On the subject of accuracy vs politeness

[Jonn]

Ah! But can you have 'truth' without 'proof'?

Yes you can.
I am one of those silly ppl who believe in "Absolute Truths".

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still make a sound?"
Ummmm....

 

[Jonn]

Maybe that was the real lesson?
"Think as I tell you, don't think for yourself!"

That behaviour is quite common these days, unfortunately.
Uni students learn very quickly that it is better to agree with the lecturer than not, if they want to get good grades.

Back in my day, "Integrity" was worth something.

 

[Jonn]

A kid I knew wanted to be a horse

They are called "Furries", and it is a "thing" these days.

What does it mean if a person is furry?


Furries are people who identify with animals who have human characteristics, like cartoon characters. Over the past several decades, they've formed a growing and inclusive community that offers acceptance, friendship, and the opportunity to express oneself.10 Jan 2024

Welcome to the new (furry) world order.

 

[Jonn]

I wanted to be an Indian - Native American - and live in a teepee in the woods. My mother broke my heart when I was about 10 years old when she told me I could not be an Indian when I grew up because I wasn't born an Indian. Very unfair.

Old-world thinking.
These days you are allowed to identify with different groups.
See my "Furries" post.

 

[Jonn]

Somewhere I read that autistic people can't feel compassion either. But I think that's false.
I think it depends of the circumstances.

In my case, and probably for most on the spectrum

Spoiler

excluding Misty.

, I have "Cognitive Empathy" which is learned through experience.

Cognitive empathy involves knowing how other people think and feel, while emotional empathy involves feeling another person's emotions.

https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-and-emotional-empathy-4582389
I am not assuming you don't know this, btw.
I am simply being thorough.

 

[jsilver256]

In my case, and probably for most on the spectrum

Spoiler

excluding Misty.

, I have "Cognitive Empathy" which is learned through experience.


https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-and-emotional-empathy-4582389
I am not assuming you don't know this, btw.
I am simply being thorough.

Yeah. I was shocked to find out that empathy was an emotion. It's purely intellectual for me.

I think I do have a below average amount of empathy, even cognitively, though. So does my ASD son. A lot of what bothers others, doesn't seem to bother us.

 

[Cryptid]

I have served on committees where politeness was in order, and where my direct and fact-based reports made others on the committees uncomfortable (they told me so).

But when I switched to a kinder, gentler manner, no one took my cautions and warnings seriously (they told me so) until it was too late.

(“Why didn’t you warn us?” / “I did! It was right there in the report!”)

I no longer volunteer for committe service.

 

[Neia]

In my case, and probably for most on the spectrum

Spoiler

excluding Misty.

, I have "Cognitive Empathy" which is learned through experience.


https://www.verywellmind.com/cognitive-and-emotional-empathy-4582389
I am not assuming you don't know this, btw.
I am simply being thorough.

I can "feel" what others feel if I personally have gone through a similar situation or event.

Otherwise, I realise the person is upset and I should have compassion towards them, I even have learnt to say the right things to comfort them. But if I had to be honest, I don't think I'd care much if I didn't know I should.

That did upset me a lot for a long time. That sense of detachment.
But learning that I'm not just "being mean" helps.

I do care for them though. For my friends and family. But it's like JSilver said, if I'm not currently talking with them, I won't miss them.

 

[Boogs]

Yes you can.
I am one of those silly ppl who believe in "Absolute Truths".

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still make a sound?"
Ummmm....

That's one I could never get my head around. Everything in my universe is composed of black boxes, and until I've found out how they work, sliced them open and pulled the guts out, tracked back to the fundamental evidence and chain of logic that leads from that to reveal their workings, I can't process stuff much at all.
Interestingly, when I was a few years old, my parents couldn't get me to read all the Janet and John (and similar rubbish) books, but the moment they got me a junior science book, they couldn't stop we constantly whining for more of the same.

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it still make a sound?"

For me, if I'm there to hear it, that just modifies it (observer and observed), but doesn't ever negate it.
The universe was never put there for us, we are of it instead, emerged of it's physical processes.
Maybe we are the tree that falls in the forest? And if so, who listens out for us? (rhetorical q.)

 

[Boogs]

Uni students learn very quickly that it is better to agree with the lecturer than not, if they want to get good grades.

I worked in a uni back in the 80's, chem dept. of one of the big London red-bricks.
There was a saying that went round (quietly) about some of the lecturers and professors:
"Quench my thirst and get a first"
Not a nice thing, but horribly common when humans have power over others and little oversight.

 

[Jonn]

I think I do have a below average amount of empathy, even cognitively, though. So does my ASD son. A lot of what bothers others, doesn't seem to bother us.

I like your straightforward honesty without all the diplomatic tap-dancing.

 

[Jonn]

That did upset me a lot for a long time. That sense of detachment.
But learning that I'm not just "being mean" helps.

I have come across a number of people on the spectrum say they wonder if they are psychopaths because they don't have inherent empathy.
(I used to too.)
I point out to them that if they have a conscience, they need not worry.

 

[Boogs]

I like your straightforward honesty without all the diplomatic tap-dancing.

I'd love to say I've worked hard at developing that attitude, it would be nice to stoke the ego and all that, but truth be told it's just how my mind works and always has. I grew up (like many here I'm sure) learning to distrust figures of authority more and more, as what they'd say never matched up to my examination of the the facts and the logic (whether I was right or wrong, it's all I really had to work with).

But I do upset some people with that style of cold examination, and more lately, I care less and less, because much of what they say upsets me! So it seems only fair?
(besides, I'm clueless at behaving any other way! )

 

[Boogs]

I have come across a number of people on the spectrum say they wonder if they are psychopaths because that don't have inherent empathy.
(I used to too.)
I point out to them that if they have a conscience, they need not worry.

I have plenty of empathy (too much sometimes), but I can only imagine what I would feel in someone else's unhappy position, and feel for them in that way, but rarely if ever understand how they feel!
But more than that, I just hate to hurt or break things needlessly. Even insects don't deserve to be crushed simply because I don't like the idea of them crawling on me (etc).

 

[Jonn]

But more than that, I just hate to hurt or break things needlessly. Even insects don't deserve to be crushed simply because I don't like the idea of them crawling on me (etc).

I literally try and save ants that have crawled into the house.
I pick up worms on the driveway after a storm and relocate them so they don't die.
I think I could do with less empathy.

 

[Boogs]

I think I could do with less empathy.

Well it's funny what you said about psychopathy, I have often wondered what I could have done with my life if I hadn't had this crippling inhibition about hurting things, especially other people.

The idea of being able to do anything without concern for others must be an amazingly freeing experience, but in the end, all it seems it would have been good for is to gain what the NT's call success! Or what I rephrase as suck-cess! (as in to suck up a cess pool! ).
Hardly my life's ambition when I wouldn't even take a better paid job if it meant having to wear a suit (never mind having to commute in London!).

I pick up worms on the driveway after a storm and relocate them so they don't die.

One day, when I too have a driveway of my own ...

The Worst Thing In The World
Going out in the backyard at night, and feeling the crunch of a snail beneath my shoe! Makes me feel physically sick and disgusted with myself!

 

[Jonn]

Well it's funny what you said about psychopathy, I have often wondered what I could have done with my life if I hadn't had this crippling inhibition about hurting things, especially other people.

I had wished at one time that I was a psychopath.
Having an overbearing conscience is an overwhelming burden.

 

[Boogs]

I had wished at one time that I was a psychopath.
Having an overbearing conscience is an overwhelming burden.

It is a very limiting factor, and the source of much guilt for me...
"Did I just upset someone for no reason?"
"Was I rude just then, should I have just stayed quiet?"
ad nauseum!

I think (though maybe that's just self appeasement) I grew up hating the hurtful things said to me by those close, and determined not to do that (in my own consistently fallible way in which I usually end up upsetting others! ).

 

[Boogs]

I am one of those silly ppl who believe in "Absolute Truths".

On a side track slightly, while I'm solidly stuck in empirical process internally, I also have some time for the limited philosophical thoughts I'm able to appreciate. For instance I was very taken by some of Krishnamurti's offerings about knowledge and learning, and how the more you know, the less you are aware of things. That accumulation of knowledge and understanding, also filters many things out of our perceptions.

His collaborations with Bohm on the fundamental similarities between quantum mechanics and some Eastern philosophies, such as the principal of observer and observed and the unbreakable linkage between them. The idea you can only see what you look for. I never really liked Schrödinger's version with the cat though, he was trying to explain unstable atoms emitting radiation at 'random' (unpredictable) intervals, but everyone got stuck on a cat being alive or dead at the same time, when the cat was really representing a radiation detector (at a time when the public wouldn't know what that was).

Fascinating stuff and lead to thoughts more extensive in imagination than just those hard evidential links. The idea there's something more than just current ideas of science from an anthropic point of view.
This also relates to the Tree in the woods trope, which coincides with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle but from a Zen perspective (I believe) - the tree is neither up nor down until it's observed (heard) but instead holds both positions simultaneously.

Most philosophers I find really hard to read and understand (likewise a lot of classic literature), though a few I've come across have been really spot on. I came across Kant's essay on enlightenment and that was so clear to read and made so much sense, it was more like a manual than a philosophical treatise to me.

But surely the best ever take on philosophy has to be Monty Python's "Bruce's Song"?
'Rene Descartes was a drunken fart, "I drink therefore I am!"'

 

[Neia]

Truth is truth whether our opinion agrees with it or not.
A fact is a fact, no matter if we witness it or not.
Nothing can't change that.