NT Loneliness. (Heavy sigh)

[Harrison]

Drinking green tea at the moment, but no vodka. I only have whisky and that doesn't seem right

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Drinking green tea at the moment, but no vodka. I only have whisky and that doesn't seem right

Evidently they use green tea and whiskey in Hong Kong, Mr. Taurus. If you think doing something doesn't sound quite right, just look hard enough and you'll find someone in the world doing it.

 

[Judge]

Drinking green tea at the moment, but no vodka. I only have whisky and that doesn't seem right

Y'all just need 1 teaspoon powdered sugar, 2 oz. bourbon whiskey, 2 teaspoons water, and 4 mint leaves.

And a porch with a chair and a summer breeze to sit on to watch life go by as you drink it.

 

[clg114]

I was busy doing my facial. I just got some new philosophy facial stuff from QVC, of course, and also to put my jammies on. And I have to floss and brush my teeth. I heard Warmheart snoring.

Did you and A4H have a tiff?

I think I did ok on the test, but I'm never really sure. And Ma's doing much better. Her platelets are low but no bleeding now Thank You Jesus! I'm starting to get used to my new job better too. What's up with you?

You did OK on your test, your mom is doing better and your getting used to your new job. Sounds like a pretty good day to me.

 

[Slothra]

That's cheating, vodka goes with everything.

 

[Kari Suttle]

I hardly ever feel this way, but when I do I don't like it. Anyone else get this lonely or just me - Miss NT?

Sometimes yeah. I'm not close with my family (even if i live with them) and i have no friends. Most of the time i don't think about it but when i do it gets to me. The idea that i'll graduate, get a job i love, but have no life outside of work. A phone that never rings.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Sometimes yeah. I'm not close with my family (even if i live with them) and i have no friends. Most of the time i don't think about it but when i do it gets to me. The idea that i'll graduate, get a job i love, but have no life outside of work. A phone that never rings.

That's why I keep my phone on "silent mode" and that way I'll never know that it's not ringing - maybe it's actually ringing off the wall with lonely telemarketers. Then I think "Do I really want to talk on the phone that much?" Nope.

 

[Tia Maria]

I was busy doing my facial. I just got some new philosophy facial stuff from QVC, of course, and also to put my jammies on. And I have to floss and brush my teeth. I heard Warmheart snoring.

Did you and A4H have a tiff?

I think I did ok on the test, but I'm never really sure. And Ma's doing much better. Her platelets are low but no bleeding now Thank You Jesus! I'm starting to get used to my new job better too. What's up with you?

That's where you snuck off to!!! What facial did you do? I also love me some Philosophy!! Have purchased the jumbo sizes from QVC! Haha, well they are a good deal. I LOVE things that smell pretty, but light. Anyway, good for you! We women need to pamper ourselves from time to time. Especially after a stressful day, it feels good!

No tiff, just me being a well meaning idiot. I am sure just got too aggressive in a discussion thread ... I cannot discuss some topics civilly - yep I am one of those, an offender! I am really a live & let live person, but I hate negative attitudes, or I can't do this or can't do that attitudes. Or someone or society etc... is holding me back, down or whatever attitudes. & when I read some people on this site seeming to blame the "NT" world, or society or how things are done in general ... well I not only disagree but I want to shake some sense into them. Add to all that, if I am overtired, my patience level drops & my frustration level hikes, & I can be grumpier than even a grumpy cat!!! I wouldn't get so upset or forceful if I didn't care & if I didn't KNOW that someone CAN do something. I have no idea though - A4H may have not even read anything I wrote, nor cared about it either. No idea. I just typed away in frustration, & later thought, I hope I didn't come across as a rude, offensive A$$. I probably did! I am afraid to look!! It is only because I do care. I'm a tough love person. Maybe that kind of caring is not always helpful.

Anyway, what are your favorite Philosophy scents?

 

[Tia Maria]

I think I did ok on the test, but I'm never really sure. And Ma's doing much better. Her platelets are low but no bleeding now Thank You Jesus! I'm starting to get used to my new job better too. What's up with you?

Re. your test ...good to hear!! & even better to hear about your Mom! If you don'y mind my asking, when was she first diagnosed? Do you live nearby her? I hope you are able to spend as much time as possible with her.

 

[royinpink]

I really appreciate that you recognize this about yourself and are capable of bowing out of a thread when that happens. It's a skill. But if I may, I would like to say something about this:

I hate negative attitudes, or I can't do this or can't do that attitudes. Or someone or society etc... is holding me back, down or whatever attitudes. & when I read some people on this site seeming to blame the "NT" world, or society or how things are done in general ... well I not only disagree but I want to shake some sense into them.

I think I can understand this because one of my best friends comes from an abusive family. When he has to interact with his mom and step-dad and half-brother, he gets irritated--no, infuriated--in this way and complains about them doing some of the same things. He made it out of that situation and went to college, so why can't they? Why do they 'make excuses'? I pushed him on this until he finally admitted the real reason he felt so bad was that he couldn't do anything to help them. He was helpless. So if that is what you mean when you say you care, I can understand that. It is frustrating, and it's a lot more satisfying to be able to blame individuals than to think that it's a larger systemic problem that no one is directly responsible for and everyone would have to work to change. The latter explanation offers no psychic resolution. When something is wrong, most people's inclination is to seek fault and justice, not theoretical explanations.

The problem is that it lacks empathy with their situation, in the sense of being able to see it from their perspective and offer something genuinely helpful. The reality of a domestic violence situation in a poor family is that neither abuse nor poverty are at all easy to escape, for a whole slew of reasons (for instance, here is the 'power and control wheel' of tactics that abusers use and here are myths about domestic violence and for poverty...the first thing that comes to mind is a lesson plan I recently looked at) of which only a tiny fraction are at all within the control of those involved. Even what little control they do have may be impossible to see, too difficult to think about, and guilt- or panic- inducing. It may require a complete change in how they feel and exist in the world, it may force them to risk their lives, it may force them to depend others' help when they don't know who they can trust or if they can trust at all. In many cases, the people involved do feel that they are somehow bad, defective, and to blame for their situation, because that is how it has taught them to perceive themselves. So being angry with them will only make them feel worse, even if they are outwardly defensive.

With my friend, I asked him to critically evaluate all the advantages he'd had over his half-brother and mother--going to live with his father, finding another social circle, being gifted with intelligence, being inclined to 'escape' his problems by delving into schoolwork rather than a more destructive coping mechanism, etc.--and ask whether now, after years of established patterns, they were just as able as he was to change. And of course, like it or not, he is not responsible for their success or failure, and he has to be able to let go and not take it as his responsibility. He can support them in their struggle, or he can not, but he can't 'fix' them.

I don't think I should make the next step of comparing and contrasting it to the situation you describe, because that was not a productive discussion before, I don't want to start it again. So, I'll just leave it at that, something to think about.

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that being autistic is like being in poverty or abused in the sense that the latter two are unhealthy situations that people would generally like to escape. It just occurred to me that people might think I am implying that, and I would never want to suggest that. It's simply that those are the kinds of situations to which the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps argument is generally applied (which might in itself be worthy of note, in terms of why people do not take kindly to it here).

 

[StephF]

Glenfiiddich goes with everything. Ice of course

 

[Tia Maria]

I really appreciate that you recognize this about yourself and are capable of bowing out of a thread when that happens. It's a skill. But if I may, I would like to say something about this:



I think I can understand this because one of my best friends comes from an abusive family. When he has to interact with his mom and step-dad and half-brother, he gets irritated--no, infuriated--in this way and complains about them doing some of the same things. He made it out of that situation and went to college, so why can't they? Why do they 'make excuses'? I pushed him on this until he finally admitted the real reason he felt so bad was that he couldn't do anything to help them. He was helpless. So if that is what you mean when you say you care, I can understand that. It is frustrating, and it's a lot more satisfying to be able to blame individuals than to think that it's a larger systemic problem that no one is directly responsible for and everyone would have to work to change. The latter explanation offers no psychic resolution. When something is wrong, most people's inclination is to seek fault and justice, not theoretical explanations.

The problem is that it lacks empathy with their situation, in the sense of being able to see it from their perspective and offer something genuinely helpful. The reality of a domestic violence situation in a poor family is that neither abuse nor poverty are at all easy to escape, for a whole slew of reasons (for instance, here is the 'power and control wheel' of tactics that abusers use and here are myths about domestic violence and for poverty...the first thing that comes to mind is a lesson plan I recently looked at) of which only a tiny fraction are at all within the control of those involved. Even what little control they do have may be impossible to see, too difficult to think about, and guilt- or panic- inducing. It may require a complete change in how they feel and exist in the world, it may force them to risk their lives, it may force them to depend others' help when they don't know who they can trust or if they can trust at all. In many cases, the people involved do feel that they are somehow bad, defective, and to blame for their situation, because that is how it has taught them to perceive themselves. So being angry with them will only make them feel worse, even if they are outwardly defensive.

With my friend, I asked him to critically evaluate all the advantages he'd had over his half-brother and mother--going to live with his father, finding another social circle, being gifted with intelligence, being inclined to 'escape' his problems by delving into schoolwork rather than a more destructive coping mechanism, etc.--and ask whether now, after years of established patterns, they were just as able as he was to change. And of course, like it or not, he is not responsible for their success or failure, and he has to be able to let go and not take it as his responsibility. He can support them in their struggle, or he can not, but he can't 'fix' them.

I don't think I should make the next step of comparing and contrasting it to the situation you describe, because that was not a productive discussion before, I don't want to start it again. So, I'll just leave it at that, something to think about.

ETA: I don't mean to suggest that being autistic is like being in poverty or abused in the sense that the latter two are unhealthy situations that people would generally like to escape. It just occurred to me that people might think I am implying that, and I would never want to suggest that. It's simply that those are the kinds of situations to which the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps argument is generally applied (which might in itself be worthy of note, in terms of why people do not take kindly to it here).

I think I understand, & I thank you for your understanding, as well as for sharing that very thoughtful reply. It means a lot to me. Just so you know, I don't lack empathy for other people's given situations. I guess I lack an understanding of how someone cannot be moved or compelled to make a better decision, or choose a different direction, when it's brought to their attention as possibly being a better path. And my 'caring' is exactly that, like your friend, a desire to help & also "fix" things for someone when they seem to be struggling or hurting. I'm learning .... & I try to be self-aware, but like my garden, I'm a perennial work in progress. I value relationships with others, & would never want to hurt anyone. I appreciate your insights Royinpink. Thank you.

 

[royinpink]

I think I understand, & I thank you for your understanding, as well as for sharing that very thoughtful reply. It means a lot to me. Just so you know, I don't lack empathy for other people's given situations. I guess I lack an understanding of how someone cannot be moved or compelled to make a better decision, or choose a different direction, when it's brought to their attention as possibly being a better path. And my 'caring' is exactly that, like your friend, a desire to help & also "fix" things for someone when they seem to be struggling or hurting. I'm learning .... & I try to be self-aware, but like my garden, I'm a perennial work in progress. I value relationships with others, & would never want to hurt anyone. I appreciate your insights Royinpink. Thank you.

There are different kinds of empathy. I am not trying to suggest that you do not have empathy, but what you are describing sounds more like either sympathy or emotional empathy. The two major kinds are emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy involves feeling directly what another feels. Cognitive empathy involves seeing the situation from someone else's point of view. Narcissists and psychopaths tend to have cognitive empathy without emotional empathy and use it to manipulate people. Autistic people tend to have the emotional empathy without cognitive empathy and 'just not get it', but over time may develop ways to cope like logically working out step by step what the other person's perspective would be or using their awesome visualization skills (personal strategy there...). These coping skills take time and often do not appear 'natural' to others. Cognitive and emotional empathy are neurologically distinct processes. Most typical people are able to use both to be able to intuitively understand and feel for others.

However, when encountering a situation very different from one's own, typical people falter in their cognitive empathy. They intuit based on themselves--what they would do and feel, they imagine, in that situation--without having lived it and experienced how it changes their perspective. This is the kind of empathy problem I meant. It is normal and doesn't mean you are a cold person, but it is something to be aware of.

I hope I'm not coming off as a cold, distant observer here. I tend to get carried away in the analysis.

Sidenote: Sometimes I wonder, given that this is a problem in cognitive empathy that neurotypical people have all the time, if autistic people really don't lack cognitive empathy altogether but rather can't use it because their perspective is so radically different from neurotypicals. Like, maybe put a bunch of autistic people together and suddenly find that their ability to intuit and take on others' perspectives jumps. But probably that's not the case...wishful thinking.

 

[StephF]

I totally understand. I can be seen as a cold and aloof, distant observer. Its not that I don't care but a lot of the time I don't get the social niceties.
It just "doesn't compute". To draw a similarity with Star Trek's computer when asked a question I have insufficient data to draw a conclusion.

 

[Tia Maria]

There are different kinds of empathy. I am not trying to suggest that you do not have empathy, but what you are describing sounds more like either sympathy or emotional empathy. The two major kinds are emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Emotional empathy involves feeling directly what another feels. Cognitive empathy involves seeing the situation from someone else's point of view. Narcissists and psychopaths tend to have cognitive empathy without emotional empathy and use it to manipulate people. Autistic people tend to have the emotional empathy without cognitive empathy and 'just not get it', but over time may develop ways to cope like logically working out step by step what the other person's perspective would be or using their awesome visualization skills (personal strategy there...). These coping skills take time and often do not appear 'natural' to others. Cognitive and emotional empathy are neurologically distinct processes. Most typical people are able to use both to be able to intuitively understand and feel for others.

However, when encountering a situation very different from one's own, typical people falter in their cognitive empathy. They intuit based on themselves--what they would do and feel, they imagine, in that situation--without having lived it and experienced how it changes their perspective. This is the kind of empathy problem I meant. It is normal and doesn't mean you are a cold person, but it is something to be aware of.

I hope I'm not coming off as a cold, distant observer here. I tend to get carried away in the analysis.

Sidenote: Sometimes I wonder, given that this is a problem in cognitive empathy that neurotypical people have all the time, if autistic people really don't lack cognitive empathy altogether but rather can't use it because their perspective is so radically different from neurotypicals. Like, maybe put a bunch of autistic people together and suddenly find that their ability to intuit and take on others' perspectives jumps. But probably that's not the case...wishful thinking.

Thank you Royinpink for the further clarification. It's very interesting, & you understand it in depth & far better than I do. I do have emotional empathy, but I guess lack the cognitive empathy, not intentionally of course. I am a very caring person, but also very practical & pragmatic. A survivor personality type of sorts. It is not so much that I extrapolate my own feelings onto others when encountering situations very different than my own ... but that I have a very pragmatic viewpoint ... almost that the 'feelings' don't matter as much as 'just getting it done' kind of approach. Also that I can 'teach' someone else, step by step, & you can do it too - whatever "it" may be. Maybe that is in fact "cold" (although people who know me say I am very warm). And I think it's also part of my survival techniques. If that makes any sense. You have given me a lot to think about. And I will follow up to read your links & some other things you have posted. I am learning from you, & some others here too, & I appreciate that. <3 I've also been doing much reflecting, & wondering too ...

 

[Tia Maria]

And ahh, good, Spiller is here so my Karma points will go back up! Yay! They get quite out of balance from my over participation in a couple game threads! Thank you Spiller! You make me smile!

 

[royinpink]

I haven't responded because I've been very overloaded recently and it is difficult to manage...life. When I initially read your reply, I had my usual 'error correction' type of response and figured I'd better sit on it. I'm not sure that's improved, but I'll try my best.

Even having a conversation like this is not easy and probably only possible for me because it's happening online, in written form, where I can collect my thoughts and express them more exactly. In real life, when I'm not understood, I get stressed, and when I get stressed, I stop thinking in words, and when I stop thinking in words, I can't make myself understood, so I get more stressed...until I melt down.

It is not so much that I extrapolate my own feelings onto others when encountering situations very different than my own ... but that I have a very pragmatic viewpoint ... almost that the 'feelings' don't matter as much as 'just getting it done' kind of approach. Also that I can 'teach' someone else, step by step, & you can do it too - whatever "it" may be.

This seems to me to be exactly what I meant by intuiting based on yourself. You have your own system, which works for you, that you rely on when you are in difficult circumstances. You see someone else in difficult circumstances, and you imagine your "getting it done" approach will work just as well for them, and you don't see why it doesn't. This is shown when you say you can teach someone else to do whatever 'it' may be. But the thing is, someone else's way of being in the world may just not be compatible with your approach, and the steps for them are different, and the motivation is different, and it just doesn't work like it does for you. They are the square peg trying to fit into the round hole, and eventually, some say 'Screw this!'

I am happy I connected what you were saying to my past experience because otherwise, I would have had no clue where you were coming from and your words would simply have been hurtful to me. They would have been hurtful because they deny the validity of my and others' perspective, our experience of life. I read them and feel that to you, your value system is the only one, and if I don't measure up to it, I need to try harder, and if I critique it, I am just "making excuses." My efforts will never be good enough, and I don't get to have a say. That makes me sad and frustrated. But then I remembered my friend and thought, maybe she is really not trying to be hurtful and silence me, maybe she is honest when she says she really cares. So I tried to explain.

I responded now because I found another aspie's description of this kind of frustration that may make sense to you. This comes from her reflection on attempting to improve her social anxiety through exposure her whole life and eventually realizing it would not get better (after this one--exposure therapy--she goes on to describe five other strategies she's tried):

For years and years I thought if I just socialized more, if I just connected more, and tried harder to be like everyone else, my endurance level for social gatherings would improve and my anxiety levels would decrease. I believed that through repeated exposure that things would get better. That hasn’t happened.

I don’t have a fear and/or phobia to any one thing or event; therefore there is nothing I can focus on overcoming or having less fear about. My anxiety isn’t caused by anything I can pinpoint. My anxiety is caused by the way I process the stimuli in my environment and the way I respond to my surroundings. I am hyper-aware and my senses are turned up to the highest degree. I am also, despite self-training and studies, unsure of how to act in a social gathering, (e.g, how much to share, when to share, when to stop, when to respond, how to stand, how to look, when to be less honest, etc.); and as a result of my uncertainty, I have a constant inner voice reminding me of how to be. A voice that also self-corrects continually.

I need and long for structure and routine. My fear can be reduced if the same events happen in a similar way. However, inevitably changes occur. To say I will get better with practice or exposure is not an accurate statement. First of all, I am not wrong or in need of improvement. I am uniquely wired. One would not tell a person with a visual impairment that if she kept staring at a picture on the wall the image would become clearer, and one would not tell a person with a hearing impairment to repeatedly listen to a song on high-volume to improve his or her hearing. In the same line of thinking, one cannot tell me to continue going outside of my comfort-zone, to eventually gain a sense of security. I do not have the physical capacity. This is not biologically possible for me.
​

ETA: Also, I am grateful that you are open to listening and learning. I try to be, too. It is all any of us can do.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I haven't responded because I've been very overloaded recently and it is difficult to manage...life. When I initially read your reply, I had my usual 'error correction' type of response and figured I'd better sit on it. I'm not sure that's improved, but I'll try my best.

Even having a conversation like this is not easy and probably only possible for me because it's happening online, in written form, where I can collect my thoughts and express them more exactly. In real life, when I'm not understood, I get stressed, and when I get stressed, I stop thinking in words, and when I stop thinking in words, I can't make myself understood, so I get more stressed...until I melt down.



This seems to me to be exactly what I meant by intuiting based on yourself. You have your own system, which works for you, that you rely on when you are in difficult circumstances. You see someone else in difficult circumstances, and you imagine your "getting it done" approach will work just as well for them, and you don't see why it doesn't. This is shown when you say you can teach someone else to do whatever 'it' may be. But the thing is, someone else's way of being in the world may just not be compatible with your approach, and the steps for them are different, and the motivation is different, and it just doesn't work like it does for you. They are the square peg trying to fit into the round hole, and eventually, some say 'Screw this!'

I am happy I connected what you were saying to my past experience because otherwise, I would have had no clue where you were coming from and your words would simply have been hurtful to me. They would have been hurtful because they deny the validity of my and others' perspective, our experience of life. I read them and feel that to you, your value system is the only one, and if I don't measure up to it, I need to try harder, and if I critique it, I am just "making excuses." I don't get to have a say. That makes me sad and frustrated. But then I remembered my friend and thought, maybe she is really not trying to be hurtful and silence me, maybe she is honest when she says she really cares. So I tried to explain.

I responded now because I found another aspie's description of this kind of frustration that may make sense to you. This comes from her reflection on attempting to improve her social anxiety through exposure her whole life and eventually realizing it would not get better (after this one--exposure therapy--she goes on to describe five other strategies she's tried):

For years and years I thought if I just socialized more, if I just connected more, and tried harder to be like everyone else, my endurance level for social gatherings would improve and my anxiety levels would decrease. I believed that through repeated exposure that things would get better. That hasn’t happened.

I don’t have a fear and/or phobia to any one thing or event; therefore there is nothing I can focus on overcoming or having less fear about. My anxiety isn’t caused by anything I can pinpoint. My anxiety is caused by the way I process the stimuli in my environment and the way I respond to my surroundings. I am hyper-aware and my senses are turned up to the highest degree. I am also, despite self-training and studies, unsure of how to act in a social gathering, (e.g, how much to share, when to share, when to stop, when to respond, how to stand, how to look, when to be less honest, etc.); and as a result of my uncertainty, I have a constant inner voice reminding me of how to be. A voice that also self-corrects continually.

I need and long for structure and routine. My fear can be reduced if the same events happen in a similar way. However, inevitably changes occur. To say I will get better with practice or exposure is not an accurate statement. First of all, I am not wrong or in need of improvement. I am uniquely wired. One would not tell a person with a visual impairment that if she kept staring at a picture on the wall the image would become clearer, and one would not tell a person with a hearing impairment to repeatedly listen to a song on high-volume to improve his or her hearing. In the same line of thinking, one cannot tell me to continue going outside of my comfort-zone, to eventually gain a sense of security. I do not have the physical capacity. This is not biologically possible for me.​

If I was actually having this "get together" in my home, I'd say "Pull up a chair and have a nice cup of green tea. We're watching a BBC movie. No talking is necessary."

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Didn't mean to fall asleep. I had to do some self-care elsewhere, and you know people always point when you stick your back leg up in the air to tend to those sensitive spots. Unkind people want to put a flag on my paw, which means another round of paw maintenance.

 

[royinpink]

If I was actually having this "get together" in my home, I'd say "Pull up a chair and have a nice cup of green tea. We're watching a BBC movie. No talking is necessary."

Oh god, that would be so nice. I could really use some company that doesn't feel the need to talk right now.