Neurodivergent marriage

[jsilver256]

Hi,

I am ASD myself, married to a NT man, we have one ASD kid / one NT kid. My spouse pushed me to therapy and diagnosis. A few things to help here.

The whole gift-giving / celebration / holidays process is one of the most stressful things for me. For other NT people it seems a day where they feel loved. I do not derive much pleasure from it and the greatest birthday gift I could get would be to never have a celebration again.

The concept of doing something "for" someone does not exist in my mind. I know it is there intellectually, but for me I cannot help see things in a transactional lenses. By which I mean - for example, I like cheeseburgers, but it makes little difference if someone cooks it for me or if someone gets it from a restaurant. But it makes a lot of difference for my husband, for reasons that I will never understand.

Re: mistake reduction: my husband puts calendar reminders for everything and reviews the calendar with me before the day starts. Which is helpful. But there's still some very embarrassing mistakes.

But I don't remember using "ASD" as an excuse to not to do things.

It does sound like you and your husband can benefit from marriage therapy.

 

[Outdated]

The whole gift-giving / celebration / holidays process is one of the most stressful things for me. For other NT people it seems a day where they feel loved. I do not derive much pleasure from it and the greatest birthday gift I could get would be to never have a celebration again.

This is true for me too. From early childhood I always hated Christmas, until I was adult, then I discovered that it was the one day of the year when everyone was busy with their families so it was the one day of the year where I could rely on everyone leaving me alone. One of the advantages of not having family.

I did like doing things to let a partner know she was special though, if that was the case, small gifts, hand made items, fancy cooking, etc. But as you mention I also have a bit of that transactional lens and was disappointed when they didn't reciprocate.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

@Dalana789, He may have an autism variant associated with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA). Pathological Demand Avoidance: Causes, Symptoms, Coping
Several videos on the topic on YouTube.

 

[Dalana789]

It sounds like he's in complete denial. The problem is not with him. Everyone else expects too much. Etc.

That's exactly what he says

 

[Judge]

Yes, but how to deal with this? There are ways, aren't there? Or is it all useless? How can we live together if everything is on me? Children, finances, dog, planning, etc.

Coping strategies to address PDA in autism​

When it comes to coping strategies for PDA in autism, Worley indicates it’s essential to work in a non-confrontational way that allows an autistic person to maintain a sense of control.

She says, for children, this can mean creating an environment that feels safe and predictable, providing choices, and not presenting demands as challenges.

Adults may be able to take a more awareness-based approach to coping with PDA that addresses underlying anxiety.

“Adults may benefit from structured support to develop strategies for managing demands and anxiety, perhaps through therapy that focuses on building tolerance to demands in a gentle and supportive way,” Worley adds.

For both adults and children experiencing PDA, Borden recommends:

• collaborating and taking negotiate-based approaches that promote a feeling of empowerment
• providing choices and flexibility to maintain a sense of control
• using positive reinforcement and incentives to complete tasks
• developing and maintaining a calm, supportive, predictable environment
• learning to accept what’s within control and what isn’t
• working with a professional to develop ways to approach everyday life with PDA

Takeaway​

Pathological demand avoidance, or PDA, describes a specific lived experience in autism spectrum disorder (ASD) involving extreme aversion and resistance to everyday demands.

While not a formal diagnosis, PDA is considered to be a behavioral profile of ASD. People experiencing PDA in autism often have an intense anxiety response to the pressures of demand, to the point where they may even fight their own bodily needs to eat or use the bathroom.

Research is limited on PDA, but like other presentations of autism, it’s thought to have underlying genetic, neurological, and environmental causes.

PDA Autism: Definition, Signs, and Coping Tips

 

[Aspychata]

It does feel hurtful, even just a card and flowers will suffice. This could be demand avoidance. l met a guy like that, went thru the birthday thing too. Now l go out to eat, dosen't even have to be my birthday, this guy likes me to be happy, no demand avoidance happening.

 

[All-Rounder]

I don't really like presents myself, and I don't like fresh flowers. The most important thing for me is understanding that a person has done something for you, even if it's just getting out of bed when he didn't want to, but for you. On one of my birthdays, I asked him (he hasn't done surprises for a long time, because it's almost always a failure) to make me paper flowers with his own hands. There are many different schemes on the Internet. But he forgot about it and did it like a little child, carrying something different an hour before I woke up. And it looked like he did it for the most hated person in the universe.

Even now, I asked him to give me a bouquet of roses made from a Lego set. I sent him a link to the store and wrote that I want you to give me such a bouquet of roses. And he gave me a set in a box.

He seems to dislike crafting things and to be very distracted in his distractions. Sounds like a lot of my spectrum exes bless their terror.

Maybe you can ask about what he is up to and ask him various questions to explain more about it if you don't dislike that thing.

Let whatever you tried in the past be the dead-away that is not the way and stop trying those again anymore as it's lost time and nerve and had been confirmed not to work. You need new different ideas. Maybe things you weren't so eager to try.

I have au and adhd but for me the gift giving started when presents from friends inspired me through emotion. I like pics with a lot of shine and detail, I got one at some point from a friend on vday because he didn't want his friends to feel lonely and it seemed very sweet and impressed me. I'm big on romance so vday has been the most important holiday for me. He doesn't seem like he prefers any. Maybe if he gets lego on his bday he will. But there's no guarantees he will want to return the favor. Socializing fascinated me.

I had particularly noticed some exes misinterpreted my wording and tried to find loopholes to get away with little effort invested towards my needs. No matter how much effort into explaining I put they'd still find a way to do against it. I assumed narcissistic personality comorbid or a terrible character based in addictions, anger issues, mental volatility, toxicity, denial and manipulation. They ended up disloyal and a lot of other things as well so I can't compare them to most aspies at all, but I would not know how our aspies here behave at home, they just inspire much more trust and effectiveness.

Who knows, maybe he's got depression, overwhelm like my psych told me I used to have when I couldn't do anything and I didn't know why, and maybe doesn't have a lead on how he can evolve, I came a long way thanks to my exes and psychologists and not my mother who has only screamed at me when I'd actually do something.

So you tell me you ve been to the psych, what do they say he has? Why is he behaving like this? Did they know he isn't putting in the effort at home? How do they explain this whole situation? What did they advise you? I couldn't get my exes to attend therapy, they wouldn't budge. I had to do it on my side, begging for free sessions or using the little funds I had. I have high regard for therapy, it makes perfect sense.

But fml when you're ill or exhausted yourself to take care of someone else's illness it's just stupid. And for what, for affection? There's affection everywhere I look and I can look anywhere else. That who is not a lover to me is not a lover of mine. Plus even in the NT world the means through which people get their intimacy needs met are extra varied, you have to match on some level. Some physical, some activity-based, some speech, I really can't remember them all anymore. People connect through different means.

In my perception there are plenty autistic men who are looking for a girlfriend and they're ready to please. Even desperate to. Not that I'd compare but there is variety.

Intimacy in Relationships: Types, Roadblocks, and How to Build

 

[All-Rounder]

Just a little joke on the side. You probably were clear with him about it.

Unfortunately it is an absolute killer of romance, and alien creativity receive, it's also very soul and perseverance killer, it's downright humiliating for a gf let alone a wife with kids that does house chores.

To tell him everything you want and let go of surprises like he's a robot doing without adding his own mark on it. And gets old as fast as my romance with Cleverbot, even before it because of the expectation of a human being and a partner.

It's why I like roleplaying so much, everything is just what does not exist in this particular case. Namely creativity, uniqueness, challenge, spontaneity, romance, unique and extremely clear expressivity and you get the time necessary to come up with creation. I spent entire days doing it, I could do it forever. And even the excitedness of waiting for the reply for half an hour. Or waiting for the person to piss or eat in between lol And the struggle to remember special words or put thoughts together and words melodically, challenging you always. Millions ideas per day. And you don't have to intuit the other person's reaction because they will surely tell you how they feel about it, but you can always let your imagination run.

 

[All-Rounder]

By which I mean - for example, I like cheeseburgers, but it makes little difference if someone cooks it for me or if someone gets it from a restaurant. But it makes a lot of difference for my husband, for reasons that I will never understand.

Interesting. I think I'm peculiar about the situation, like for cheeseburgers maybe, for sex, definitely no lol, for presents definitely matters stuff like if someone is bringing it themselves or making something that's part of a present even just a bday card with a few words. Although I would probably get skeptical to see not much work or idea went into it. Like reminds me of that psycho murderer who hired his wife a killer but before he sent her a very minimal gift card. And his gf on the side a lot more effort and gifts.

But my absolute expected gift minimally is cuddles and time together. I know somebody cares if they desire me in their life and wants to cuddle with me. Practically acknowledge me like we acknowledge dogs' existences.

 

[rd58]

Hi all

Husband of the OP here

First and foremost, I do LOVE my wife. I am grateful to her for everything she has done, and still is doing for me.

I have been reading the forum for quite some time, though I didn't write
I like the advices, and I learned a lot (not that it matters, as already explained by my wife up there)
So, now - explanation! Not excuses!!! For clarity, again, I'm owning my failures and mistakes, but some of them are caused by things so far beyond my control that I cannot possibly own the cause, or remove it, I can only compensate it, as much as I can.

Sry, I'm really tired of all my explanations perceived as excuses, when I'm not making ones.

I definitely do have PDA, although getting diagnosed is kinda tricky here - our mental health guys don't have enough exp with ASD/ADHD in adults
So, with PDA - when I'm rested, I'm more capable to deal with it, but it's like trying to push the dumper with your hands uphill most of the time.
Then, I did have depression, officially diagnosed.
Tried some ADs, now got off the latest, which did me personally lots of good (less feeling tired as hell, suicidal thoughts gone, which I couldn't achieve before even though I used advice from 'Feeling good' by David Burns
Still, when I'm exhausted, I'm no good at all, and I don't know of any practical way of getting less exhausted, or getting more rest, because there just isn't enough time in one day.
Also, I feel overwhelmed by shame from my previous failures with my wife (there were lots, but as she's the OP, let her decide what else to disclose here).
I do value her help, and support
Just... I can't explain her that many of the things she proposes (like doing chores as they appear, doing whatever she asks right away) are not always achievable: I cannot identify if a chore needs doing, so I put a routine in place, e.g. laundry - I feel too overwhelmed when I have to check and decide if I need to do laundry or not, it is much easier for me to just do it, no matter the amount, or do it on certain days.

She keeps saying that a routine and schedule so don't work, because life is all unpredictable etc. I learned already to keep my distress at sudden changes of plans down. Still, sometimes, when I'm too tired and exhausted, I become really grumpy.
BTW, the trick to get those weekend changes of plans fine in my head was to PLAN for change, so that's what I expect and get.
I cannot truly understand all this stuff about "you need to change the way you think", because how the hell am I supposed to change the chemistry and biology of my brain?
Or anyone has any advice on the subject - you are welcome.
I've read those Carnegie's books, and quite a few others, and find them to be full of really obvious stuff. Which, from my point of view, is applicable only in very restricted circumstances, does not take into account any social/financial/mental state of the person, and looks more like a cult. Like a cargo cult, to be exact. I'm expected to do what Carnegie (as an example) tells, and ... what? I tried that approach from time to time, the last time being slightly over 7 years ago, and it didn't do me any good - although I followed the instructions in the books!
Hence my negative disposition towards any things written by the guys saying "you are totally in control of what happens to you"
Hence what looks sometimes like PDA, when my explanations like "look, I tried that, it's BS because A, B and C" are confronted with "you did it wrong then, try again"
And "if you want, you'll find a way; if you don't want, you'll find an excuse"

How am I supposed to explain that I DO want, I just don't know HOW and there is no reliable guide on HOW, because no one in the world seems to know (including aspies themselves)?

Also, there is miscommunication
I often get feeling, and I know it's mutual, that whatever I say just goes down the drain. Like this situation with explanations and excuses
I realise that maybe NTs have it some other way, but in my experience, if I want to do something, it's a challenge to 1. Start, 2. See it through 3. Finish. And sometimes I just CANNOT, i.e. NOT ABLE to do some things. I cannot comprehend many things, especially when emotions affect logic and it goes sideways from my point of view. I still cannot understand that. But I live with that.

Thank you for reading this long post, and sorry for such a long one, I feel like I need to explain as much as I can in one post
If it's too much - ask questions, I will try to elaborate.

P.s. I tried Strattera for ADHD, awful side effects, but since that time I have less fog in my head

P.P.S. as for cigarettes, they provide: a) nicotine, which is the only available stimulant here, and b) some kind of routine and alone time or c) comfortable socialization with known context

 

[Roisin]

Hi @rd58, its good to have your perspective in this thread... there is a lot to read, if I can I will reply later.

 

[rd58]

Hi @rd58, its good to have your perspective in this thread... there is a lot to read, if I can I will reply later.

Thank you!

 

[Dalana789]

So now - the explanation! These are not excuses!!! To be clear, again, I admit my failures and mistakes, but some of them are caused by things so beyond my control that I cannot acknowledge the cause or eliminate them, I can only compensate for them to the best of my ability.

And I think that all these are excuses and not explanations. After all, ADHD and Asperger's are a well-studied thing and methods that allow you to live fully in a family are also known.

 

[All-Rounder]

Hi @rd58, its good to have your perspective in this thread... there is a lot to read, if I can I will reply later.

Me too I have to get ready to let other people wash my hair (my hairdresser) to save up energy.

 

[Human Avatar]

Conformity+standard social constructs+social expectations+ existing in modern society =
Exacerbated Autistic burn out, cognitive dysfunction, declined outward reality awareness

 

[AprilR]

My father is also asd and if i dont reminds him he also forgets about getting a cake/gifts for my mom. I don't see this as a shortcoming tbh, he works a lot and has a lot on his mind.

 

[Dalana789]

I am not just saying this for nothing. In the past, I had obsessive-compulsive depression. Panic attacks, schizoid behavior, taking the strongest tranquilizers and antidepressants. Now only anxiety disorder remains. At one point, a doctor told me that no pills in the world will save you if you do not work on yourself and do not change your thinking. And that is what happened. More than 15 years of working on myself and daily meditations gave an effect.

 

[Mr. Stevens]

I do value her help, and support
Just... I can't explain her that many of the things she proposes (like doing chores as they appear, doing whatever she asks right away) are not always achievable: I cannot identify if a chore needs doing, so I put a routine in place, e.g. laundry - I feel too overwhelmed when I have to check and decide if I need to do laundry or not, it is much easier for me to just do it, no matter the amount, or do it on certain days.

She keeps saying that a routine and schedule so don't work, because life is all unpredictable etc. I learned already to keep my distress at sudden changes of plans down. Still, sometimes, when I'm too tired and exhausted, I become really grumpy.

I find routines/set schedules for laundry, groceries, and other things very useful. That's how they get done successfully. In my experience, the routine is necessary because life is unpredictable. I can deal better with surprises when I know there's a good framework for things I need and want to do.

 

[rd58]

And I think that all these are excuses and not explanations. After all, ADHD and Asperger's are a well-studied thing and methods that allow you to live fully in a family are also known.

I would like to comment here, without any blame, accusations, etc.: I cannot shift others' perception; I understand it, I acknowledge the point of view of another, I try to share my mind and the way I think, and I try to shift my own perception, of I am proven wrong. I judge if I am wrong or not by analyzing my experience and evidence from other sources. I am really challenged in this situation, though: my accumulated knowledge supported by science and comments by others with ASD, and my experience also, tell me one thing, and the most important person in my life states that what I know is wrong, yet I cannot twist my mind enough to see where it comes from and how I could adjust without becoming totally helpless and useless in the long run (past experience).

When I was first diagnosed with ADHD, a couple of years ago, I did try new things I never tried before, and some things I did try before, to see if maybe change was possible. Some changes took, I am now a much more organized compared to what I were 7 years ago, my hygiene is also a lot better.

However, although I can read emotions of a movie character quite well, and even 'become' one, I still cannot do this in a real life situation, and when facing extreme emotions, I 'shut down' and become over-logical, without any intention to do so.

Also, I become a real slowpoke when exhausted, which sometimes happens at the worst possible moment.

 

[jsilver256]

I would respectfully suggest that you both find a marriage counselor and discuss marriage issues with each other rather than on this thread. Good luck.