Nintendo Switch discussion

[xudo]

Right now I am playing Mario Kart 8: Deluxe! It is so much better than the original, especially due to the return of double items (Boo is the new returning item in Deluxe) and power drift (3 levels again)
It also has an optional auto accelerate too.
The game is way more chaotic with items and blue shells than the original.

Though I've played an hour of it, my right thumb can't take anymore.

Also playing with a single joycon is not bad at all.

So. Much. Fun. Have you tried playing it portable, with motion controls? It's quite disorientating, and that's coming from someone who had no issues playing it like that on the WiiU control pad. We got a set of the wheel peripherals as that's what I prefer to use for Mario Kart, and although they are tiny compared to the old ones, it wasn't as difficult to get used to as I expected. I do find that having smaller hands, I am favouring the plus joycon, as the buttons are closer to my right thumb.

I'm with you on the thumb pain, although I should know to be more careful as I have arthritis in my right thumb

 

[VenomousAlbino]

It's fun. Story mode is a bit of a pain when playing alone.
I'll play it again when my cousin comes back over.
Multiplayer is really fun.

I've but the game back in it's case, because it's boring in single player.

Though I did get the game for $40 instead of $50 due to a sale.

Right now I am playing Mario Kart 8: Deluxe! It is so much better than the original, especially due to the return of double items (Boo is the new returning item in Deluxe) and power drift (3 levels again)
It also has an optional auto accelerate too.
The game is way more chaotic with items and blue shells than the original.

Though I've played an hour of it, my right thumb can't take anymore.

Also playing with a single joycon is not bad at all.

I've also been playing Puyo Puyo Tetris which is addictive puzzler. Though obviously it would be more fun with humans in the same room. (Digital on Switch is $30)

Lastly I've also gotten addicted to the indie game graceful explosions machine. The game is an addictive old school side scrolling arcade shooter. You play as a spaceship who must destroy all the alien enemies to clear the level.
You scroll can scroll left or right. You can switch directions by pressing one of the shoulder buttons.
The longer you keep chaining kills, the higher your multiplier and score goes.

It's like R-type but not as fast paced.
Oh the explosions of the enemies are colorful squares.
It's only $12 on the eShop

I buy a new game almost every payday as a reward for making it to payday.

Cool, I might look into Super Bomberman R then. Like I said before, back on the Mega Drive, Mega Bomberman was my brother and I's multiplayer game of choice; well, that and Micro Machines '96.

Mario Kart 8 is as fun as ever. It looks really good in portable mode, too.

I really enjoyed the Puyo Puyo Tetris demo and it's definitely on my wishlist. Some extra joy-cons are needed first, though.

 

[Xenocity]

So. Much. Fun. Have you tried playing it portable, with motion controls? It's quite disorientating, and that's coming from someone who had no issues playing it like that on the WiiU control pad. We got a set of the wheel peripherals as that's what I prefer to use for Mario Kart, and although they are tiny compared to the old ones, it wasn't as difficult to get used to as I expected. I do find that having smaller hands, I am favouring the plus joycon, as the buttons are closer to my right thumb.

I'm with you on the thumb pain, although I should know to be more careful as I have arthritis in my right thumb

I found 150cc to be too sensitive for motion controls, especially for the drift mechanics.
I can't sharply turn without being physically thrown off center. Though it's probably just me.

Though auto accelerate is a godsend. It makes playing so much better.

It also doesn't effect star ranking.

Though if you use the turning assist feature, it will stop you from getting star rankings.
Instead you get yellow dotted

 

[VenomousAlbino]

@Xenocity I hope you can read Japanese. If not, I can see you having to wait until 2018 to play XC2. Obviously, I might be wrong but you know how long localisation can sometimes take for JRPG's...

Got myself another pair of Joy-Cons today, so 4-player Mario Kart 8 is ON.

 

[xudo]

Though auto accelerate is a godsend. It makes playing so much better.

I have trouble with arthritis is my right thumb (the one I'd use to accelerate), so today I tried auto accelerate instead. Took a bit of getting used to, as it was weird not doing it myself, but saves a lot of pain. I've noticed that it doesn't begin to accelerate until the countdown finishes though, so no sneaky boost off the starting line.

 

[Xenocity]

@Xenocity I hope you can read Japanese. If not, I can see you having to wait until 2018 to play XC2. Obviously, I might be wrong but you know how long localisation can sometimes take for JRPG's...

Got myself another pair of Joy-Cons today, so 4-player Mario Kart 8 is ON.

XC2 is stated for a worldwide release for 2017 per Nintendo's Financial briefing and according to the CEO to their investors.

beware 4 player MK8D is maxed out at 4-single Joycons. if you want a full controller you must use a Pro controller. You can use mix and match single Joycons and Pro controllers

MK8D only allows two full joy cons to work, so its capped at 2 player mode.
This is due to the wireless chipset having a maximum amount of devices being connected without interference.

I have trouble with arthritis is my right thumb (the one I'd use to accelerate), so today I tried auto accelerate instead. Took a bit of getting used to, as it was weird not doing it myself, but saves a lot of pain. I've noticed that it doesn't begin to accelerate until the countdown finishes though, so no sneaky boost off the starting line.

the accelerator buttons still works with auto accelerate turned on
so you can still rev your engine for the boost

 

[VenomousAlbino]

I only have 2 Joy-Con pairs. I'm not made of money.

 

[Xenocity]

Raymond L. Stochel - Consumer Edge Research LLC
Great. Thanks for taking the question. How are you guys thinking now about the Nintendo Switch post launch? And is this in your new Gen console installed base forecast? Thanks.

Andrew P. Wilson - Electronic Arts, Inc.
So we feel really good about it. Again, we came out early and said that we'll be supporting the Nintendo Switch with our biggest title in FIFA. We have a tremendous relationship with Nintendo and have done for many, many years and are excited by the fact that they have come out very strong and are bringing in a whole new player base into the ecosystem. We continue to be bullish on it and are looking at other titles that we might bring to the Switch. Our console number that we quoted does not include the Switch at this point, so anything that Nintendo does is additive to that number.

From EA's financial report today.
According to others who were at the briefing are reporting that EA sees the Switch user base as "casuals"/kids and is planning the appropriate software like they did on Wii and DS (remember how crappy their output was on those systems).

 

[JackSkellington]

Not too surprised by the EA report. It's been clear for a long time- Nintendo is a family company, while Sony and Microsoft appeal to teens and adults. People can argue about how Nintendo does have plenty of fun games for adults- but the user base for Nintendo consoles/handhelds have generally been kids. I'm not saying Nintendo is just for kids- but when people want mature stories (not talking just blood and violence- but plot related and serious issues and whatever) they go to games that are for PC, PS4 and Xbox One.

I've been a longtime Nintendo fan (as a child many years ago, and as an adult now), they are very stubborn and refuse to change their ways. They rely on gimmicks for systems too much now, less power and much more. They make great games but almost always lack third party support for consoles. But when it comes to handhelds- they get tons of great third party games! I personally feel they need to start asking these companies to make console games for them- if not, give them the boot. "All or nothing" type of deal. I find it a problem when great RPGs are more on handhelds than consoles these days. I don't have a huge need to stare at a tiny screen!

I enjoy gaming on PC, PS4 and older systems (never bought a Wii U or Switch.. yet at least). I do feel the exclusives for Nintendo generally outshine most stuff that's exclusive for Sony+Microsoft consoles. However that doesn't fix the third party problem Nintendo refuses to address. I don't know.. perhaps the higher ups in Nintendo think "if people want these great games, they will buy them elsewhere. Let's just focus on 1st party stuff". I strongly feel Nintendo needs to change their thought process.

You know what else is wrong with Nintendo these days? They refuse to cater to their older fans much. Virtual Console for nearly all systems it has been on- it's been a slow drip of games generally. Sure there is a few weeks they release a ton of games, but it's not often overall. I know plenty of people just steal games by emulating but many don't. Also many people don't just have the cash and time to find every old game and console. Which leads me to the NES Classic- Nintendo dropped the ball on that and simply let the re-sellers win. It seems a bit clear NES Classic was just used to keep Nintendo in the news, so the Switch would get more attention at launch (even though it has barely any games!). It's so unfortunate. Watch as they do it again, if the rumored SNES Classic comes. But anyway..

I still stand by what I've said before- Switch launch was rushed. The system barely has anything. Tons of ports, barely any exclusives, etc. Third party companies shouldn't give Nintendo another chance if this system bombs quick. I really hope the Switch lasts a while but still feels like a big gimmick.

 

[VenomousAlbino]

@JackSkellington "Loads of ports and barely any exclusives" isn't exactly a reason for concern two months after a system's launch, nor is it particularly abnormal in that time frame. If that's the case after two years then, yeah, by all means I'll join you in your doom and gloom.

Also, don't forget that E3 is a month away.

 

[JackSkellington]

I agree to a point- it's too early to tell. But E3 generally hasn't featured much Nintendo stuff. They've done digital events for a few years now (or was it just last year?). I feel like this year will be previews for a ton of games not coming until next year or so. I would guess Mario is coming late this year, along with other things we've known about.

It's doom and gloom because I know how the past 2 consoles have been. Outside of Mario, Zelda, Smash and a few others.. it's been shovelware and horrible ports.

 

[Questella]

Nintendo's been holding Sonic's rights still, correct? Any STH plans for the switch? Or Garfield? I've always enjoyed Garfield themed games.

 

[JackSkellington]

Nintendo's been holding Sonic's rights still, correct? Any STH plans for the switch? Or Garfield? I've always enjoyed Garfield themed games.

No idea about Garfield games, but a new Sonic the Hedgehog game is expected this year. It's coming for PC, PS4, Xbox One and Switch.

 

[Questella]

No idea about Garfield games, but a new Sonic the Hedgehog game is expected this year. It's coming for PC, PS4, Xbox One and Switch.

Oh nice I was thinking of getting the kid the xbox1 for Minecraft this Christmas now I can try the new sonic as well. I just know if they end up releasing a Pokemon rpg only on the switch I'll probably end up with one for that I've gotten every gamboy since the pocket just for Pokemon. Back when the price for the systems was cheap is even have 2 of every system so I could trade between my games. Are they planning on the switch just being their portable system replacing the whole gameboy/ds line as well as the console systems?

 

[Xenocity]

@JackSkellington
Here's the real probably with EA and Nintendo started back with SNES.
EA demand exclusive special treatment and cheaper royalties from Nintendo and full marketing of their games by Nintendo. They also demanded that Nintendo end their relationships with the other 3rd parties.

Nintendo said no. EA went to Sega and showed the Sega that they had reversed engineered the Genesis/MD antipiracy measures. They demanded that Sega fund and market their games or they would release the code publicly so anyone could pirate the system.

Sega caved and EA gave Sega their full support and shafted the SNES.

When PS1 came along, they told Sony to give them everything they wanted or PS1 would not get a single EA game. Sony caved.

EA went back to Sega and Nintendo and told them to match the deal or lose support.

Sega and Nintendo didn't have the resources to match the huge 300,000 employee/27 division based Sony.

So they couldn't match Sony's deal.

Thus Saturn and N64 saw EA pretty much ignore their systems.

EA demanded even more from Sony to get their support on PS2.
One of the demands was that Sony could not produce and/or sponsor any non EA sports games.

They took this deal Sega and Sega said no.
EA went out of its way to sink the Dreamcast.

EA took the deal to Microsoft and Nintendo
Microsoft agreed to give EA even more than Sony was giving them and agreed to stop development of all of it's Sports games and anything that competed with EA.
Nintendo agreed to stop developing sports games and help EA out financially for Gamecube.

Sony did pay for the development of nearly every 3rd party title on PS1 and PS2
Microsoft did pay for all the 3rd party titles on Xbox and Xbox 360.

Then the HD generation rolled in and EA up their deal once more.
Microsoft agreed to give EA everything they wanted.
Sony balked at the price and fought it out with EA until PS3 bombed out of the gate sales wise.
Nintendo said NO, when EA demanded they match Microsoft's deal.
EA only supported Wii due to investors demands.


Then Wii U happened and the deal broke down between EA and Nintendo causing EA to cancel most of the games they had in production for Wii U and caused them to send their Wii U games to die.

Then this generation happened.
Sony knew they had the power and forced EA to accept a less than stellar deal.
EA went to Microsoft and demanded a huge deal or they would not support Xbox One.
At E3 2013 Microsoft agreed to pay for all of EA's development and marketing costs for Xbox One at a tune of $400 Million.
Microsoft's deals with EA for Xbox One are well over $500 Million and counting.

That's just for EA.


Now for how much 3rd party support really costs.

Sony spent almost $100 Million in just development costs to pay for all the 3rd party support PS1 received.
No 3rd parties were willing to support PS1 outside of shovelware, unless Sony was willing to pay for development cost.
Sony had to pay to get all that non shovelware support on PS1.

PS2 came along and Sony had to do keep dolling out the money to keep 3rd parties on board.
All that PS2 support cost them over $200 Million.
Microsoft spent even more to get 3rd parties to touch Xbox.

With PS3 Sony had to spend over $500 Million to keep 3rd parties on board.
They spent over $100 Million to get 3rd parties to support PSP as well.

Microsoft spent over $100 Million on GTA IV and it's exclusive DLC alone on Xbox 360.
Microsoft spent over $600 Million on 3rd party support on Xbox 360.

When that generation ended it, PS3 lost over $8 Billion, leaving Sony on the literal verge of bankruptcy. Sony has literally been selling off key real estate and a few divisions just to pay the bills now. They haven't recovered from PS3 disaster yet.
Fun fact PS3 lost twice as much money as PS2+PS1 made in total profits.

Xbox 360 lost Microsoft so much money, that Microsoft restructured its self to hide the Xbox unit from investors and the public. We know it had lost over $6 Billion on 360 and over $1Billion on Xbox before it was thrown in with profitable products.

Only Wii and DS made profit that gen making more money than Sony has ever made in with the whole of Playstation (Excluding PS3).

Xbox One is said to be losing money at Microsoft to the point investors are demanding the shutting down or selling off of Xbox Unit.
Microsoft has never released financial records pertaining to Xbox One.

PS4 is making Sony only a few hundred million each year.

Though Microsoft and Sony are set to break the $1 Billion mark each for the amount of money they've spent to get full 3rd party support this gen sometime in 2017.
They will most likely spend close to $2 Billion each just to get full 3rd party support by the time this generation ends.

For Nintendo, $2 Billion is more than their annual profits in most years.
I mean they make close to a Billion each year except for the last 3 years.

To put this way.

1. Microsoft has ~90,000 employees, over $30 Billion in revenue, 3 Divisions, and $12 Billion in yearly profits most years,
2. Sony has ~100,000 employees, over $10 Billion in revenue, 25 Divisions and well they've been struggling to breakeven every year after 2004.
3. Nintendo has ~5,500 employees, ~$2 Billion in revenue, 2 Divisions and well normally are the most profitable hardware maker in the gaming industry.

The point is you can't make 3rd parties work for free, especially not EA.
3rd parties expect you to match whatever the best deal is from the other two.

Also you cannot restricted what 3rd parties release on your system or they will leave you for good.
Sony does not force quality controls on 3rd parties.

-

 

[Xenocity]

As for the Virtual Console:

1. It costs between $50,000 to $100,000 to get each game certified and then rated in every major market. You literally have to pay every rating board money to get your game rated, this includes ESRB (NA), PEGI (EU), USK (Germany), Cero (Japan) and then in S. Korea, Australia and Brazil. This does not include the cost of porting.
2. Most games don't sell enough to make back the money for certification and rating.
3. Most games are lucky to make back the cost of porting.
4. This goes for PS4, Xbox One, Wii U and 3DS
5. IT can literally cost upwards of $200,000 to get an SNES/Genesis/GBA game to digital release.
6. Most developers don't want to pay that price.
7. Most retro titles sell poorly to the point of making a loss.

This is not including how many games are caught in legal limbo due to legal rights ( a huge amount of all pre 3D titles are in this spot).

Wii U has almost the complete library of Nintendo's pre N64 days. It also has most of Nintendo's N64 releases.
The games that are missing are either held up in legal limbo or have not being translated into Western languages.

3rd parties mostly refused to support Wii U Virtual Console due to many reasons.
The three major complaints over the Virtual Console from 3rd parties:

1. Nintendo forced them to price their games too low at the current price structure
2. Sales don't justify the costs
3. Nintendo wants to license their games for too long of a time (Most games are 5 years, then they get pulled unless a new license agreement is reached).

Though to be fair, no one buys most retro titles including Nintendo's games.
It's literally only Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, and Sonic that do well (Sony and Nintendo post weekly sales charts on their shops).

Wii U did lack non Nintendo systems because Sega and Konami refused to relicense their systems from the Wii.

Switch does have NeoGeo games, which is about 20 total sitting on the eShop currently.
PS4 has about 25 retro titles on PSN, though they are mostly PS2 classics.

So without the proper VC, Switch is almost caught up to PS4 in retro titles.
3rd parties are not lining up to support PS4 with retro titles due to low sales of the current titles.
Sony is not interested in paying to get those games on PS4.

As for Prices:

1. PS1 Classics cost ~$15 on PS4 and you have to rebuy them if you own them on PS3, PSVita, and PSP. Your library does not carry over to PS4.
2. PS2 classics cost ~$20 on PS4, none carry over to PS4. So you have to rebuy them if you want them on PS4.
3. Jury is still out on Switch, but Nintendo did give us a small upgrade fee to get the Wii U version. Though you could play the Wii version for free in Wii Mode.

So the point is retro titles rarely sell enough to warrant the costs involved.

Will we get a VC on Switch? Yes and it will probably be announced on June 13th at 12N ET.
Will it have non Nintendo systems? Extremely unlikely.
Will it have 3rd party support of the Nintendo systems? not likely.

 

[Xenocity]

Now will for the outcome of Switch 3rd party support.

Don't expect Switch to get Western 3rd party support outside of Shovelware. Western 3rd parties expected to be subsidized and ONLY CATER TO 15-35 WESTERN MALES who play sports and shooters. They will not support a system that does not cater to that group exclusively. This group is known as the "hardcore gamers"/real gamers.

What is so important about this group?

1. This group literally only buys Sports, Shooters, M-rated games and AAA Blockbuster games (The sales data doesn't lie)
2. They look down on any game that isn't in those groups
3. They are very loyal customers who will buy those games even if they are broken at launch and at whatever price is asked.
4. They will buy the DLC regardless of what it is.
5. They literally will never put up a fight and willingly comeback year after.
6. They will not associate with any other groups that play games.
7. They take the marketing and hype to heart

The reality:

1. This group is the minority.
2. Each of the other groups are bigger and depending on the year spend more money.
3. The other groups are more informed and will not take any of the crap including broken games and vote with their money.
4. The other groups will spend more money when given something to spend their money on.
5. They will not buy broken games and horrible DLC.
6. Women are willing to spend more money than the "hardcore".
7. Women spend most of their gaming money on PC and Nintendo.
8. Non "hardcore" men like myself largely ignore the staples of Western gaming and we equal to the "hardcore" in size
9. The "hardcore" shrinks significantly each generation since PS2.
10. Switch has sold mainly to the "hardcore" group, though obviously the demographics will be more diverse by the end of the year.

The problem is Western 3rd parties don't want to be bothered to cater to the masses, they just want to cater to their ever shrinking group. They literally would have to literally force their marketing arms to change the marketing. Their developers don't want other groups to be playing their games.

If those changes happen then the "hardcore' will quit buying their games as they believe those companies have sold them out for the inferior gamers.

"hardcore" gamers don't like to share at all.
You can get the "hardcore' or everyone else but you cannot have both.

Switch will easily get indie and Japanese 3rd party games in droves, thus resembling PS1 library without the 3rd party games and the bulk of shovelware (PS1 and PS2 had more shovelware than any other consoles in history based on actual titles released).
Take Two is already announcing their sports games for Switch.
Though Skyrim is the test game to see if Major Western 3rd parties can sell on Switch.
So if Skyrim fails to sell (Which it is an old game at this point), the kiss Major Western 3rd party support goodbye!

But the grass is not greener on the other side.

Xbox One and PS4 are literally selling just Sports games, Shooters, M-rated games and AAA Blockbusters by the millions.
Everything else is literally bombing, including RE7 (Capcom said it bombed), FFXV (it only sold 5 million copies being the highest selling Japanese and T rated game on those systems), and other games.
If your game is T-rated or less, then you can kiss your sales goodbye.
Family friendly titles are struggling, Japanese games are struggling, T-rated games are struggling etc... It's a graveyard for those games that aren't major Western games and shooters.
We have the sales numbers.

This is the repeat of what happened on Xbox 360 and PS3.

On the flipside, Wii U sales were more diverse unless you were a major Western 3rd party (though their games weren't marketed and weren't optimized) who bothered to ship enough copies to market (most didn't bother to ship enough copies to cover the demand).
Wii also sold 900 Million units of software, which 600 million were 3rd party titles.
Most of the million seller list on Wii was decent 3rd party titles including all the Call of Dutys (there was 4), 3 Resident Evil games, Monster Hunter, Just Dance (music games aren't shovelware), Non All-Play EA Sports, and other decent 3rd party titles.
Shovelware rarely sold well, but that is the case on every system.

Though EA did turn all their sports titles in to colorful cartoony games on Wii because they thought that's what the market wanted in 2009. Those games bombed and EA blamed the consumers.
EA never made a regular sports game on Wii after 2008.
EA never made a full featured sports title after 2008 on any Nintendo system ever again.

The point is Nintendo's systems sell a wide diverse catalog of 3rd party software, except for Major Western 3rd party games which for the most part are horribly broken ports when they exist. PS4 and Xbox One are toxic to anything that isn't a major Western 3rd party game.

Though to be fair PC has the exact same issue, most major Western 3rd party titles are horrible ports on PC and/or lacking features.

I'm done with my massively long explanation on why the industry works the way it does.

 

[VenomousAlbino]

I agree to a point- it's too early to tell. But E3 generally hasn't featured much Nintendo stuff. They've done digital events for a few years now (or was it just last year?). I feel like this year will be previews for a ton of games not coming until next year or so. I would guess Mario is coming late this year, along with other things we've known about.

Nintendo has already outlined its plans for E3. Its Nintendo Spotlight presentation will include new information on Super Mario Odyssey (launching Holiday 2017) and will otherwise focus on Switch games coming in 2017. So expect more info on ARMS, Splatoon 2 and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 along with a few surprises, because E3 always brings surprises.

 

[Xenocity]

The ARMS global test punch is running at this weekend and next.
Hours are listed above

The demo was really fun and ran surprisingly well.

Also capcom announced Monster Hunter XX for Switch, coming this year.

 

[Misery]

ARMS is one that I actually kinda had interest in myself even.... until I read that there were motion controls involved. Always an instant no-go without exception in my case.

I dont suppose that game has the option to NOT use that? At this point you seriously couldnt pay me to use motion controls for pretty much anything. Frankly, that they're still around on this console irritates me, though I kinda expected it. As long as Splatoon isnt forcing the accursed things on me, I'll be good to go with the console.

Monster Hunter though, now that is an exciting one. ...As long as they dont somehow screw up the controls or something. Or do another MH3, where they dumb down half of the game by removing tons of stuff for nothing resembling a reason.

I love the MH series, but I've constantly held off on it due to the godawful controls on the 3DS version (seriously, if you dont have an analog stick, they're some of the worst controls you can get). Not to mention staring down at a really small screen constantly with a game like that, which requires alot of time put into it.

The annoying thing is that if I do get it, I'm likely to be on my own with it. Used to be that most of my friends would get it too, and we'd do lots of the co-op stuff, and it was great fun. Now? All they care about is the latest Mass Effect or whatever damn thing is hyper popular. Bah. That's a whole other rant though.