I'm Still Learning...

[LucyPurrs]

He almost sounds as if he interprets any difference of opinion as personal criticism so is so busy constructing his own defense that he's unable to focus on and hear what you are saying. I wonder if you had a "discussion" with the ground rules that you couldn't talk only write your responses, if that would have any different result. Just a thought.

 

[SnailPie]

YES! That's what I've often thought as well.

He hears criticism/personal attacks when there are none.
He can interpret the most benign, even thoughtful/caring gesture or comment into some type of negative. (His ex wife treated him very poorly, I and I wonder if he wasn't trained to think any type of question meant a barrage was coming.)
I have actually done something respectful and loving, and had him get very angry and go on the offensive because he completely misunderstood my intent.

An example: He's very attached to his "stuff" which I completely understand and respect. I picked up a pen many times to use it and it was out of ink, which got frustrating since it's in an area where we routinely pick up pens there to work with.
I think a regular person might have just thrown it out; it was old and dried up and of no use. Nothing fancy. Just an old pen.

So I put it aside to ask him about it, whether or not he wanted to keep it. Just to the side, 12 inches over, right there where he could see it.

He says, angrily, and immediately "What is THAT pen doing THERE???!?!?" and accuses me of being uncaring about his stuff. He jumped right down my throat.
He accused me of forgetting a conversation we'd had about THAT PEN months ago, and was very angry because he thought I was telling him the pen was junk, and he needed to "do something with all his crap."

Problem is, this was ALL IN HIS HEAD.

Yes, we had talked about a old pen months ago, and he said he'd wanted to keep it as a memento from a tour he'd been on. Got it.
Well, I had no idea that he'd put said pen right back in the general population pen pile after the significance he'd attached to it. (And to tell the truth, he has TONS of stuff like this and I couldn't pick *THAT* pen out of a pile if my life depended on it!)

So here I am, thinking I'm doing the right thing by safely putting this pen aside to ask about it, because I'd never throw it away, out of ink or not.

Trying to make him understand I meant him no harm and was actually trying to be respectful of his things, ended up with a big argument because apparently, he *knew* what I *really* meant and it was a criticism of him and his wanting to keep things. Not so!
No matter how I tried to explain myself, that I loved him and was just trying to help, the more he insisted that I didn't know what I was talking about. (Hello? It's my thought process, I think I'd be the expert on what I was trying to convey...)

I have never given him grief about ANYTHING like that, EVER.
Maybe it was his Ex who did this sort of thing with him?
He still insists I "should have KNOWN it was THAT (special memento) pen" and was quite insulted that I couldn't remember. I'm sorry, I just think that's unreasonable...but to this day thinks he was justified in jumping down my throat over it.

In any case, "The Pen Incident" is one I will never forget.

The problem seems to be that he sees me as this person who is capable of treating him horribly, even though the evidence is not there. I've never done any of those things. I have the utmost respect for him and his treasures. I am the same myself. So I don't get it, where the animosity and reading all the worst possible motives into my actions comes from.

I'd love for someone to shed some light on that for me. All I've ever done is love him and try to accommodate his quirks, because I understand some things are very important to him.

SnailPie

 

[SnailPie]

Thanks, Mia!

10 Rules for Friendly Fighting for Couples | Psych Central
I did read and print out this article. I'm going to see if we can "tweak" it to our specific needs. Funny thing is, I've read a lot and have tried to bring up Rules of Engagement like this. It's usually met with him telling me I'm trying to "educate him" and he finds it irritating. Because I guess there is nothing new for him to learn, because it's all me, of course! (Nope)

But I agree with everything they listed in the article. I'll give it another shot when things cool down...we had a super-huge blow out last night, even though I was trying my best.

I notice that I get to a point of being so accommodating that I just start to get frustrated and hurt by the lack of overt reciprocity. That is THE WORST TIME to try to talk to him about anything, I know, but I opened my mouth because he asked me "What is wrong?"
That is a trap!

Sometimes I think the best way to get along is to just do everything his way, not ever ask for anything different or for him to do something I'd like him to do for me. If I don't ever make waves, we get along great. But life can't work like that. There are things we need to deal with.
*sigh*

But I'm still trying...

 

[LucyPurrs]

Is he responding to you as if you were his ex instead of seeing you clearly?

 

[SnailPie]

Is he responding to you as if you were his ex instead of seeing you clearly?

Good question. I don't think so. They've been divorced many years, and she really ran him through the ringer. I think it's more...Habit?
Most of the women he's been involved with, as well as other important people in his life, have taken advantage of him or let him down in some major way.
I get the feeling though--he doesn't say this--that his AS "Issues" have come up more in his previous relationships than he wants to admit. It sounds like it comes from somewhere...back there...as if he's parroting complaints/words someone once used on him.

I wholeheartedly believe it is NOT malicious, but some unconscious knee-jerk thing for him to react this way.
Of course, I'm just a person, looking in from the outside.
I've asked him about this; he has no answer. If anything, he denies that he and ExW had these problems. But I can't see that there were no issues back then at all. Perhaps he is worse now because he's older and has lived alone for so long? I have no idea.

But stories he's told me about growing up, relationships, etc. all point to this having been a life-long problem. From what he's said though, it's always been the fault of everyone else that things go wrong.

 

[Mia]

From what he's said though, it's always been the fault of everyone else that things go wrong.

That is not good, it means that's (I'm certain that your well aware) he avoids doing the work required to consider his own behavior. Often, unaware of the effect of this on others.

Here's a suggestion, no more arguments, or discussions for the moment. It seems there is too much wounding going on. One small thing at a time, once a week in very clear language. Ask him to repeat it back, so there are no misunderstandings. Sometimes one word can mean one thing to you and something to someone else. Give him time to think about it, don't discuss it right away. Aspies have difficulty at times with cognition and processing and they need time to sort it all out. They also hate conflict of any kind.

Be very clear, as you are being here. No veering off or letting yourself become derailed by things said, no personal attacks. Stick with the subject, but I am sorry to say, there won't be any complete solutions, no matter how hard you try. Better to compromise a little and work toward a fair and equitable solution. One that benefits both of you. Don't show your emotions during the discussion.

 

[SnailPie]

That is not good, it means that's (I'm certain that your well aware) he avoids doing the work required to consider his own behavior. Often, unaware of the effect of this on others.

Here's a suggestion, no more arguments, or discussions for the moment. It seems there is too much wounding going on. One small thing at a time, once a week in very clear language. Ask him to repeat it back, so there are no misunderstandings. Sometimes one word can mean one thing to you and something to someone else. Give him time to think about it, don't discuss it right away. Aspies have difficulty at times with cognition and processing and they need time to sort it all out. They also hate conflict of any kind.

Be very clear, as you are being here. No veering off or letting yourself become derailed by things said, no personal attacks. Stick with the subject, but I am sorry to say, there won't be any solutions, no matter how hard you try. Better to compromise a little and work toward a fair and equitable solution. One that benefits both of you. Don't show your emotions during the discussion.

Thanks, Mia!
You gave me some excellent suggestions and I will be using them.
The most important one being--give everything a rest for a few weeks to let it all calm down. We do have some important pressing issues to discuss, but I think I might be able to stall a bit.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Mia]

Thanks, Mia!
You gave me some excellent suggestions and I will be using them.

Your welcome
Something I'd forgotten that worked very well, as we went through the argumentation for decades. When he/she says something that hurts you or belittles you, be very clear.

"That hurt, or that was cruel, or stop bullying me, or that was unkind." Then end the discussion, he/she needs to understand how this behavior makes you feel, period. Eventually, they'll understand. You make a statement of that sort, and leave it there, no backtracking or apologies. You stand by it as your truth, as he/she does with their own. Eventually, he/she will say when something hurts them. It's understanding what those things are, and being aware of them, that moves us towards healing.

I often had a quite difficult time pinpointing exactly why I was 'uncomfortable' and sometimes only realized it, much later. Not as aware of some of my feelings, as some people are.

 

[Bella Pines]

The problem isn't you.

The fact that you survived the betrayal of your ex and came out the other side means that you are incredibly strong and brave.

I have mentioned his possible AS to him in the past, but he reacted by being very "insulted" that I said such an awful thing to him

So he isn't ready. You must have had a lot of experiences with NT friends, where they won't face the blindingly obvious. It happens to me all the time, my mother won't accept her dementure, she makes excuses and blames me for not telling her things. My mother in law won't accept that she has martyr syndrome. etc etc.

Don't burst the bubble. He is not insulted, he is in denial, and he is happy being ignorant. Let it be. If he reaches out to you for help, be ready, but until then, he is what he is and it's unlikely that you can do anything about it.

Aspie communication is REALLY HARD. It took me 20 years to start communicating with my husband and even now I still forget. We have to sit down, think about what we want and ask for it, without listing the crimes of the other person. It's an ongoing challenge.

He isn't twisting things, he probable genuinely sees things in that way. You see things differently. There is no ultimate truth.

Can you give an example of a recent argument?

 

[Myway]

Hello and Welcome to AC. I hope you enjoy it.

 

[SnailPie]

The problem isn't you.

The fact that you survived the betrayal of your ex and came out the other side means that you are incredibly strong and brave.



So he isn't ready. You must have had a lot of experiences with NT friends, where they won't face the blindingly obvious. It happens to me all the time, my mother won't accept her dementure, she makes excuses and blames me for not telling her things. My mother in law won't accept that she has martyr syndrome. etc etc.

Don't burst the bubble. He is not insulted, he is in denial, and he is happy being ignorant. Let it be. If he reaches out to you for help, be ready, but until then, he is what he is and it's unlikely that you can do anything about it.

Aspie communication is REALLY HARD. It took me 20 years to start communicating with my husband and even now I still forget. We have to sit down, think about what we want and ask for it, without listing the crimes of the other person. It's an ongoing challenge.

He isn't twisting things, he probable genuinely sees things in that way. You see things differently. There is no ultimate truth.

Can you give an example of a recent argument?

Hi Bella, and thank you.

The argument two nights ago was a continuation of one that's been ongoing.

Of late he's starting to spend more and more time on the Internet, and coming to bed later and later. Now it's up to 2 AM and he's surfing Facebook.

We used to be much closer and couldn't wait to get into bed together (hint, hint!) Now it seems he's avoiding the entire thing and I feel very rejected and hurt by this. He also rejects any sexual advances I make towards him at other times, teasing me by saying "It's always SEX with you, hahah!" which always hurts. Like there's something wrong with me wanting to be close that way with him.
I'm not all over him all the time, but when it gets to be more than a week between encounters, well, I usually try to do something about it. I used to initiate all the time and he was very receptive. And he was the same.

Lately the only time we're intimate is when he finally comes to bed (after dealing with all of the "important" stuff online) and I'm already half asleep. I don't enjoy it nearly as much as when I'm awake! The other night he came to bed around 2, and woke me up at 3:30 for sex...and was disappointed when I wasn't super-enthusiastic. He also knew I'd had trouble falling asleep lately due to the stress. He did apologize for waking me and felt terrible. Almost feeling guilty, which for some reason was also "MY fault" for making him feel that way. Because I said something to the effect of "I'm sort of sleepy..." instead of being raring to go in the middle of sleep.
So I thought, "Maybe I can encourage him to come to bed earlier so we can enjoy each other more?" Seems logical to me!
So that's the back story.

It came up again a couple of nights ago, and I just went to bed alone. He saw me, sort of looking sad I guess (I was), and asked me "What's wrong?" I told him I was sad that he didn't seem to want to come to bed with me, but it was okay, I"d deal with it. (Paraphrasing here)

Well, Holy Hannah! It turned into a litany of how demanding I was, that I keep "starting fights" and he "Has a right to feel hurt by what I say" when I ask for something I need, that I was "criticizing him", and I kept trying to explain. It went on for HOURS. It took me an entire day to recover, and him too. I start shaking, shutting down, drinking tons of water, my blood sugar plummets, my blood pressure spikes (lately on meds for this), my head starts hurting, I feel like I'm going to faint. The sheer frustration has driven me almost mad. He gets so angry and SO COMPLETELY UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT I'M NOT THE ENEMY HERE! And he thinks it's ALL ME. Although he says be believes he plays "a small part" in this, I don't think he really believes that.
It hurts us both. We DO love each other, but this arguing is killing our relationship, and making us physically debilitated. It's BAD.

I have tried expressing my feelings about this issue many times; in a non-confrontational, positive way, like "I really like when we go to bed together and even just cuddle, do you think we might be able to do that a little more often?" No pressure...just a loving request.

I am then told that I need to "understand him" and he's busy doing work (which he often is, but does he have to keep doing it 18 hours a day?), and "lots of other times I give you what you ask for", which he sometimes does.
But the trend is him doing what he wants and me just having to put up or shut up.

When I try to get him to understand what I need and how I feel, he essentially argues with me that my reasoning is wrong, it's not a problem, (because HE doesn't need that--he used to--or he doesn't feel that way, so how can I?), I'm being demanding, on and on. And he literally cannot see why I'm not just cool with it. I'm "always unhappy" and "always asking for things". And some of that is true, because he doesn't give it unless I ASK. So I'm put in the position of having to ask---not "nag"--but request, politely. And if the answer is "No", which it often is, he sees no problem with the fact that his need trumps mine. I think it's unfair. But there is nothing I can do.

I simply don't know how to deal with it. He says if I can say it exactly "RIGHT" (whatever that is), he'll be open-minded. Not been my experience so far.


Any advice would be appreciated!


For now I am taking the suggestion to just give it a rest, which means stuffing my feelings down and not letting him see my unhappiness, and not dealing with some important financial issues/gig issues. But I can't do that forever, and I don't want a relationship where my feelings and needs aren't considered as important as his own. He will SAY that they are, but his behavior is often to the contrary.

Sorry for the long-winded reply. I don't know if it's an ADHD thing or not, but I'm terrible at self-editing and really good at verbal diarrhea. I always think if I explain more thoroughly, that I'll be understood better. I now know that's not the case!

 

[SnailPie]

I should add that he has said that constant fighting has made him not want to be close to me. Which I completely understand.

However, the fighting STARTED as a result of him pulling away, me protesting (by asking what's wrong, and asking for what I wanted) and him invalidating my concerns.


When we are not arguing we get along great and sex is great as well. But his tendency is to sort of focus on his special interests, which are also his work, and to put me as a last priority in terms of ACTIONS.

I mean, I know that I'm not a low priority for him, but in terms of where he puts his energy and efforts, I really am last on the list.

 

[Mia]

When I try to get him to understand what I need and how I feel, he essentially argues with me that my reasoning is wrong, it's not a problem,

Let's make something really clear here, the way you feel or your emotions are in no way to be criticized or discussed. If you feel an emotion you feel it, it's not up for questioning or criticism. It's sacrosanct and belongs to you, no discussion. Why you feel a certain way, is something that you should explore, no one else.

 

[SnailPie]

Let's make something really clear here, the way you feel or your emotions are in no way to be criticized or discussed. If you feel an emotion you feel it, it's not up for questioning or criticism. It's sacrosanct and belongs to you, no discussion. Why you feel a certain way, is something that you should explore, no one else.

Exactly. Which is what I am having great difficulty putting across.
He has admitted to not being able to deny my feelings being what they are. He'll just say that the REASONS for all of them are WRONG, the examples I give of the occasions upon which I feel that way are being "misremembered", that he "disagrees" that such-and-such is important, (because it's not important to HIM), that because he doesn't mean it personally means it shouldn't bother me at all... etc.

I have told him it's like he's shooting clay pigeons. Every time I throw something up there (a concern, a request, a need/desire) it's like he can't wait to shoot them down...blam! blam! blam!

I have used words like "invalidating how I feel". I have tried rephrasing. But his intent doesn't seem to be understanding what I'm trying to tell him, it's that he's trying to make sure my point of view holds no water whatsoever.
Because if it DID, it would mean MAYBE he needs to look at his own behavior and perhaps do something a bit differently (???)

And so he attempts to destroy my valid point of view with relentless point-by-point debates. And when that doesn't work on me, getting me to concede to his way of thinking, he gets very angry and frustrated.
He can't see that HE is the one escalating things. He thinks it's me, being "IMPOSSIBLE".

Well, sure.
I'm just not backing down when he blusters and "corrects" my thinking and take on things. I'm sure that's really hard for him to deal with!
I think he is used to controlling his previous partners this way, either that or they were sort of checked out (cheating, so I'm guessing yes) and really didn't ask much of him emotionally. They were getting their "needs met" elsewhere.
I am not that kind of person. I want that with HIM, not with someone else.

When I point out how he is invaliding my point of view with the gas lighting, blame-shifting, manipulative roundabout non-logic, deflecting and denials...he argues with that too! (Have I said he's really smart and super verbal? He can go on for hours and I've said if he put 1/4 the energy he puts into deflecting into trying to work WITH me instead of against me, we'd be so much happier. Which he argues with as well....grrrrrrr.....)

We often escalate because he points out the specific word I used which wasn't the EXACT word HE used and so round and around we go. He might have said "Rigid" , and I quoted him as saying "Strict". Which devolves into a side-argument about how I 'Don't listen to him" and not about my initial issue!

Can you see how utterly infuriating and frustrating this can be?

 

[Mia]

Yes, I've been through it myself. It's how I learned argumentation. The pointing out of a word is derailment of the argument, to give the other person time to come up with something. It's often used in discussion to veer off or avoid the subject matter.

Another often used technique, is to argue endlessly until the other person gives up, or has some sort of meltdown. Making you feel something like anger or rage, or making you cry, will somehow seem a victory to the other party.

Something else that will seem frustrating to the other argumentative party, is to agree to disagree. Where no one is wrong or right. That, is the end of the discussion.

He'll just say that the REASONS for all of them are WRONG,

The reasons behind the emotions are yours alone, they are a compendium of background and experiences. There is no wrong.

When it all segues to personal attack of your character, that's when it becomes an abusive fallacy, it's a cheap device. They shift the 'burden of proof' to you, as in 'I have no need to prove anything', you must prove what you say. Turn it around.

 

[SnailPie]

Mia, you've hit the nail on the head. My ex-NT husband was extremely verbally manipulative and covert-aggressive to boot. So I do get triggered when I am subjected to defensive machinations. I can see exactly what he's doing, but when I point out that I can tell he's derailing things, he gets even more angry, accuses me of accusing HIM of manipulating me, and around and around we go.

He can manage all this while seemingly logical and rational. His obvious anger is re-labeled by him as "frustration" at the "FACT" that I am not listening to nor hearing him, that I am "picking fights" and "seeing problems where there aren't any", and that I just won't "let it go". He will use any verbal means to completely derail whatever it is I wanted to say, and these are things that are IMPORTANT.

He won't attack character, call names, scream, etc. and neither will I. What we're feeling is the complete frustration in not seeing eye-to-eye. I have a problem and want him to understand and help me with it, and he wants that problem to go away so he doesn't have to change or deal with it.
That said, he is super helpful and supportive if my problems have nothing to do with him personally. He is a great listener and very loving. It's when I ask anything of him that's the least bit out of his comfort zone, look out. Because I'm automatically out of line, I guess.

Thanks for your responses. I do appreciate you taking the time to add your insight!

 

[SnailPie]

Oh, and usually it all ends when I break down in tears, leave the room, curl into a ball somewhere. When I'm promptly accused of "walking out" instead of trying to preserve my sanity. It's really HIM that can't let it go until I acknowledge that he's right and I'm wrong. And that tends to make ME look like an unstable, overly-emotional, needy ball of jelly. Which I am NOT.

Then I'M called "competitive". It's so much projection on his part.
At the end, I END UP APOLOGIZING in order to bring back some kind of peace. I try to own my own reactions. He usually says he "has nothing to apologize for."

 

[Mia]

He usually says he "has nothing to apologize for."

Ouch, you should be very clear about that one. You said this, and as a result I felt this. You need to apologize. Give it time, and space.

Another thing to keep in mind, you wouldn't be arguing if you didn't care about one another.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

He hears criticism/personal attacks when there are none.
He can interpret the most benign, even thoughtful/caring gesture or comment into some type of negative.

I'm also a person who fits your words in bold. They fit me less than they used to.

Im trying to figure out how i made the change.

I have actually done something respectful and loving, and had him get very angry and go on the offensive because he completely misunderstood my intent.

I get very defensive and go quiet. Misundersyand intent, but mine is also misunderstood.

Im stuck on this. I feel imshould be able to help here.. mm have to think a little

 

[SnailPie]

I'm also a person who fits your words in bold. They fit me less than they used to.

Im trying to figure out how i made the change.



I get very defensive and go quiet. Misundersyand intent, but mine is also misunderstood.

Im stuck on this. I feel imshould be able to help here.. mm have to think a little

I like your name, Fridgemagnetman!

I have quite a collection of fridge magnets, myself. Ex-NT husband hated them, new Aspie guy has so many of his own that there's not much room for mine... :/

If you can give some thought as to how you managed to react less defensively, I'm all ears!

On my side of the problem, I misunderstand him as well, often.
Mostly I misread his INTENT, not his words. I think I am looking for more underlying body language/intonation that supports his words, and that is sometimes missing.
For me I think it's just that he says and does things that--in my experience, mostly with NTs---usually MEAN a specific thing, and so I *assume* he does too.

That...doesn't work.

Also, as an Aspie myself, sometimes my words don't necessarily match my tone of voice or body language. I have to be really careful. My voice can come off as abrupt and loud/deep, it's my normal tone of voice. I can soften it though, if I remember to. No doubt that's what he's reacting to as well. But it's not a problem if everything is peachy at the time we're talking.

And yes, we would not be arguing if we didn't care about each other.
I'm SURE we both would have walked away long ago if we weren't committed. Most of the time, we get along great and it's really almost dreamy how lovely spending time together can be. It's those few times when things go terribly wrong that are the problem. We both see THAT the same way, at least!