Isn't this a space for sometimes difficult discussion?

[Gerald Wilgus]

I continue to find that dissecting yourself into boxes of masculine and feminine is a pointless exercise in validation seeking. I understand that it is society that pushes this logic initially with its constant judgment, but you have a personal responsibility to not keep affirming it as doing so publicly is what keeps the wheels turning

Gender roles and other similar prisons of identity ultimately just turn you into commodity, it's no way to look at a real person. You are not some puppet born from your biological sex and lineage. There is no necessary overlap between you and a sibling that grew up with the same sex and lineage. It's just convenient nonsense to avoid having to conceptualize other people as full human beings rather than easily digestible caricatures (which is what an identity is, a caricature). Being attached to a certain identity will only cause you to dislike or hide parts of yourself from yourself or others. It can only be an intermediate step in growth. It's not a healthy way to be indefinitely.
I believe even without understanding this explicitly, many people abandon their identities as they grow up and become just themselves.

I disagree. I have seen too many man-children caught up in the brainwashing of the male identity. They will never be just themselves and may just become caricatures of 'da guy'. You are far too young and in the wrong place to have experienced the US in the 1950s. There was unremitting brainwashing for gender roles and nationalism, in movies, in popular culture, from religious figures, from those in authority. Unless one was fortunate, education was done merely to create functional workers. And, in the Baby boom there was competition and a scramble for resources. The unlucky ones, like me, were provided an object lesson in scarcity. Things are not as simplistic as you pose.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Years's ago (40) become aware of some information which I thought was a bit of a stretch, now over the years studies have been done that seems to support, the study is how much testosterone you were exposed to in the womb can be determined by the ratio of your index finger vs the ring finger irrespective of sex my ring finger is significantly longer than my ring finger.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I also like these kinds of conversations, even though I don't have much time to participate and as hetero as well. I'm female but a lot of my outward behavior and mannerisms tend be more masculine which I think confuses people. But I do enjoy reading everyone's thoughts and experiences here and look forward to more.

I am not confused by a strong woman. A couple of them were my managers. I made them proud that they hired me.

 

[Lysholm]

l enjoy the feminine side of men

And I enjoy the powerful side of women. Big shoulders and lats or just an assertive woman is super appealing to my reptilian brain. Not in a power exchange way - hard to explain. I've never been attracted to fawning and ass-shaking...but these still work on me. Go figs, yo.

I don't know where else I could bring this up and not get shunned.

 

[Forest Cat]

I am not confused by a strong woman. A couple of them were my managers. I made them proud that they hired me.

I grew up with Norwegian women so strong women is nothing new to me. I have a sister and she can be terrifying. It became clear in kindergarten that you don't mess with the women here.

 

[Aspychata]

I grew up with Norwegian women so strong women is nothing new to me. I have a sister and she can be terrifying. It became clear in kindergarten that you don't mess with the women here.

Nordic she powerhouse fjordblasts.
I have gone threw a lot of crappy things in life. I attest my longevity to my Nordic, and Germanic roots, which keep me plowing into the wilderness of civilization.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I like being able to discuss things that society frowns on. For instance, l enjoy the feminine side of men, and quite dislike macho men.

If only had I known that women like you existed. I realized that quite late, and recognized that I did not act to give them a choice. (I am so very sorry) So, I was extremely lucky to meet an accepting woman with a soft spot for things I was good at, and who liked the quirky, sensitive, me.

 

[Misery]

caught up in the brainwashing of the male identity

Yeah, this always bugged me, even back then (not that I knew why at the time), though I tended to push back against it. My upbringing though (in terms of how my parents handled me) was a bit different though.

I was a timid child (unless irritated enough) and made it very bloody clear right from an early age that I could not have cared less about being physically strong or anything like that. Instead, I tended to just be spiteful. I actually remember one incident during gym class or whatever you might call it these days, where we were doing some bloody stupid football thing (American football) and as usual I refused to do anything, because heck with it, I didnt want to. Hated that nonsense. Ball landed near me randomly and I simply booted it as hard as I could in a random direction and refused to elaborate from there. Didnt say a word and just wandered off afterwards. I'll never, ever forget that moment. Most of school was monotonous and unmemorable, but that, that was different. Remember it like it was yesterday.

Despite this though, nobody ever actually pushed me in any specific direction, despite what my gender was thought to be at the time. It was clear that my personality didnt match all the physical stuff and also clear that it simply wouldnt work, so... nobody did. The teacher/coach running things was a really nice guy, and I actually ended up just walking around the track every day when the other kids were crashing into each other or whatever passed for "sports" in their eyes. It was technically exercise, after all (and indeed, eventually I'd become a proficient hiker with a tendency to wander into forests with broken paths). This also eventually led to a strange situation where I carried a golf club everywhere in school (it made sense in context) but that's another story.

In a way, I suppose it was a different type of strength, that absolute, unbreaking refusal to perform some arbitrary activity, but a type of strength that had nothing whatsoever to do with gender or any sort of... mental programming.

And it's all so freaking arbitrary to begin with. It was like, "boy = football, girl = cooking", some idiocy of that type.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, it made sense when I started typing it.

Unless one was fortunate, education was done merely to create functional workers

I can tell you from experience, that at least around here, it wasnt any different for the financially lucky ones. School was school, and conforming for eventual jobs was all they cared about. And this was in the late 90s (I graduated in 2000).

fjorgblasts

Is this an actual word or a keyboard mistake?

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, it made sense when I started typing it.

I see. I got a lot of slack from academic and intellectual successes, but I was never a blindly confident male. When sex became important I was jealous of them, but no more because I've accomplished a lot in my life when others had only seen my apparent limitations.

 

[Aspychata]

Yeah, this always bugged me, even back then (not that I knew why at the time), though I tended to push back against it. My upbringing though (in terms of how my parents handled me) was a bit different though.

I was a timid child (unless irritated enough) and made it very bloody clear right from an early age that I could not have cared less about being physically strong or anything like that. Instead, I tended to just be spiteful. I actually remember one incident during gym class or whatever you might call it these days, where we were doing some bloody stupid football thing (American football) and as usual I refused to do anything, because heck with it, I didnt want to. Hated that nonsense. Ball landed near me randomly and I simply booted it as hard as I could in a random direction and refused to elaborate from there. Didnt say a word and just wandered off afterwards. I'll never, ever forget that moment. Most of school was monotonous and unmemorable, but that, that was different. Remember it like it was yesterday.

Despite this though, nobody ever actually pushed me in any specific direction, despite what my gender was thought to be at the time. It was clear that my personality didnt match all the physical stuff and also clear that it simply wouldnt work, so... nobody did. The teacher/coach running things was a really nice guy, and I actually ended up just walking around the track every day when the other kids were crashing into each other or whatever passed for "sports" in their eyes. It was technically exercise, after all (and indeed, eventually I'd become a proficient hiker with a tendency to wander into forests with broken paths). This also eventually led to a strange situation where I carried a golf club everywhere in school (it made sense in context) but that's another story.

In a way, I suppose it was a different type of strength, that absolute, unbreaking refusal to perform some arbitrary activity, but a type of strength that had nothing whatsoever to do with gender or any sort of... mental programming.

And it's all so freaking arbitrary to begin with. It was like, "boy = football, girl = cooking", some idiocy of that type.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, it made sense when I started typing it.



I can tell you from experience, that at least around here, it wasnt any different for the financially lucky ones. School was school, and conforming for eventual jobs was all they cared about. And this was in the late 90s (I graduated in 2000).



Is this an actual word or a keyboard mistake?

I like making up new words, a wordsmith conquering new ideas.

 

[Knower of nothing]

I disagree. I have seen too many man-children caught up in the brainwashing of the male identity. They will never be just themselves and may just become caricatures of 'da guy'. You are far too young and in the wrong place to have experienced the US in the 1950s. There was unremitting brainwashing for gender roles and nationalism, in movies, in popular culture, from religious figures, from those in authority. Unless one was fortunate, education was done merely to create functional workers. And, in the Baby boom there was competition and a scramble for resources. The unlucky ones, like me, were provided an object lesson in scarcity. Things are not as simplistic as you pose.

You misunderstand me. All you mention here is cases of identity poisoning mindsets. Which is exactly what I warn against. It's unhealthy to be attached to these things and makes you an easy target for manipulation as society can demand things of you by making you think it's something you want for yourself THROUGH your desire to fit an identity. A curse of a false self-image if you ask me.

 

[Thinx]

Yes the content of gender roles is socially constructed mostly, I think that's what @Knower of nothing was getting at, partly, how fulfilling the required role may mean we fit the norms, but not allow us to express or be all of ourselves. I remember feeling stumped by the issues as a child, why I had to sit in a room trying to stitch a grubby cross stitch pattern with the girls, while the boys played rounders in the playground. I was useless at rounders too, I might add. I just couldn't see why I was in the girl group, when it seemed to have nothing to do with my abilities or strengths. The boy group either.

 

[Markness]

One thing that has bothered me a little in the past years is that being a man seems to have been twisted into something negative. For example the phrase toxic masculinity. It's just a little upsetting, you're born a man, you grow up a man and then you have people telling you that who and what you are is wrong. How can it be wrong when we are born that way. It's not nice and people seem to expect us to just swallow it and accept it. Men are often masculine, that's just nature. It's not something men did or chose. I just think it's not nice.

There’s also a difference being masculine and being “macho.” Society is forgetting about that.

 

[Au Naturel]

I recognize how much our ASD has filtered our life experiences to make us who we are. I have been quite frank here and have received much help that I have followed up with my therapist. For most of us, we are behind the 8-ball socially and I enjoy the discussions of who we are, as hard as that may be at times.

As a teen and young adult, I was socially and sexually isolated and that impacted me negatively (PTSD), so I am interested in how we form our gender values. While I am heteronormal, my experiences have led me to be a little feminine in my outlook. As I explained, some old values of looking for external validation continues to interfere with my happiness as my sensibility in being desired revolved around acceptance and giving rather than the domination that propaganda for my gender role said I should value. I like that I am a more sensitive male and make no excuses for my being.

I have received such great help here and hope that continues.

Sometimes I wished I were female, but none when I thought I might be female. Maybe I was female in my previous life? There's a difference.

There are such things as typical male and female traits. All that means is that if you are female, you are statistically a bit more likely to think/feel/do X and a similar argument for males and Y. Think of it as two overlapping bell curves. The medians may be close, and there is a lot of overlap in the body, but the tails are as far apart. Defining gender by the tails is lazy thinking.

There's a really good discussion of this at:

Are women and men different? - Cakeworld

Because humans are incredibly lazy and want to stick everything into a pigeonhole, we take an invalid shortcut to make life easier for the bean counters. You are hereby officially confined to your box. Loosening up those definitions is incredibly frightening to someone who has built their life upon them. Someone else who feels imprisoned in a box takes it to the opposite extreme and angrily insists that no differences exist. And some people will take either extreme position for the sale of political correctness.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Sometimes I wished I were female, but none when I thought I might be female. Maybe I was female in my previous life? There's a difference.

There are such things as typical male and female traits. All that means is that if you are female, you are statistically a bit more likely to think/feel/do X and a similar argument for males and Y. Think of it as two overlapping bell curves. The medians may be close, and there is a lot of overlap in the body, but the tails are as far apart. Defining gender by the tails is lazy thinking.

There's a really good discussion of this at:

Are women and men different? - Cakeworld

Because humans are incredibly lazy and want to stick everything into a pigeonhole, we take an invalid shortcut to make life easier for the bean counters. You are hereby officially confined to your box. Loosening up those definitions is incredibly frightening to someone who has built their life upon them. Someone else who feels imprisoned in a box takes it to the opposite extreme and angrily insists that no differences exist. And some people will take either extreme position for the sale of political correctness.

if you look at it from the perspective of quantum mechanics, the labels go away. Simple continuums. This is why absolute length cannot exist and the universe is one big fractal.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

You misunderstand me. All you mention here is cases of identity poisoning mindsets. Which is exactly what I warn against. It's unhealthy to be attached to these things and makes you an easy target for manipulation as society can demand things of you by making you think it's something you want for yourself THROUGH your desire to fit an identity. A curse of a false self-image if you ask me.

I understand your warning. I identify ways of enforcement that a society uses to ensure that a majority believe as they are told. And few escape to find their own way. And I'd bet that those finding their own way are those marginalized by the dominant paradigms.

And I also am pointing out that most people that I have seen follow their societal stereotypes and do not change as adults.

 

[Outdated]

I grew up with Norwegian women so strong women is nothing new to me. I have a sister and she can be terrifying. It became clear in kindergarten that you don't mess with the women here.

Reminds me of my sister, five foot nothing and usually opens with a headbutt. She always had a violent streak but in primary school she learnt that if you beat up bullies you don't get in to trouble, instead you get praised for looking after the little ones.

Even today she can be a bit of a terror if she's had a few drinks.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

There’s also a difference being masculine and being “macho.” Society is forgetting about that.

So right. You remember the hilarious SNL skits, Quien Es Mas Macho? I enjoy being masculine and you will never mistake me for being macho. I like myself the way I am.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

And I enjoy the powerful side of women. Big shoulders and lats or just an assertive woman is super appealing to my reptilian brain. Not in a power exchange way - hard to explain. I've never been attracted to fawning and ass-shaking...but these still work on me. Go figs, yo.

I don't know where else I could bring this up and not get shunned.

I am not fond of timid daddy's girls. Wouldn't you know it, my spouse and I were the firstborn in our families. We butt heads, but work things out. It is like Star Trek. She has ideas and I channel Scottie, have 50 reasons why they won't work out, but I get it done anyway.

 

[Knower of nothing]

I understand your warning. I identify ways of enforcement that a society uses to ensure that a majority believe as they are told. And few escape to find their own way. And I'd bet that those finding their own way are those marginalized by the dominant paradigms.

It definitely tends to play out this way. Yet a way to improve this situation is no longer affirming the system, refuse it its status as a social value. Don't play along, make the wheels turn just a bit more awkwardly.