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INTJ & Aspie or just INTJ ?

LucyPurrs said:
what does the "K" stand for?
And I forgot to say that my friend told me it was "annoying" for me to say the three words because it felt like I was trying to convince him of it.
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Hmmm. I never had that particular sentiment about it myself. They were just words that for whatever reason I chose to seldom use. Perhaps at the time I was worried about my g/f becoming too clingy as a result. I'm not sure. Though I do know I ultimately lost a relationship over the issue when I didn't say it when I should have, according to my then NT g/f.

Yet I've also always looked back on it as entirely my fault. I can only say that sometimes if I'm pushed too much in a direction I don't want to go, it can and has ended badly.

Though for myself, this remains one issue where self-awareness has taught me to alter such behavior for future reference. Even if I don't understand or feel something in the same way at the same time, I've come to recognize how important it may be for NTs. That it can be a "deal-breaker" for them.
 
Judge said:
Hmmm. I never had that particular sentiment about it myself. They were just words that for whatever reason I chose to seldom use. Perhaps at the time I was worried about my g/f becoming too clingy as a result. I'm not sure. Though I do know I ultimately lost a relationship over the issue when I didn't say it when I should have, according to my then NT g/f.

Yet I've also always looked back on it as entirely my fault. I can only say that sometimes if I'm pushed too much in a direction I don't want to go, it can and has ended badly.

Though for myself, this remains one issue where self-awareness has taught me to alter such behavior for future reference. Even if I don't understand or feel something in the same way at the same time, I've come to recognize how important it may be for NTs. That it can be a "deal-breaker" for them.
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Thanks for your response Judge. It's not a deal breaker for me, he has already said I love you more than once and now I know he does and nothing has changed. He's also sent me a very loving song. He just doesn't understand that women need to express their feelings more than guys (I think) and he was kind of misinterpreting my intent which was to be loving and not to convince him of anything. He shows love more by acts of service and I understand that. I'm not asking he change- I love him the way he is. I will be willing to change as I need to and am able to, to keep this relationship going because he values me for me. At least I imagine he does- why else would he keep in close contact for 30 months?
 
LucyPurrs said:
He just doesn't understand that women need to express their feelings more than guys (I think) and he was kind of misinterpreting my intent which was to be loving and not to convince him of anything.
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Makes sense to me. ;)

LOL...at this point perhaps we should merge the "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" thread. Same concerns seem to be involved. :p
 
I've done a lot of research on the INTJ personality type and Asperger's especially because I identify myself as both. Like autism, personality is as much a spectrum of its own. MBTI isn't a personality diagnosis test. It's not as black and white as seems. It's not a box that you're supposed to conform to. It's a general description of the dominant inner and outer person. Yes, MBTI is created by people, who happened to be flawed. But you don't have to take the descriptions word for word, so specifically, or literally; you get a general understanding and then adapt that understanding according to the individual, not people as a whole. This is just my opinion. I mean no disrespect toward anyone's opinion regarding MBTI.

Okay, so the thing about INTJs and aspies is that the way they come across is very similar to each other. Both tend to focus much time and energy on one or a few intense interests and/or hobbies. Both are highly analytical. Both need much time to be alone. Both tend to be socially clueless. Both are highly sensitive to their surroundings. Both tend to have a rich vocabulary. Both tend to be emotionally reserved, unaffectionate, and very emotionally inexpressive. Both place a high value on logic. But here's where it starts to get really interesting: the two differ by the underlying reasons for why they are the way they are. Ultimately it comes down to the way they think. INTJ is purely personality. Asperger's is an impairment within the brain.

Consider the fictional character Sherlock, a neurotypical INTJ. Extremely high problem-solving ability, a relentless intellect, indisputable deductive reasoning, and (BBC Sherlock) has little/no regard for people's feelings. Okay, so how do we know that he is not an aspie? 1. He deliberately chooses to ignore people's feelings (with maybe the exception of people he aggressively cares about). He doesn't ignore people's feelings because he can't express empathy or understand their feelings, whereas this is the case with many aspies; 2. He has no difficulty with social communication and he doesn't miss non-verbal cues. He doesn't talk to everyone. But he could if he wanted to. It doesn't stem from social impairment. 3. He is able to see things from many perspectives. And he doesn't see the world as being black and white; he knows things are not that simple. If it was, anyone would be able to be a Sherlock. Actually, his thinking is more flexible than his neurotypical peers. This is the reason for his remarkable ability to problem solve; 4. sensory processing is not an issue for him.

Depending on how high functioning an INTJ aspie may be, he/she may or may not take things literally just because INTJs think in terms of symbols, images, pictures, metaphors, and excel in abstract thinking.

So, how do you know if an INTJ is an aspie? Well, he/she will have one or more of these characteristics of Asperger's: sensory processing, social communication, flexibility of mind, and social interaction difficulties. It is a little tricky to identify in INTJs because out of all the MBTI types, INTJs are perhaps most similar to aspies. For me being an INTJ and aspie, I find that my aspie characteristics are more heavily defined. For example: an aspie INTJ may be more clumsy/less coordinated than other people; they may lack some normal motor skills. Personally, I notice that I am a lot more emotionally sensitive and prone to weeping than other INTJs despite having a lens of hard logic and reason. I find that some textures are stressful to the touch and some types of light are nearly impossible to look at. I can't filter out the sounds around me even though I hide the fact that they bother me (and I've built up a tolerance for what I can handle without breaking). These, among other things, are signs of Asperger's in an INTJ. But my main point is that an aspie INTJ struggles in life more than an INTJ without Asperger's because of the social impairment. I hope this helps.
 
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Pondering said:
I've done a lot of research on the INTJ personality type and Asperger's especially because I identify myself as both. Like autism, personality is as much a spectrum of its own. MBTI isn't a personality diagnosis test. It's not as black and white as seems. It's not a box that you're supposed to conform to. It's a general description of the dominant inner and outer person. Yes, MBTI is created by people, who happened to be flawed. But you don't have to take the descriptions word for word, so specifically, or literally; you get a general understanding and then adapt that understanding according to the individual, not people as a whole. This is just my opinion. I mean no disrespect toward anyone's opinion regarding MBTI.

Okay, so the thing about INTJs and aspies is that the way they come across is very similar to each other. Both tend to focus much time and energy on one or a few intense interests and/or hobbies. Both are highly analytical. Both need much time to be alone. Both tend to be socially clueless. Both are highly sensitive to their surroundings. Both tend to have a rich vocabulary. Both tend to be emotionally reserved, affectionate, and very emotionally inexpressive. Both place a high value on logic. But here's where it starts to get really interesting: the two differ by the underlying reasons for why they are the way they are. Ultimately it comes down to the way they think. INTJ is purely personality. Asperger's is an impairment within the brain.

Consider the fictional character Sherlock, a neurotypical INTJ. Extremely high problem-solving skills, a relentless intellect, indisputable deductive reasoning, and (BBC Sherlock) has little/no regard for people's feelings. Okay, so how do we know that he is not an aspie? 1. He deliberately chooses to ignore people's feelings (with maybe the exception of people he aggressively cares about). He doesn't ignore people's feelings because he can't express empathy or understand their feelings, whereas this is the case with many aspies; 2. He has no difficulty with social communication and he doesn't miss non-verbal cues. He doesn't talk to everyone. But he could if he wanted to. It doesn't stem from social impairment. 3. He is able to see things from many perspectives. And he doesn't see the world as being black and white; he knows things are not that simple. If it was, anyone would be able to be a Sherlock. Actually, his thinking is more flexible than his neurotypical peers. This is the reason for his remarkable ability to problem solve; 4. sensory processing is not an issue for him.

Depending on how high functioning an INTJ aspie may be, he/she may or may not take things literally just because INTJs think in terms of symbols, images, pictures, metaphors, and excel in abstract thinking.

So, how do you know if an INTJ is an aspie? Well, he/she will have one or more of these characteristics of Asperger's: sensory processing, social communication, flexibility of mind, and social interaction difficulties. It is a little tricky to identify in INTJs because out of all the MBTI types, INTJs are perhaps most similar to aspies. For me being an INTJ and aspie, I find that my aspie characteristics are more heavily defined. For example: an aspie INTJ may be more clumsy/less coordinated than other people; they may lack some normal motor skills. Personally, I notice that I am a lot more emotionally sensitive and prone to weeping than other INTJs despite having a lens of hard logic and reason. I find that some textures are stressful to the touch and some types of light are nearly impossible to look at. I can't filter out the sounds around me even though I hide the fact that they bother me (and I've built up a tolerance for what I can handle without breaking). These, among other things, are signs of Asperger's in an INTJ. But my main point is that an aspie INTJ struggles in life more than an INTJ without Asperger's because of the social impairment. I hope this helps.
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Yup, very helpful. This is exactly what I was trying to sort out. I'm not taking the INTJ literally but as a framework for understanding my friend better just like taking info about ASD as a framework for understanding. Thank you so much for your response. I think as long as I can keep trying to understand and further appreciate him that's what is important.
 
I am a primary care psychologist who performs psychodiagnostic testing. One common trend I have observed recently is highly intelligent people being misdiagnosed with ASD due to social difficulties. You described him as very intelligent. People with legitimately high intelligence frequently have social difficulties that resemble ASD. Consider the following: The average IQ score is 100 (range 91-109). Scores at 70 or below (up to 75 with margin of error) qualify an individual for a mild intellectual disability. So the difference in measurable IQ between average intelligence and a mild intellectual disability (previously called mild mental retardation) is about 30 points. That means that if someone has an IQ of, say, 130, the difference in intellectual functioning between that person and an intellectually average person (which is, statistically speaking, most people) is roughly the same as the difference between an intellectually average person and a person with a mild intellectual disability. Can you imagine what your social life and your ability to form close, meaningful relationships with others would be like if most people around you were intellectually disabled? That feeling of "I don't belong" or "there's no one like me" that is common with high functioning ASD is also common among the intellectually gifted, because in many ways, it is accurate.

So, I can't say if he does or does not have ASD, and obviously ASD and high intellect are far from mutually exclusive, but he sounds like a lot of people I've worked with in the past who I eventually determined did not have ASD and had mild/moderate social impairment due to heightened intellectual abilities.
 
CWard12213 said:
I am a primary care psychologist who performs psychodiagnostic testing. One common trend I have observed recently is highly intelligent people being misdiagnosed with ASD due to social difficulties. You described him as very intelligent. People with legitimately high intelligence frequently have social difficulties that resemble ASD. Consider the following: The average IQ score is 100 (range 91-109). Scores at 70 or below (up to 75 with margin of error) qualify an individual for a mild intellectual disability. So the difference in measurable IQ between average intelligence and a mild intellectual disability (previously called mild mental retardation) is about 30 points. That means that if someone has an IQ of, say, 130, the difference in intellectual functioning between that person and an intellectually average person (which is, statistically speaking, most people) is roughly the same as the difference between an intellectually average person and a person with a mild intellectual disability. Can you imagine what your social life and your ability to form close, meaningful relationships with others would be like if most people around you were intellectually disabled? That feeling of "I don't belong" or "there's no one like me" that is common with high functioning ASD is also common among the intellectually gifted, because in many ways, it is accurate.

So, I can't say if he does or does not have ASD, and obviously ASD and high intellect are far from mutually exclusive, but he sounds like a lot of people I've worked with in the past who I eventually determined did not have ASD and had mild/moderate social impairment due to heightened intellectual abilities.
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I don't disagree but he also has heightened sensory issues (sound and smell) similar to aspies, problems reading non verbal behavior & facial expressions, and he can't always tell when I'm joking with him. He finds talking exhausting and so is a "mostly silent " individual. Those were the things that made me wonder if he had both INTJ & Aspie stuff going on, and wasn't just an INTJ. He clearly has some special abilities too & his brain works kind of like a computer. I suspect his IQ is significantly above 130. Your point is well taken. I'm not really looking for a diagnosis but do want to understand him as best I can.
 
LucyPurrs said:
I don't disagree but he also has heightened sensory issues (sound and smell) similar to aspies, problems reading non verbal behavior & facial expressions, and he can't always tell when I'm joking with him. He finds talking exhausting and so is a "mostly silent " individual. Those were the things that made me wonder if he had both INTJ & Aspie stuff going on, and wasn't just an INTJ. He clearly has some special abilities too & his brain works kind of like a computer. I suspect his IQ is significantly above 130. Your point is well taken. I'm not really looking for a diagnosis but do want to understand him as best I can.
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Some of the social difficulty could also be simply lack of practice. He sounds extremely introverted and generally isolated. Basic social skills (speech, hearing, eye contact) are inherent for most people, but advanced social skills (interpreting nonverbal and other subtle/implied cues) are just that, skills, which come from practice. If you don't use them frequently they may not develop fully or may atrophy. If someone lives a highly sedentary lifestyle they likely have relatively low physical abilities, but that doesn't necessarily suggest a chronic medical issue that requires treatment. Again, I'm not saying he doesn't have ASD, but from what you've shared I would be hesitant to diagnose him if I were his provider.

With regard to the sensory issues, do you believe he has anxiety? There is more and more research suggesting a major overlap between anxiety and non-ASD sensory issues, particularly sound sensitivity (misophonia).

Misophonia: Like Nails on a Chalkboard | Anxiety and Depression Association of America, ADAA
 
@CWard :I think he sometimes has anxiety but am not sure to what extent or degree. Again, I'm not asking the forum for a diagnosis- that would be ridiculous. More like could he be ASD with this picture? At this point I'm not sure if I even need that much. You may not know but my relationship has been entirely over the internet- he lives overseas and we have never met in person but hope to do so. Once that happens I'm hoping it will give me some fill in the blanks kind of info. Mostly I just want to be the best I can be for him in all ways.
 
CWard12213 said:
People with legitimately high intelligence frequently have social difficulties that resemble ASD.
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Fascinating. As a gifted child with a high IQ, my social difficulties were attributed to my having trouble finding people who wanted to talk about what interested me.
 
INTJs have Se (extroverted sensing) as their inferior function, which makes them much more sensitive to sights, smells, and sounds than other personality types, and prone to over-stimulation. It makes them aspie-like, even if they do not have Asperger's.
 
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Pondering said:
INTJs have Se (extroverted sensing) as their inferior function, which makes them much more sensitive to sights and sounds than other personality types. It makes them aspie-like, even if they do not have Asperger's.
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Oh that's very interesting thanks!
 
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