I'm feeling conflicted and unhappy with my family situation. May I have some validation and/or advice? (trigger warning, also, I think)

[Dom529]

My parents, certainly---my extended family--I am unsure. I've done my mourning and planted a tree (anonymously) in her memory; something is better than outright ignoring those who never hurt me.

Thanks; it takes a lot of energy.

I get that but good that you know where you stand with them + where they stand with you.

I hear you on the energy consumption - ASD/AS does already command a lot of energy with masking/camouflaging.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I get that but good that you know where you stand with them + where they stand with you.

I hear you on the energy consumption - ASD/AS does already command a lot of energy with masking/camouflaging.

Yeah, I...the majority of my extended family--I have not seen in a very long time. I 'skipped out' on a family gathering around this time a year ago--and that was when I had the first inklings that I may have autism. I mean them no ill will but worry about whatever lies my mother may be spreading--this makes me want to explode on the Facebook about what I've learned about me but...

Golly it certainly does. I got so burned out on retail in the past of having to mask and also having to tolerate people. But now in my current retail position I do not mask; I am silent. The less I speak, the less energy I use.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Hey, I've got one: all that "new generation" stuff is probably increased literacy on these topics, as the science of psychology matures along with the words we use to describe things. I guaran-damn-tee you if you take classes in the arts, in history, or in the history of the arts, you see the exact same effects of peoples' minds at work, but you also see them described using different language.
Edit: To make things perfectly clear. I grew up with parents who were not the most emotionally stable people in the world, and I do not have a functioning relationship with my father. I have lived in fear, of one form or another, since I was about 13 or 14.

@NeonatalRRT in none of your text do I see anything about a life higher than the animal level. The human being is perfectly capable of living in a life higher than this, and I do not believe I would be able to forgive myself if I raised sons & daughters on the old "authoritarian" principles (which, as you self-report on the older childhoods, seems to be no principles apart from conformity & seeing what you can get away with.) It is better to be of Athens than of Sparta. Good-day.

You've expressed what I've been thinking too. Thank you.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Could you write them a letter? Whether or not you decide to give it to them in the end could be a decision for a later date. But writing down exactly what you really wish to tell them could help you understand things better and possibly be cathartic as well.


This sounds pretty good to me. Direct, simple, and no back-and-forth necessary.

A very good suggestion; I've written to them many letters, either with the purpose of being viewed by them or not. My journals contain such letters, and my computer, and one of my therapists. I worry that mailing it would mean one of them reading it and discarding it immediately, and then gaslighting me about it. I agree that it would be useful and cathartic--but I've been riding this catharticism for years. My journals and my music have been unwritten words wishing to express something.

Precisely; he asked no questions, and neither will I. Oh but to think of the pity-party my mother would bombarde me with; "Think about how you made your father feel!" Ever since I was young she always tried to guilt-trip me about him about anything. Overcompensating because she never knew her father? I don't know. I just hate that I feel guilty even thinking about it.

 

[Dom529]

Yeah, I...the majority of my extended family--I have not seen in a very long time. I 'skipped out' on a family gathering around this time a year ago--and that was when I had the first inklings that I may have autism. I mean them no ill will but worry about whatever lies my mother may be spreading--this makes me want to explode on the Facebook about what I've learned about me but...

Golly it certainly does. I got so burned out on retail in the past of having to mask and also having to tolerate people. But now in my current retail position I do not mask; I am silent. The less I speak, the less energy I use.

Sorry to hear it was so much & that your immediate family are spreading dissidence.

Good job for finding a better job + putting yourself first.

I am currently trying to do the same - my job as a Accounting Generalist (at a ERP software company is not for me (too chaotic of a work style) & I want to be more in a traditional accounting role (like what I am studying).

 

[Knower of nothing]

I haven't gone to a funeral, wedding or christmas party in years and not for lack of pushy invitations. It's not worth it. Your dad is allowed to be sad about it too. It'll do him some good from the sounds of it.

 

[Knower of nothing]

So, I think you're judging another generation by today's social norms, which is not appropriate.

Self-responsibility leaves no rooms for excuses that derive from "culture made me this way". It's weak. People can think for themselves, it's a decision when they prefer not to.
It's not some grand high intelligent revelation that seriously hitting your child is a malicious act of sadism.

 

[The Pandector]

I really do appreciate your perspective. May I ask: what did it feel like to have a sort of lightbulb moment and realize "Oh, hitting my kids is wrong?" Or am I reading things wrong and you don't have children?

Sounds like a lot of folks in your generation are suffering from a bunch of emotional wounds--and of course the generations before you. But I also think...to be so stuck in ways of the past and not consider...well, adapting with the times? I'm curious on your thought of judging a former generation on today's norms...but the more I read, the more I get it. I'm still bothered by it though. This whole thing bothers me.

I’m just going to be the angel’s advocate here and risk being hated forever.

I spanked my children. Not often, maybe three or four times in their lives. It was not wrong for me to do so. When you refuse to learn lessons Life can be downright brutal. Mommies and daddies didn’t make up that rule, it has to do with survival, which I want my children to do.

I’ll try not to publicly sob at the direction of our society. This is not a political thread and I am not making a political statement. One can hardly deny that western civilization is deteriorating. So I will pretend that I am laughing at young people today who can look at this world and conclude that corporal punishment is necessarily evil.

I take the occasional alcoholic beverage, but that doesn’t make me a drunk driver or abusive mate. Yes, alcohol use can be related to those behaviors, but it takes a certain type of hubris for the abused person to smear the occasional drinker because of the abusers. It happens all the time; the most vehement anti-drinkers have seen the bad effects up close.

Not once did I strike a child in anger. The offender was sent to his room until every nerve was calm. Everybody had plenty of time to consider everyone else’s behavior. When Dad finally came in to talk, you knew better than to mouth off; everything you said had better be based in fact. If it came to a spanking, your approach to truth had a lot to do with your immediate future. Very much like the *real* world I was preparing them for.

When the tike breaks handgrip and runs towards the street, you don’t talk it through; that behavior earns immediate retribution, just as in the real world. But almost everything else is learned by example or by teaching. My general rule was three occurrences: you were told, then warned, then the consequences.

If criteria were met, such as coverup lies or a hardened heart or a number of minor consequences not working, the butt would be bared. No contact was ever made with a squirming child; you took your three whacks as boldly as you knowingly broke the rules. Never a bruise, always a lasting impression. I am confident that neither of my children ever thought they received an unfair spanking. Each child received a total of maybe three or four spankings in their life. Each spanking had the desired effect and neither of them were ever bitter after a spanking and, tears dried, all was forgotten.

Having explained all of that…

I find it beyond ironic that anyone could look at the world today and think the problem is with too much discipline of any nature. What hubris for a bank robber in a prison cell to lecture us about childhood discipline. How about the schools taking the vanguard and explaining to us how they have managed to produce a well balanced society with their own brand of discipline. What blind pride for the 30-something parents of today’s druggies and gangbangers to tell us older people how cruel we were to turn out a civil and clear thinking generation.

And how sad that people who understand the nature of the human condition are expected to hide their wisdom from a wayward generation. Of COURSE kids don’t like to be spanked. That’s why we didn’t give them ice cream when they misbehaved.

If a person has a history of receiving improper corporal discipline, let them lay the blame where it belongs, which is on the abuser.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Self-responsibility leaves no rooms for excuses that derive from "culture made me this way". It's weak. People can think for themselves, it's a decision when they prefer not to.
It's not some grand high intelligent revelation that seriously hitting your child is a malicious act of sadism.

No it's not weak. We are NOT talking about parents hitting their child in 2023. This is not the discussion. I think you are lacking perspective within the context of this discussion. The perspective was that in generations before, physical punishment was a very common and accepted way. That's what our parents did, that's what our neighbors did, this is what was the accepted way.

However, with each subsequent generation, parents DID think for themselves and decide to do things differently, as did I. It wasn't social or cultural pressure, my wife and I found different ways.

That said, our parents and grandparents did not have that perspective. Children were to be, and I am quoting my own parents, "seen and not heard". My parents and grandparents, for the most part, didn't discuss things with their children, they just dealt with things in a physical way, especially when children were too young to be put to work. That was the norm. An older child would simply be put to work. Our parents didn't want us in the home during the day, so things like TV, toys, etc. were not something a parent could use as leverage. We were put to work with a heavy chores list, something long, hard, dirty, and physical.

Do not conflate what was a tempered child spanking from an otherwise responsible parent with that of a drunkard father coming home to beat the children or his wife. Two, very, very different things. The idea of a spanking was NOT to create injury, but create an emotional event tied to an undesirable behavior the child did, let it burn into their brain as something they would never do again. I know, in 2023, these concepts may be unacceptable, foreign, and hard to wrap one's brain around because it's no longer accepted practice, but back-in-the-day, you were actually looked down upon for "not having control" of your children. If a kid acted up in public, absolutely it was expected that a parent stop what they were doing and spank their children right there, right now, in front of everyone. If they didn't, that parent would be talked about as a "bad parent".

If anyone had the courage to walk up to a parent, at that point, and say something like, "I am calling the police! You are a horrible person and parent. You should have your children taken away from you!" Believe me, the rest of the people witnessing it would take that complainer and shut them down right now. Why? Because even having those sorts of thoughts and expressing them would be meaning that every other parent there was going to take offense, those were fighting words, if not, they would have chastised that complainer horribly. It wouldn't have been good for the complainer, and everyone else would have defended that parent.

Perspective matters. That was my world growing up in the 1960's, 70's, and 80's. No, I don't think we had "trauma" from it, it was just the way things were. It was very different. The parents who spanked their children, they're dead, are grandparents, they no longer have small children to deal with.

 

[The Pandector]

No it's not weak. We are NOT talking about parents hitting their child in 2023. This is not the discussion. I think you are lacking perspective within the context of this discussion. The perspective was that in generations before, physical punishment was a very common and accepted way. That's what our parents did, that's what our neighbors did, this is what was the accepted way.

However, with each subsequent generation, parents DID think for themselves and decide to do things differently, as did I. It wasn't social or cultural pressure, my wife and I found different ways.

That said, our parents and grandparents did not have that perspective. Children were to be, and I am quoting my own parents, "seen and not heard". My parents and grandparents, for the most part, didn't discuss things with their children, they just dealt with things in a physical way, especially when children were too young to be put to work. That was the norm. An older child would simply be put to work. Our parents didn't want us in the home during the day, so things like TV, toys, etc. were not something a parent could use as leverage. We were put to work with a heavy chores list, something long, hard, dirty, and physical.

Do not conflate what was a tempered child spanking from an otherwise responsible parent with that of a drunkard father coming home to beat the children or his wife. Two, very, very different things. The idea of a spanking was NOT to create injury, but create an emotional event tied to an undesirable behavior the child did, let it burn into their brain as something they would never do again. I know, in 2023, these concepts may be unacceptable, foreign, and hard to wrap one's brain around because it's no longer accepted practice, but back-in-the-day, you were actually looked down upon for "not having control" of your children. If a kid acted up in public, absolutely it was expected that a parent stop what they were doing and spank their children right there, right now, in front of everyone. If they didn't, that parent would be talked about as a "bad parent".

If anyone had the courage to walk up to a parent, at that point, and say something like, "I am calling the police! You are a horrible person and parent. You should have your children taken away from you!" Believe me, the rest of the people witnessing it would take that complainer and shut them down right now. Why? Because even having those sorts of thoughts and expressing them would be meaning that every other parent there was going to take offense, those were fighting words, if not, they would have chastised that complainer horribly. It wouldn't have been good for the complainer, and everyone else would have defended that parent.

Perspective matters. That was my world growing up in the 1960's, 70's, and 80's. No, I don't think we had "trauma" from it, it was just the way things were. It was very different. The parents who spanked their children, they're dead, are grandparents, they no longer have small children to deal with.

I agree with what you said so well.

Frankly, however, it sounds as though, in general, you have found a better way. As though the art of parenting has been refined and the ways of the past have been improved upon. I’m good with you thinking that way.

I can’t help but notice that some of the new and improved parenting techniques evolved over the same time frame that the social contract crumbled. My observations during that time period were that there was a distinct correlation.

Which is to say… Society has changed and some childrearing options have disappeared while others have materialized. (My parents could never have taken my phone.). But the propriety of teaching a child that willfully hurtful behavior results in personal pain (I didn’t say discomfort) is timeless.

Also timeless is the brutality that can spring from human nature. I shoot guns, but not people (yet); I drive cars, but not drunk; I spanked my children but never struck anyone in anger.

I’m all for people raising their own children as they see fit. I have yet to see the proper use of discipline improved upon and see no social indication that any new ways produce a healthier populous.

I hardly know you, but would lay good money that you’ve done very well by your children. So, it’s a general comment I’m making.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Never a bruise, always a lasting impression. I am confident that neither of my children ever thought they received an unfair spanking. Each child received a total of maybe three or four spankings in their life. Each spanking had the desired effect and neither of them were ever bitter after a spanking and, tears dried, all was forgotten.

And how are you so confident of what your children thought? Could they ever come to you in times of trouble, seeking advice and wisdom? Were you ever able to comfort them emotionally? 'Tears dried, all forgotten.' Most likely not forgotten, but suppressed. I also find it very hard to believe that anyone can hit somebody not out of anger; there's got to be a special kind of cruel to just hit someone and say "It's not because I'm angry."

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Self-responsibility leaves no rooms for excuses that derive from "culture made me this way". It's weak. People can think for themselves, it's a decision when they prefer not to.
It's not some grand high intelligent revelation that seriously hitting your child is a malicious act of sadism.

You're right; people can think for themselves but perhaps they are afraid to. It's all psychological peer-pressure from people long-gone.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

And how are you so confident of what your children thought? Could they ever come to you in times of trouble, seeking advice and wisdom? Were you ever able to comfort them emotionally? 'Tears dried, all forgotten.' Most likely not forgotten, but suppressed. I also find it very hard to believe that anyone can hit somebody not out of anger; there's got to be a special kind of cruel to just hit someone and say "It's not because I'm angry."

Again, you are thinking and judging based upon today's cultural value system. One, "This was the way." There was no thinking of it as wrong, because nobody questioned it back then. Nobody presented an alternative. Seriously. At no point in my childhood did my parents comfort me emotionally. The first time I shook my father's hand was at my wedding. There was no public displays of affection between parents, and certainly not amongst parents and children. This is commonplace now, but back then, that was unheard of. You would be "coddling a child" and making him/her a "spoiled brat, or worse, "weak". Different times. We were told not to cry, even little girls, but if you did cry, you had better been a girl. If you were a boy that cried, your parents would punish you for being weak. Weakness in boys was not tolerated at any level. "This was the way."

Fathers often came home from work, tired, and then mothers would run down the happenings of the day during dinner. Then, it would be at some point during the family meal, the famously repeated phrase, "So, Mark, tell your father what you did today." At which point, I would have to confess what I did. My father was not angry, he was tired, but it was expected of him, as the father, to discipline the children. After dinner, he would tell me, "Go to your room and I will meet you up there." I would get my lashes with the belt and that would be the end of it. "This was the way."

It had nothing to do with being cruel. It was a role of the parent. Liking or disliking it was never a thought.

It is a difficult thing for people now-a-days to wrap their brains around this whole concept because in 2023, it is NOT how we parent now, but back then, this was the way.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

Again, you are thinking and judging based upon today's cultural value system. One, "This was the way." There was no thinking of it as wrong, because nobody questioned it back then. Nobody presented an alternative.

I imagine many children questioned these things, internally, but being powerless, what could they do?

 

[Mr. Stevens]

Whenever I used to receive corporal punishment at the hands of my father, he called it 'going to the woodshed.' I never had broken bones nor scars nor anything physically permanent; do I care because this was most likely how he was treated as a child? No. I'm just...in awe because how can you, as a parent, make the choice to hit or spank your child and think nothing of it? One of my greatest worries is that I would have become physically abusive to my fiance as a result of what I endured as a child. My sister turns a blind eye to what happened to me and insists that I must support our father. What does she know? He never laid a finger on her and always protected her from our mother.

I hear you. At best, it's a total failure to communicate. So force is used instead. But, often it's much darker. Parents who hate themselves, who hate their children...who want children without the responsibility of parenting. Or wanting children to be what they're too weak to become.

I don't know if you've ever read Alice Miller, but she wrote a lot about this stuff. I enjoyed this book:

Also, her website: Alice Miller - Child Abuse and Mistreatment.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

Again, you are thinking and judging based upon today's cultural value system. One, "This was the way." There was no thinking of it as wrong, because nobody questioned it back then. Nobody presented an alternative. Seriously. At no point in my childhood did my parents comfort me emotionally. The first time I shook my father's hand was at my wedding. There was no public displays of affection between parents, and certainly not amongst parents and children. This is commonplace now, but back then, that was unheard of. You would be "coddling a child" and making him/her a "spoiled brat, or worse, "weak". Different times. We were told not to cry, even little girls, but if you did cry, you had better been a girl. If you were a boy that cried, your parents would punish you for being weak. Weakness in boys was not tolerated at any level. "This was the way."

Fathers often came home from work, tired, and then mothers would run down the happenings of the day during dinner. Then, it would be at some point during the family meal, the famously repeated phrase, "So, Mark, tell your father what you did today." At which point, I would have to confess what I did. My father was not angry, he was tired, but it was expected of him, as the father, to discipline the children. After dinner, he would tell me, "Go to your room and I will meet you up there." I would get my lashes with the belt and that would be the end of it. "This was the way."

It had nothing to do with being cruel. It was a role of the parent. Liking or disliking it was never a thought.

It is a difficult thing for people now-a-days to wrap their brains around this whole concept because in 2023, it is NOT how we parent now, but back then, this was the way.

You're right--it is difficult for me to wrap my brain around it. I'm sorry that you were abused while growing up.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

I hear you. At best, it's a total failure to communicate. So force is used instead. But, often it's much darker. Parents who hate themselves, who hate their children...who want children without the responsibility of parenting. Or wanting children to be what they're too weak to become.

I don't know if you've ever read Alice Miller, but she wrote a lot about this stuff. I enjoyed this book:

Also, her website: Alice Miller - Child Abuse and Mistreatment.

Ooh, thanks for the suggestion! I will look at it.
I agree that it's a miscommunication and handling of one's own emotions. I guess the best thing I can do is never stoop to the level of my parents.

 

[The Pandector]

And how are you so confident of what your children thought? Could they ever come to you in times of trouble, seeking advice and wisdom? Were you ever able to comfort them emotionally? 'Tears dried, all forgotten.' Most likely not forgotten, but suppressed. I also find it very hard to believe that anyone can hit somebody not out of anger; there's got to be a special kind of cruel to just hit someone and say "It's not because I'm angry."

You made my point, friend. You find it very hard to believe. It is apparently outside the realm of your world. And yet, here I am in earnest, telling you it’s true. Maybe you find it easier to call me a liar or accuse me of a special kind of cruelty than to stretch your mind.

Yes, my children occasionally came to me for advice, and they came running to Doctor Dad when life got bumpy. For you to lash out with the assumption it was otherwise suggests that you have a history of abuse or your own emotional investment. That was my early point… the most vehemently anti alcoholic people have witnessed the ugly side and feel justified in condemning alcohol use in general.

Which is why I say, you can’t judge an entire realm by looking at the abusers. If you know or knew an abuser, lay all that venom and judgement on their doorstep, not mine.

 

[autism-and-autotune]

You made my point, friend. You find it very hard to believe. It is apparently outside the realm of your world. And yet, here I am in earnest, telling you it’s true. Maybe you find it easier to call me a liar or accuse me of a special kind of cruelty than to stretch your mind.

Yes, my children occasionally came to me for advice, and they came running to Doctor Dad when life got bumpy. For you to lash out with the assumption it was otherwise suggests that you have a history of abuse or your own emotional investment. That was my early point… the most vehemently anti alcoholic people have witnessed the ugly side and feel justified in condemning alcohol use in general.

Which is why I say, you can’t judge an entire realm by looking at the abusers. If you know or knew an abuser, lay all that venom and judgement on their doorstep, not mine.

You're right; bringing out the anger I have for my abusers onto you is pointless. I'm sorry.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

You're right--it is difficult for me to wrap my brain around it. I'm sorry that you were abused while growing up.

It was never conceived that it was abuse. For many of my generation, this was the way a parent was supposed to raise a child during that time. No apologies. I don't consider myself abused. It was just different. Abuse is only abuse if the parent and/or the child internalized it that way. For the great majority of us, this was not the case.

Yes, by today's construct of parenting, nearly all of our parents would be accused of neglect, physical and emotional abuse. But for generations, this was the way and never considered any of that.

This leads into another topic, but please understand what I am saying here when we talk about the divide in this country between folks with conservative values and those that are more liberal. It was the liberalism in this country, the exposure to universities in mass, feminist movements, gay rights, anti-masculine propaganda, as well as the advent of the internet and liberal leaning media outlets that lead towards this whole idea of how to raise our children differently. For the vast majority of us, we were the first in our families to go school beyond high school. Sure, some of our parents went to the university, but it was not pushed as a society until the 1970's. It was OUR generation that was first exposed to these ideas in mass. WE looked back at how we were raised as children, and had all of these new ideas being thrown at us for the first time. It was US that raised the children born from say 1981-1996, what we know as the Millennials, and some of the early Gen Z of the late 1990s-early 2000s. It was our generation, as adults, that lived between 2 worlds, the old and the new. Our generation may be one of the last true holdouts of what would be considered politically "independent", the so-called "swing voters", the "middle". As our brains are strongly rooted in conservatism yet we took many of the progressive, liberal ideology later on, and know, we are finding ourselves getting a bit more conservative as we get older. We look at what we have done with our children, and in many ways, see it as a mistake, as we often criticize those ways of thinking back in the 1990s-2000s with "all children are special" (false), "think and do with your feelings" (false), "everyone's a winner" (false), so on an so forth. We have gotten away from understanding that not everyone is special, only a very few. We have gotten away from the fact that sometimes you just have to be responsible and do what is right or what needs to be done despite how you feel. We have gotten away from the fact that there is only ONE winner, and that if you want to win, you have to be truly special or you have to work smarter and/or harder than the other person. What we did get right, though was concepts of "inclusivity" and "acceptance" of people who are different than us, and when I say this, it goes beyond the racial conversation, but now LGTBQ and neurodiversity. This is a work in progress for us as a nation, as clearly, we are still struggling, but the conversation is there, where before, it was not. If we don't end up in a civil war over all these things, if we survive the culture wars, we will be better for it on the back end, perhaps a few generations into the future.