On the subject of accuracy vs politeness

[jsilver256]

Recently, one of my best friends got really upset with me when I, innocently, commented on something she said. She was talking about sending her kids to camp, and I said some summer camps really aren't what's expected and was about to talk about my own experience. She got furious and started aggressively asking me (almost shouting) if I thought she hadn't vetted the place.

She most likely got hurt because it was a worry that was on the very top of her mind about her children.

But to distance oneself's emotional core from another person's words, is IMO just a basic life skill.

 

[vergil96]

I can be rather blunt.

Me too, but I rather lose patience than not know how to not be. I get frustrated and bored from beating around the bush.

 

[Neia]

Me too, but I rather lose patience than not know how to not be. I get frustrated and bored from beating around the bush.

I'm blunt because I can't read the situation and give an appropriate reply.

 

[Misty Avich]

I can be rather blunt.

That's why I prefer text chatting. It gives me the possibility to think about what the other person is saying, and try to respond appropriately.
And even then, I can still offend people.

Recently, one of my best friends got really upset with me when I, innocently, commented on something she said. She was talking about sending her kids to camp, and I said some summer camps really aren't what's expected and was about to talk about my own experience. She got furious and started aggressively asking me (almost shouting) if I thought she hadn't vetted the place.

That was a surprising one... I felt hurt. What's the point of having a conversation if you can't share your thoughts and experiences?

I apologised and didn't say anything about the subject anymore.

Hmm, was it really the wrong thing to say though? I mean, imagine an autistic person was complaining here about their NT friend saying exactly what you said about the camp. I bet you any money you like their (the NT's) comment would be justified. I've seen that happen all the time on these forums and it irks me to no end. It's like there's always a logical reason why an NT would say something hurtful (not what you said was that hurtful anyway, your friend needs to grow a pair), but if an autistic says the same thing it's inappropriate in every context.

 

[Neia]

Hmm, was it really the wrong thing to say though? I mean, imagine an autistic person was complaining here about their NT friend saying exactly what you said about the camp. I bet you any money you like their (the NT's) comment would be justified. I've seen that happen all the time on these forums and it irks me to no end. It's like there's always a logical reason why an NT would say something hurtful (not what you said was that hurtful anyway, your friend needs to grow a pair), but if an autistic says the same thing it's inappropriate in every context.

I'm still learning that.

Not to feel guilty for things I say that are me sharing my own experience, or when I ask a question because I'm in doubt about something.

 

[Misty Avich]

I'm still learning that.

Not to feel guilty for things I say that are me sharing my own experience, or when I ask a question because I'm in doubt about something.

That's one factor I hate about having ASD - it seems like we're always made to feel guilty for our actions, yet so many of us have been bullied by so many NTs in our lives and I wonder how many of them actually feel guilty for it? More likely they forget, while we might suffer with our mental health because of it for the rest of our lives. Just doesn't seem fair. Autism is an unfair condition to have. It's why I don't tell people I have it (beyond this forum) because I hate the lectures people start giving me about people's feelings, when I already know about people's feelings. Gets on my nerves. I've never actually had those lectures from people who DON'T know I have ASD, so something about ASD must just make people (NT and AS) automatically connect autism and empathy. Really rattles my cage it does.

 

[Misty Avich]

Also I get the double standard idea from something I read about autism somewhere, and I don't think the person who wrote it really thought it through. It was ages ago and I don't know where I'd read it so I can't post a link or anything.

Anyway it started off with a scenario where an Aspie's NT neighbour had an argument with their spouse about putting the trash out, so it made the NT unfriendly to the Aspie because the NT was in a bad mood. The Aspie took it personally and thought the NT was being rude. Then the Aspie was described as "this is the typical lacking of empathy on the Aspie's part, because they're taking everything personally instead of understanding that other people have problems too."
Then a bit further on it mentioned about Aspies who are having a bad day (sensory overload, anxiety, meltdown, etc) are being selfish if they ignore their NT friends/neighbours because typically people are going to take it personally when an Aspie is not engaging and we should respect the NT's feelings in that regard.

So the person who wrote that just contradicted themselves there. And I do see that same contradiction implied in a lot of articles or other information about autism.

It's like when an Aspie has a problem, we can't expect NTs to read our minds or understand we might have a problem and not take our actions personally.
But when an NT has a problem, we are expected to read their minds and understand they may have a problem and not to take their actions personally.

Yes I know context is everything but in this both the contexts are identical but just the neurologies are swapped.

 

[Neia]

Also I get the double standard idea from something I read about autism somewhere, and I don't think the person who wrote it really thought it through. It was ages ago and I don't know where I'd read it so I can't post a link or anything.

Anyway it started off with a scenario where an Aspie's NT neighbour had an argument with their spouse about putting the trash out, so it made the NT unfriendly to the Aspie because the NT was in a bad mood. The Aspie took it personally and thought the NT was being rude. Then the Aspie was described as "this is the typical lacking of empathy on the Aspie's part, because they're taking everything personally instead of understanding that other people have problems too."
Then a bit further on it mentioned about Aspies who are having a bad day (sensory overload, anxiety, meltdown, etc) are being selfish if they ignore their NT friends/neighbours because typically people are going to take it personally when an Aspie is not engaging and we should respect the NT's feelings in that regard.

So the person who wrote that just contradicted themselves there. And I do see that same contradiction implied in a lot of articles or other information about autism.

It's like when an Aspie has a problem, we can't expect NTs to read our minds or understand we might have a problem and not take our actions personally.
But when an NT has a problem, we are expected to read their minds and understand they may have a problem and not to take their actions personally.

Yes I know context is everything but in this both the contexts are identical but just the neurologies are swapped.

Double standards.

I think of it like the world at large wanting me to be able to run with a permanently broken leg, while they are allowed to refuse to run because they are wearing unfashionable shoes.

 

[Misty Avich]

Double standards.

I think of it like the world at large wanting me to be able to run with a permanently broken leg, while they are allowed to refuse to run because they are wearing unfashionable shoes.

Good analogy.

 

[Boogs]

Maybe we should understand that the world of the neurotypical's is the broken one, and while we may be minority, it doesn't mean we are the broken one's?

We need to have sympathy for these poor people who can only live in a world of emotions with which to make decisions and form opinions! (he says in a most patronising manner! Revenge on the normal's is mine at last! )

If we were gone, they'd lose a lot of those unique minds that make real things - engineers, scientists, artists (of all media), philosophers, and so on.
If they were gone, we lose all the discrimination, bullying, lack of thinking, damaging behaviours, and and and ...

 

[Misty Avich]

Nah, it's because humans aren't perfect, but if autistic people aren't perfect then oh dear oh dearie me.

 

[Misty Avich]

Maybe we should understand that the world of the neurotypical's is the broken one, and while we may be minority, it doesn't mean we are the broken one's?

We need to have sympathy for these poor people who can only live in a world of emotions with which to make decisions and form opinions! (he says in a most patronising manner! Revenge on the normal's is mine at last! )

I must be normal then, as I am more governed by emotions and opinions than rational thinking.

If we were gone, they'd lose a lot of those unique minds that make real things - engineers, scientists, artists (of all media), philosophers, and so on.
If they were gone, we lose all the discrimination, bullying, lack of thinking, damaging behaviours, and and and ...

I work with engineers but they all seem to be NTs, especially the really loud guy, he is what I call "extreme NT". I couldn't learn engineering to save my life.

 

[Boogs]

I must be normal then, as I am more governed by emotions and opinions than rational thinking.

Oh no! I really didn't mean to insult you by suggesting that!

I work with engineers but they all seem to be NTs, especially the really loud guy, he is what I call "extreme NT". I couldn't learn engineering to save my life.

Not all of course! But my suspicion is that statistically the ND one's tend to be more likely not to think outside the box, but to be outside the box!
But certain types of autistics are remarkably good at these types of things (considering technology and science etc). I worked for 12 years in a university chemistry department, and it was full of weirdos aplenty (I should know being one of them). The phd students especially were often only ever outside their lab to sleep and eat and return again, 7 days a week. Who needs friends when you've a Fourier Transform Nuclear Magnetic Resonance spectrometer to play with?
And spent another 12 years working in a pharmaceutical drug research institute, and likewise, full of the same sorts of geeks and oddballs.

But these were all people working on cutting edge research, testing out new ideas and principles.
It wasn't until I then transferred to more commercial based work than I started having problems with others who seemed mostly to have their heads up their lower digestive system.

And while you may not be engineer material, that doesn't negate what other qualities you can bring to the table?

 

[Jonn]

I react very emotionally when I perceive that someone (animal or human) is powerless and being bullied, being put upon.
Then my reaction is visceral. I feel extreme anger, rage, towards the brute who is being mean, and an urge to protect the one being hurt.

I do too.
When I was a child, I would "burst into tears" if I saw a dead animal on the road.
But that is a black&white situation.

Feeling empathy/sympathy in an "garden variety" emotional situation is different, I have determined.
This is where cognitive empathy comes into play.
Sheldon Cooper still needs to work on this.

 

[Jonn]

I never back down when pushed though, I have a stubbornness that isn't matched by many.

Push me in a corner and I become a "Honey Badger" mentally, at times.
My mind is my weapon.

Spoiler

https://www.travelbutlers.com/safari/wildlife-guide/honey-badger.asp

"Traditional" autistics are are known for their stubbornness.
I am one such beast when pushed to the limit.
But it is rare these days.
No need to fret...

Spoiler

...Bwahahahahaha...

 

[Neia]

Push me in a corner and I become a "Honey Badger" mentally, at times.
My mind is my weapon.

Spoiler

https://www.travelbutlers.com/safari/wildlife-guide/honey-badger.asp

"Traditional" autistics are are known for their stubbornness.
I am one such beast when pushed to the limit.
But it is rare these days.
No need to fret...

Spoiler

...Bwahahahahaha...

My mother used to say something like "You could be sitting on a rock and affirm it was made of wood."

 

[Outdated]

My mother used to say something like "You could be sitting on a rock and affirm it was made of wood."

My mother told me that I'd cut off my own nose just to spite my face. I said "Yes.". I was 8 years old.

 

[Jonn]

Nah, it's because humans aren't perfect, but if autistic people aren't perfect then oh dear oh dearie me.

You gotta luv dem double standards.

 

[Jonn]

Double standards.

I think of it like the world at large wanting me to be able to run with a permanently broken leg, while they are allowed to refuse to run because they are wearing unfashionable shoes.

Agreed.

I use the same sort of analogy.

I read a book about 44 years ago called "The Little Prince".
The author implicitly attacked people who had difficulty with life and became disillusioned as a result.
I have never forgotten the lack of insight that person had about human psychological/neurological diversity.

Overall, it was a good book, but for unenlightened children.
Come to think about it, it probably did a lot of damage to some who "didn't fit the bill".

 

[Jonn]

It's like when an Aspie has a problem, we can't expect NTs to read our minds or understand we might have a problem and not take our actions personally.
But when an NT has a problem, we are expected to read their minds and understand they may have a problem and not to take their actions personally.

Agreed...

I think the main problem might be a lack of understanding of neurological differences.
And since NTs make about 90% of the population, they get to set the rules.