not trying to discriminate against other aspies by focusing on the group I'm in, it's simply the first group that popped into my mind. Whats wrong with presenting information about aspies who are contributing to society in traditional ways?

The thing about taking away autism and not having yourself left over is something I don't completely buy. Yes, you have had autism your whole life, so have I. So has everyone with autism. If they made a magic pill that would take away my AS and I took it right now, I think the only things that would be gone are the difficulties I have. It wouldn't take away my interests. I've got some pretty strange special interests too, but I would still have them. I'd still have my intelligence and the same skills I have. I might lose the hyperfocus I sometimes get when I'm caught up in something I'm very interested in, but that may be a good thing. I don't believe AS makes us any smarter than we would be without it. Taking away the AS wouldn't take away the interests but it may take away the level of intensity we have in those interests. That could be a good thing overall.

I think a lot of the feelings people have about their AS being a wonderful gift and being so proud of having it stems from trying to turn it into something that it isn't. Trying to make it something that you should be proud of and that does help you so much to try and boost self esteem. It's a normal response to try and think of something that's a problem differently to help you deal with it better. It's just an extension of looking at the silver lining of a cloud. It's a harmless way of coping until the person decides that it's not a cloud with a silver lining, it's actually a big hunk of precious metal and a treasure worthy of a dragon hoard and anytime anyone insists that there is a cloud attached to it is discriminating and trying to harm our silver. It's not a silver lining though, if anything it's usable tin.