On the subject of accuracy vs politeness

[Outdated]

Somewhere I read that autistic people can't feel compassion either. But I think that's false.
I think it depends of the circumstances.

I can feel lots of compassion for animals and anyone I see as defenceless. Other people, that I don't empathise with, might be crying their eyes out next to me and I know I should feel sorrow for them but don't.

I only heard the term "intellectual empathy" for the first time when reading this thread. Thanks @jsilver256 it fits. It describes me well. I grew up in one of those rough places at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder and I had to learn at a very early age how to try and judge what other people were thinking and feeling.

I got good at it, as long as there's not too much other noise around and I can hear properly I'm a very good communicator. I'm very sensitive to other people's emotions and subtle nuances of language and can quite often steer conversations in directions that I want them to go and get people agreeing with me. In short, I can be a good con man when I want to be.

As sensitive as I am to other people's emotions though, how I react to that is an intellectual decision. In much the same way as most of my facial expressions and body language can be described as a mask, so too is my empathy. I know what other people are feeling most of the time but I don't feel it, I just have a very good understanding of it and know lots of different ways to respond.

I was always very quick with witty responses in conversations too, getting people to smile is a good way to get them on side, but as good as I am my mouth often gets the better of me too. I have a tendency to be a bit too honest at times.

 

[Cryptid]

My question would be - whose truth?
Truth is subject to whomever is thinking on it.

You have confused truth with your perception of it -- conflating objective truth with subjective perception.

There is only one Truth. It is attitude, belief, education (or lack thereof), and other factors that affect our perceptions of the Truth.

Example: A certain object reflects light most strongly in the 625–740 nanometer wavelength range. A person with normal vision will perceive this hue as 'red'. A person with color-blindness would perceive this hue as a shade of grey instead, and their perception does not change the fact that the object reflects light most strongly in the 625–740 nanometer wavelength range.

Now, if you* want to talk about philosophy, politics, and/or religion -- concepts and ideologies -- then one person's 'truth' is another person's 'fallacy', 'delusion', or 'blasphemy/heresy'.

Believe if you* will that the Flying Spaghetti Monster delivers candy to good boys and girls from the back of their Invisible Pink Unicorn -- that's your* right. I will believe that the universe instead operates within the parameters determined by scientists through the Scientific Method, and that these parameters are constant throughout the universe, and regardless of an observer's frame of reference.

(*You, your, you're, and yours are used here in the collective sense.)

 

[Cryptid]

Agreed.

"Raw" Truth has to be interpreted.
But the Truth remains "untarnished", (Elden Ring style.)
Obviously, context must be considered here.

This reminds me of the parable of the three blind mice men and their interpretations of what an elephant was.

Sadly, the interpretation you mentioned all too often requires "dumbing down" the raw truth for the masses; even more sad is that something vital always gets lost in the translation.

It was the mice's limited perception that resulted in the multiplicity of their interpretations.

 

[Jonn]

It is a very limiting factor, and the source of much guilt for me...
"Did I just upset someone for no reason?"
"Was I rude just then, should I have just stayed quiet?"
ad nauseum!

I have tamed self-flagellation to the point it barely exists.
I can't remember the last time I did that.

Spoiler

BTW, what's your name again?

Stoicism and understanding the origins of intrusive thoughts "has made me strong like bull".

Also:
I embrace the principles of:
-We do the best we can under the circumstances presented.
-"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
-Contrary to popular belief, even I am not infallible.
So, be kind to yourself.

This may seem to be in conflict to my previous statement of having an over energetic conscience, but believe me, both can work in tandem, and as always, context is important.

 

[Jonn]

Truth is truth whether our opinion agrees with it or not.
A fact is a fact, no matter if we witness it or not.
Nothing can't change that.

Obviously, you aren't a Post-modernist.
Kudos.

 

[Boogs]

You have confused truth with your perception of it -- conflating objective truth with subjective perception.

There is only one Truth. It is attitude, belief, education (or lack thereof), and other factors that affect our perceptions of the Truth.

I disagree, you didn't hear my case - I defined what I consider the word 'truth' to mean.
What you've said above is anathema to me and how I think, and what I've concluded from my life so far.
Maybe your truth is like that, but that just fits my argument that there are many types of truth, and that is yours.
I may not like it, but it's yours, so that's your truth, but to say mine is wrong, is just saying you can only see your own truth?

Example: A certain object reflects light most strongly in the 625–740 nanometer wavelength range. A person with normal vision will perceive this hue as 'red'. A person with color-blindness would perceive this hue as a shade of grey instead, and their perception does not change the fact that the object reflects light most strongly in the 625–740 nanometer wavelength range.

Colour is essentially a consistent hallucination that your brain uses to identify the difference in wavelengths in a fashion that aids your survival. Nothing more. To consider 'colour' to be comparable between people is as meaningful as expecting all humans to think the same way. Colour doesn't equate to any truth, it's simply a perceived experience subjective to the one perceiving it.

Now, if you* want to talk about philosophy, politics, and/or religion -- concepts and ideologies -- then one person's 'truth' is another person's 'fallacy', 'delusion', or 'blasphemy/heresy'.

Exactly! How many types of truth are there, and which one's are being discussed?

Believe if you* will that the Flying Spaghetti Monster delivers candy to good boys and girls from the back of their Invisible Pink Unicorn -- that's your* right. I will believe that the universe instead operates within the parameters determined by scientists through the Scientific Method, and that these parameters are constant throughout the universe, and regardless of an observer's frame of reference.

(*You, your, you're, and yours are used here in the collective sense.)

This is exactly what I was saying. The flying spaghetti monster may well be true to someone, but that doesn't make it a fact!
But some truths are facts, but then some are spiritual, and some are personal, and some are scientific, and on and on.
Which is why I much prefer to stick to facts than truth, because some peoples truth is a lie to me. But a fact is evidence, not supposition based on something (evidence or fantasy or other).

But this is getting too off topic I think (as usual when I'm posting! )

 

[Neia]

I only heard the term "intellectual empathy" for the first time when reading this thread. Thanks @jsilver256 it fits. It describes me well. I grew up in one of those rough places at the lower end of the socio-economic ladder and I had to learn at a very early age how to try and judge what other people were thinking and feeling.

I got good at it, as long as there's not too much other noise around and I can hear properly I'm a very good communicator. I'm very sensitive to other people's emotions and subtle nuances of language and can quite often steer conversations in directions that I want them to go and get people agreeing with me. In short, I can be a good con man when I want to be.

As sensitive as I am to other people's emotions though, how I react to that is an intellectual decision. In much the same way as most of my facial expressions and body language can be described as a mask, so too is my empathy. I know what other people are feeling most of the time but I don't feel it, I just have a very good understanding of it and know lots of different ways to respond.

I was always very quick with witty responses in conversations too, getting people to smile is a good way to get them on side, but as good as I am my mouth often gets the better of me too. I have a tendency to be a bit too honest at times.

I react very emotionally when I perceive that someone (animal or human) is powerless and being bullied, being put upon.
Then my reaction is visceral. I feel extreme anger, rage, towards the brute who is being mean, and an urge to protect the one being hurt.

I relate to the person being bullied because I was bullied. I know how painful and scary that is.

But when someone is going on about how sad they are because of something that to me doesn't seem important, I can consciously acknowledge their pain, because they are telling me how much they are hurting, but I can't really empathise. But I still feel sad at some level, because I know they are sad. So I learnt to say the right things to try to comfort them.

Mind you... it took me decades to learn how to react like that, and I still look like deer in headlights at least some if the time.

 

[Outdated]

I react very emotionally when I perceive that someone (animal or human) is powerless and being bullied, being put upon.
Then my reaction is visceral. I feel extreme anger, rage, towards the brute who is being mean, and an urge to protect the one being hurt.

That's a side of me I never really understood, I'm very much the same and my responses automatic. I'm not someone that just stands there taking videos for TikTok. Yet when it comes to defending myself it's 50/50 wether I get angry or just feel saddened by it. I never back down when pushed though, I have a stubbornness that isn't matched by many.

 

[Neia]

That's a side of me I never really understood, I'm very much the same and my responses automatic. I'm not someone that just stands there taking videos for TikTok. Yet when it comes to defending myself it's 50/50 wether I get angry or just feel saddened by it. I never back down when pushed though, I have a stubbornness that isn't matched by many.

Yeah... my reaction when someone is trying to hurt me usually is "O good grief... not another one." I'll probably, innerly, roll my eyes and pretend I didn't notice.

Then again... I'm the pressure-cooker type.
If I'm pushed and knocked over too many times, there comes a point when I'll explode. And then the person, or persons, nearby at the time get it.
I don't usually respond physically, unless the situation warrants it, but I can have a very sharp tongue.

I'll regret it afterwards, but then the damage will have been done.

 

[Outdated]

I don't usually respond physically, unless the situation warrants it, but I can have a very sharp tongue.

When I was little I stopped talking for a while, and my grade 3 teacher talked to Mum and got her to take me to see and old bishop for elocution lessons. Or as he put it, how to deliver a sermon without the benefit of a microphone and how to read with perfect diction and project my voice without yelling.

Mum soon regretted taking me to those lessons, and there's plenty of people that can attest I'm pretty good at giving a sermon.

It's not often anyone actually hits me, they usually back down.

 

[Misty Avich]

I'd rather be polite than brutally honest, when talking to someone directly, even online (unless I'm provoked). I don't have the heart to tell someone what I really think of them, although if I trust them enough I may impulsively say stuff I don't like about someone else and just hope to God they don't tell them I said that. Nine times out of ten they don't, if they're a good friend (as I wouldn't either had they said the same to me about someone) but it has happened before and it put me in a very awkward position. So my lesson is to be careful whom I tell certain things to.

 

[Neia]

When I was little I stopped talking for a while, and my grade 3 teacher talked to Mum and got her to take me to see and old bishop for elocution lessons. Or as he put it, how to deliver a sermon without the benefit of a microphone and how to read with perfect diction and project my voice without yelling.

Mum soon regretted taking me to those lessons, and there's plenty of people that can attest I'm pretty good at giving a sermon.

It's not often anyone actually hits me, they usually back down.

The last person who tried to physically harm me got away with a very nasty bite on his hand and a face gouged to a bloody mess.

I got some bruises and a severe case of hatred, a desire to rip his throat off.

 

[Outdated]

The last person who tried to physically harm me got away with a very nasty bite on his hand and a face gouged to a bloody mess.

My sister was always a fighter, but no hissing and scratching with her, she usually opens with a headbutt. 5 foot nothing and built like a pencil but she was fast. She had a bad habit of joining in other people's domestic arguments, often violently. She grew out of that as she got older, but a fair bit older than most people would think normal. She was still starting pub brawls in to her 30s.

 

[Neia]

I'd rather be polite than brutally honest, when talking to someone directly, even online (unless I'm provoked). I don't have the heart to tell someone what I really think of them, although if I trust them enough I may impulsively say stuff I don't like about someone else and just hope to God they don't tell them I said that. Nine times out of ten they don't, if they're a good friend (as I wouldn't either had they said the same to me about someone) but it has happened before and it put me in a very awkward position. So my lesson is to be careful whom I tell certain things to.

I get it.

I've had employers who were narcissistic.
They'd pretend to be sweet and kind, all the while trying to manipulate me.

I didn't see the truth at first and genuinely believed they were awesome people. Till someone pointed a couple of things to me and my jaw dropped.

Here labour laws say that anyone who works for others has a right to 5 days of holiday fir each 3 months or work, and an extra month of salary to go on holiday.
My bosses weren't giving me the holiday time and were "granting" me the bonus I lawfully had a right to, acting as if I should be grateful to them for giving it to me. WHEN they actually gave me the money! Because most years they didn't even give it to me.

When I realised the truth I started paying attention to hiw they spoke to me, the things they said and how they acted towards me. And O started seeing the truth.
How they cut me off every time I spoke about anything, how they subtly threatened me to do whatever they wanted, how they trued to manipulate me.

However... I knew that I couldn't say anything to anyone if I wanted to keep the job for the meantime. So if people tried to disrespect them in their back, I'd always say that they were wonderful people. The best bosses I'd ever had.

The top dog was a very manipulative person, capable of tricking a snake into tying itself into knots.

So... I just kept my mouth shut till I was able to get another position. And then... what's the positive thing into badmouthing your firmer boss to the current one? So

 

[Neia]

My sister was always a fighter, but no hissing and scratching with her, she usually opens with a headbutt. 5 foot nothing and built like a pencil but she was fast. She had a bad habit of joining in other people's domestic arguments, often violently. She grew out of that as she got older, but a fair bit older than most people would think normal. She was still starting pub brawls in to her 30s.

I never started a fight.

I try to evade confrontations as much as possible.

But everyone has limits mine just tend to be a bit higher than most people I know.

Guess it comes with the strong drive to not hurt or offend others.

 

[vergil96]

I'm not always nice but it's not a result of lack of empathy or not understanding what others are feeling. Sometimes I can't quite read someone's body language in the given moment, but I pick up how they feel othwrwise or know it from experience. It's not an issue with empathy in general, I have a lot of empathy, both emotional and cognitive. I can feel other people's emotions when I see them most often. I have a good understanding of people (cognitive empathy) even if they don't show what they are feeling. When it comes to not being nice, I'd rather get things done than approach them in a very roundabout manner and waste time and energy on it.

 

[Misty Avich]

Some autistic people like to label other autistic people as "lacking empathy" for not agreeing with them or for just being blunt or whatever. I find this can be very triggering, especially when some of us pride ourselves as an empathetic person and tick most the boxes of what having normal empathy is.

I have both emotional and cognitive empathy even if I don't always demonstrate it directly on forums but it doesn't mean I deserve to be branded as lacking empathy by users, as I feel it's just pointing fingers and name-calling. Even users I don't get on that well with here, I still wouldn't yell at them that they lack empathy, because in reality they probably have loads of empathy in general but just happen to disagree on my views or not understand what I'm feeling.
But I also know that it isn't always about me. You don't have to understand everybody in the world to be an empathetic person.

 

[Neia]

Some autistic people like to label other autistic people as "lacking empathy" for not agreeing with them or for just being blunt or whatever. I find this can be very triggering, especially when some of us pride ourselves as an empathetic person and tick most the boxes of what having normal empathy is.

I have both emotional and cognitive empathy even if I don't always demonstrate it directly on forums but it doesn't mean I deserve to be branded as lacking empathy by users, as I feel it's just pointing fingers and name-calling. Even users I don't get on that well with here, I still wouldn't yell at them that they lack empathy, because in reality they probably have loads of empathy in general but just happen to disagree on my views or not understand what I'm feeling.
But I also know that it isn't always about me. You don't have to understand everybody in the world to be an empathetic person.

I can be rather blunt.

That's why I prefer text chatting. It gives me the possibility to think about what the other person is saying, and try to respond appropriately.
And even then, I can still offend people.

Recently, one of my best friends got really upset with me when I, innocently, commented on something she said. She was talking about sending her kids to camp, and I said some summer camps really aren't what's expected and was about to talk about my own experience. She got furious and started aggressively asking me (almost shouting) if I thought she hadn't vetted the place.

That was a surprising one... I felt hurt. What's the point of having a conversation if you can't share your thoughts and experiences?

I apologised and didn't say anything about the subject anymore.

 

[jsilver256]

I have both emotional and cognitive empathy even if I don't always demonstrate it directly on forums but it doesn't mean I deserve to be branded as lacking empathy by users, as I feel it's just pointing fingers and name-calling.

Just send them my way if they want to know what it's like to chat with someone who actually lacks empathy.

 

[Outdated]

Recently, one of my best friends got really upset with me when I.....

My mistakes are usually on the comical side and it's not easy for them to get upset with me when everyone else is laughing. A boss was complaining one day that his wife wanted to get a nose job. I couldn't understand it either, she was a very attractive woman but he said she was paranoid about people looking at her nose all the time. The words sort of jump out before I can stop them.

"If she's that worried about people looking at her face she could always try wearing shorter skirts."

I didn't know she'd walked into the room behind me, she thought it was funny but the boss didn't know what sort of face he should be pulling.