my aspie friend won't change

[Suzanne]

Yes, she does live for herself, but isn't that kind of selfish? She expects everyone to put up with her issues, yet she never works on helping herself. Much like a hospital patient who expects everyone to pander to them but they purposely refuse medication. I would be fine with the problems that come with having an aspie friend, but I'm not fine with knowing she isn't even doing anything to help herself. She just expects everyone to give her special treatment. All. the. time. Everything is always on her terms, to make her comfortable. She can't even try to help herself out a little to help us??? How is that fair at all?

As for the prayer, I googled it. It says:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.​

But is that really what this is? She seems to only be accepting everything with no thought to changing what she can. It's like she simply can't be bothered because it's too hard. I feel like the quote:

"In life you always have a choice. Sometimes it's easier to think that you don't," ​

is more like her. I feel like she is so afraid of change that she made herself believe she had no choice and that "that's just the way I am." At this point, I don't even know what's going on with her anymore. I NEED to understand where she's coming from. The issue I'm having with this is that I can't just stand by and watch a friend not help themselves. How can I see this in a different light? What am I missing? How is it okay to let her keep living like that, with that terrible mindset? I feel like it's not morally correct, especially since not everyone who needs help knows they need help/want help.

I so agree with you!!!

 

[Ylva]

Pretty sure we don't have the whole story, Suzanne.

 

[Progster]

Do you specifically mean that you'd like her to work on improving her anxiety and any other mental health issues she may have?

To follow on from this post, I think that if she is having mental health issues like anxiety and depression, then she can and should do something to change, but for her own benefit, not just for the benefit of other people. One can improve one's mood or mental health without compromising one's identity or altering who you are, and that's something you could try explaining to her. But initiative to change has to come from her, not from outside pressure. The more you pressure, the less likely she is to want to change.

One characteristic of having AS is a rigid midset and resistance to change, and if you want to understand your friend, this is what you have to understand. Suggest what I wrote earlier to her, but be careful to word it as a suggestion and not a criticism. Then back off. Let her think about it, and come to the conclusion that what you suggested is a good idea on her own.

 

[On the Inside]

Something Suzanne said rung a bell with me, about embracing anxiety. I had always been an anxious person, and yes, it was like a high. I was able to keep myself busy, I could exercise a few hours every day, I couldn't sleep for more than 5 or 6 hours a night, so I felt I had more time to do things, and I had more energy to do them. I could stay up all night to finish work that I had been putting off. It was OK when I was in my teens and twenties, but became a serious problem later on. Now that I have been treating anxiety, I am more relaxed, take a more measured approach to things, sleep about 8 or more hours (I need to) and feel a bit lazy, I've gained 8 pounds that doesn't seem to be going away.

Maybe your friend feels the same way about her anxiety. It can be "helpful" for a time, but it is still a problem, but she will have to arrive at that sense herself.

 

[Aspieistj]

Being on the Autism spectrum means the person is neurologically different form NTs. A person with Down Syndrome is different from those of us with normal IQs. Is if fair to demand that someone with Down Syndrome make themselves smarter? Differences in our genetics and brain development aren't something we can change. Can you make yourself retarded? Stop asking people who are differently wired to conform to your "norm."

 

[BIMOG]

Accept people for what they are and not what you wish them to be

 

[Kari Suttle]

My best friend is an aspie, and she keeps telling me she won't try to become better or seek help for her anxiety and other issues because she likes the way she is, despite the fact that those things cause so much problems for her and for people close to her.

She just keeps saying, "This is who I am and I embrace who I am. Why can't you accept me for me?" But the thing is, no matter how much you love and accept yourself, YOU CAN ALWAYS TRY TO IMPROVE. I don't understand why she can't do that.

Yes, she does live for herself, but isn't that kind of selfish? She expects everyone to put up with her issues, yet she never works on helping herself. Much like a hospital patient who expects everyone to pander to them but they purposely refuse medication. I would be fine with the problems that come with having an aspie friend, but I'm not fine with knowing she isn't even doing anything to help herself. She just expects everyone to give her special treatment. All. the. time. Everything is always on her terms, to make her comfortable. She can't even try to help herself out a little to help us??? How is that fair at all?

"In life you always have a choice. Sometimes it's easier to think that you don't," is more like her. I feel like she is so afraid of change that she made herself believe she had no choice and that "that's just the way I am." At this point, I don't even know what's going on with her anymore. I NEED to understand where she's coming from. The issue I'm having with this is that I can't just stand by and watch a friend not help themselves. How can I see this in a different light? What am I missing? How is it okay to let her keep living like that, with that terrible mindset? I feel like it's not morally correct, especially since not everyone who needs help knows they need help/want help.

Its hard to give accurate advice without knowing exactly what those other issues are, but i can try. Are they mental health issues like depression or anxiety, or do they stem from her being an aspie, or both? You sound like a great friend, and i feel bad if anyone's taken this the wrong way cause it sounds like you just want to understand your friend and help her help herself. Like someone's already said, being an aspie means she might not handle change, new people, and new situations well and getting a therapist (or such) would mean all of the above. If like a lot of aspies she has trouble talking to new people in normal everyday life, having to see a therapist and be totally honest and try to word things right would be pretty scary to consider doing. And then of course there's the stigma surrounding needing a therapist or meds or anything like that, and the financial side of it.

Another thing i wonder is does she realize that whatever is wrong is this big of an issue? Or has she merely accepted the problems as a character flaw that she just has to live with? Like she can't change, i mean, or maybe she thinks she should be able to manage it all by herself. You said that she said that this is who she is so i just wondered if something along those lines was going on. Cause as much as you want her to help herself, there's no point in any of this unless your friend herself sees that she has a problem, sees that she needs help, and is willing to go get it.

Again, though, i have to ask. What specifically are these issues, without going into too much detail for your friend's sake? Are they mental health issues or are they behavioral things related to asperger's syndrome?

 

[On the Inside]

As Kari said, she may not know it is that big of an issue.

I know that I have been quite oblivious to how others viewed my behaviors and traits unless they came out and said it was a problem. Even then, it might take awhile to address the issue, and indeed it may not be possible at the time, for all the reasons stated; change, new people, time, money, other more pressing issues. Also, it may not be possible at all, although anxiety can be treated, but it's not always easy or expedient. (I know first hand)

 

[DogwoodTree]

...wondering if the OP is still around?

(Where's a popcorn-eating emoji when you need one?)

 

[Ylva]

...wondering if the OP is still around?

Maybe she realized we were on her friend's side, or maybe she decided that suggesting she use the Serenity Prayer on herself was going too far. Either way, it's been an interesting thread.

 

[Kari Suttle]

Maybe she realized we were on her friend's side, or maybe she decided that suggesting she use the Serenity Prayer on herself was going too far. Either way, it's been an interesting thread.

I agree. I wonder if she left the forum cause everyone was on the friend's side. Which i can understand with how the title was worded and how she worded some things, but i think everyone went a bit too far with it. She was only wanting to try to understand things from her friend's point of view. Why write all that on an aspie forum just to vent, ya know? She sought this place out to get advice on her friend and everyone got on her saying she was selfish wanting her friend to change. I don't blame her if she ran off on us already.

 

[On the Inside]

Well, not all of it was saying she was selfish. There was quite a bit of honest information from people who share a condition in common with her friend. I hope, if she has/will come back and read the responses, she will get a sense of what her friend is experiencing.

 

[Ste11aeres]

My best friend is an aspie, and she keeps telling me she won't try to become better or seek help for her anxiety and other issues because she likes the way she is, despite the fact that those things cause so much problems for her and for people close to her. I told her that you can like who you are and still try to improve, but she says I don't get it, and she's terrible at explaining herself, so I came here for help. I badly want to understand where she's coming from. Why won't she try to improve herself?? I asked if it was because she was scared and becoming better was too much work, but she said it wasn't that. She just keeps saying, "This is who I am and I embrace who I am. Why can't you accept me for me?" But the thing is, no matter how much you love and accept yourself, YOU CAN ALWAYS TRY TO IMPROVE. I don't understand why she can't do that.

It is difficult to answer this question without knowing more details about what it is about herself that you think she should change. There are some human behaviors that people do need to change. There are some that they don't need to change. Depends on what behaviors or whatever it is that we're talking about.

Yes, she does live for herself, but isn't that kind of selfish? She expects everyone to put up with her issues, yet she never works on helping herself. Much like a hospital patient who expects everyone to pander to them but they purposely refuse medication.

What "issues" are we talking about?
Every single human being in the world lives for themself. We have to, that's how we guarantee our own survival; otherwise we would die.
But we shouldn't live only for ourself. We have to figure out how to balance out the two, concern for oneself, and concern for others. The details of how to do that depend on the specific situation,

\Everything is always on her terms, to make her comfortable. She can't even try to help herself out a little to help us??? How is that fair at all?

Again, none of us know the details, but it is clear that this friendship is stressful to you. What is it about this friendship that is good, that motivates you to stay in it?

I NEED to understand where she's coming from.

You need to tell us more detail, give us more specific info before we can help you understand where she's coming from.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Yeah, I don't think it was so much...us being on her friend's side or calling her selfish...as it was...we just weren't saying what she seemed to want to hear.

I think a lot of the posts were simply pointing out reality...that you can't change someone else, even if it hurts to watch them hurting themselves. I don't think the OP is selfish. I think she really does want to help her friend. She just can't do it by working harder on her friend's problem than the friend is willing to work on it herself (which is something my T often reminds me of).

Me, personally...I come from a very enmeshed, codependent family. I recognize the sentiment of, "I see you're hurting. Let me take responsibility for your pain, and I'll fix you."

It sounds like love, but it doesn't work out that way. It hurts to step back instead. But that's the only way the other person will have a chance to face their own junk.

 

[Naturalist]

It is difficult to answer this question without knowing more details about what it is about herself that you think she should change. There are some human behaviors that people do need to change. There are some that they don't need to change. Depends on what behaviors or whatever it is that we're talking about.

What "issues" are we talking about?
Every single human being in the world lives for themself. We have to, that's how we guarantee our own survival; otherwise we would die.
But we shouldn't live only for ourself. We have to figure out how to balance out the two, concern for oneself, and concern for others. The details of how to do that depend on the specific situation,

Again, none of us know the details, but it is clear that this friendship is stressful to you. What is it about this friendship that is good, that motivates you to stay in it?


You need to tell us more detail, give us more specific info before we can help you understand where she's coming from.

I'm with Ste11aeres, I think a significant degree of the communication breakdown in the friendship--as well as this thread--may be due to lack of specifics.

I do want to applaud the OP in coming here for advice. I hope she is still present. If so, I would remind her that Aspies need specifics. To an NT, "You need to get help for your anxiety" may seem specific enough, but if someone said that to me, I would wonder: anxiety in which instance? Anxiety at work? Anxiety at home? Anxiety in the grocery store? Because the cause of anxiety in all three instances would be quite different, and therefore might require different solutions. Medication is, for me, NOT a solution by the way, I react badly to almost everything (even acetominophen), compounding my problems. Her friend may feel the same way.

Also, it often feels that when people tell me that my problems are causing problems for others, that they are BLAMING me for their problems. Because that is literally what they are saying. And if I feel unable to fix the perceived problem, I get upset and sometimes defensive, because my intent is not to cause problems for others, just to try to deal with my own in the best way I can.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Accept people for what they are and not what you wish them to be

Right, so if somebody is abusing you in some way, you should accept that because it's a part of who they are?

 

[BIMOG]

Right, so if somebody is abusing you in some way, you should accept that because it's a part of who they are?

Did I say that? No. I merely pointed out that if you seek to change someone into someone that you do like then you should question if you actually like them as they are. If you decide that you don't you always have the option to simply walk away.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Did I say that? No. I merely pointed out that if you seek to change someone into someone that you do like then you should question if you actually like them as they are. If you decide that you don't you always have the option to simply walk away.

But that's not actually what you said in your last post, and I was responding to that, not this. I was merely pointing out there can be a downside to accepting people without using any judgement. Nobody is perfect; everyone has their foibles, difficult moments, etc. But some people are objectively horrible. My cousin had a "friend" who was leeching from his bank account for years - my aunt found out about it by accident one day. Obviously the "friend" is no longer a friend, but my cousin didn't have the mental capacity to query his ex-friend's behaviour. (He's a sweet lad who is aspie-like in some ways, but he's got minor brain damage rather than autism.)

 

[Ste11aeres]

Accept people for what they are and not what you wish them to be

Right, so if somebody is abusing you in some way, you should accept that because it's a part of who they are?

Did I say that? No. I merely pointed out that if you seek to change someone into someone that you do like then you should question if you actually like them as they are. If you decide that you don't you always have the option to simply walk away.

But that's not actually what you said in your last post, and I was responding to that, not this. I was merely pointing out there can be a downside to accepting people without using any judgement. Nobody is perfect; everyone has their foibles, difficult moments, etc. But some people are objectively horrible. My cousin had a "friend" who was leeching from his bank account for years - my aunt found out about it by accident one day. Obviously the "friend" is no longer a friend, but my cousin didn't have the mental capacity to query his ex-friend's behaviour. (He's a sweet lad who is aspie-like in some ways, but he's got minor brain damage rather than autism.)

BIMOG's initial post was simply to vague. Whether or not it is true, depends on the specific situation to which one applies that advice. I don't think he intended it to be applied to abusive situations. But yes, intention aside, it could be interpreted that way. I doubt that the two of you are genuinely in disagreement.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I think "accepting" and "choosing to be around" someone are two completely different things. If you're a jerk, I can accept that about you by choosing not to try to change-you/fix-you/manipulate-you (which wouldn't really be productive anyway). But that doesn't mean I have to spend time with you. I'll go spend time with someone who is more respectful.

Of course there are plenty of situations where you don't have the option to leave an abusive relationship, especially for children. But that still doesn't mean you can change the abusive person. The only person you can control is yourself. If you take too much responsibility for another person's behavior/problems, you'll only get sucked into a codependent and enabling relationship. Just because the other person is an abusive, evil person, doesn't mean the laws of reality change so that you can do the impossible.

That said...I realize, especially for kids, there are times when we adapt in ways to survive an abusive relationship, and it looks like we're controlling the other person by manipulating in some way. But that's not a true solution. It doesn't actually fix anything. It's just adaptive behavior in a dysfunctional situation in order to get by. And if you bring those "adaptive" behaviors into healthier relationships, those same behaviors are actually "mal-adaptive" and cause serious issues when trying to relate with healthy people.

Accept people for what they are and not what you wish them to be

I was merely pointing out there can be a downside to accepting people without using any judgement. Nobody is perfect; everyone has their foibles,

It's helpful for me to avoid the word "judgment", since that one word has so many different connotations. I tend to use the word "discernment" instead, as it seems a little more enlightening for me.

I can discern that a person has a few issues, like my friend with severe ADHD who often fails to do what he says he will do, but I love spending time with him anyway and trust that he doesn't intend to harm me in any way...he just has some flaws (as does everyone else in the world). He "owns" his own flaws, and doesn't hold anyone else responsible for his shortcomings.

And I can discern that this other person is trying to use me to get her needs met without any real concern for my freedom or well-being in the process, and so I choose to severely limit my contact with that person. She rarely acknowledges her own flaws, and tends to expect other people to solve her problems for her.

I don't try to change either person--I accept them as they are. I even like both of them for various reasons, because they both have certain strengths. But I spend different amounts of time with each, based on how much I trust them to be concerned for me in return.

Judgment/discernment isn't about labeling the person "good" or "bad"...it's about determining how much I trust that person and in what ways...and determining how close I will allow them to come into my circles of intimacy.

So basically...all of that to say...I don't think "acceptance" and "judgment" are mutually exclusive. Which, I think, is what both of you were trying to say in different ways.