"Original Sin"....Just Another term for our animal nature?

[Au Naturel]

Just thought I would share a different take on this being from a Buddhist background.

In Buddhism, there is no concept of original sin. Instead, actions are either considered skillful (bringing contentment) or unskillful (bringing stress), and we have both tendencies in our nature.

The "evil" we experience in this world instead is actually caused by the three poisons: hatred, greed, and ignorance. While we are inclined to hatred, greed, and ignorance, we also have the opposite inclinations in us. We are capable of great, unselfish love and kindness.

Original sin doesn't make sense to me. If an omnipotent and omniscient creator exists as is described in the Bible, then only that creator could be ultimately responsible for first creating the concept of sin and then second for allowing humans to be able to fall victim to it. And if the devil created sin, then the devil would have equal creative powers to God.

A quote is attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

And that is why the Epicurean school was reviled by the early Christian church. It was a target of an early disinformation campaign. Stoicism was more respectful of God(s).

Hatred and greed are instinctive. We manufacture explanations as to why we hate or covet a particular thing, but the underlying mechanism is pre-logical. All emotions are prelogical. Ignorance is a product of laziness
(another instinct) and/or lack of access to knowledge.

Satan and God in the Old Testament are more "frienemies" than antagonists. Satan may have been kicked out of heaven but he still had a job to do that was assigned by God. Satan tests and God judges. It isn't until the New Testament that we give Satan the adversarial role.

 

[Crossbreed]

Do you have a reference for this?
It's not in Genesis (according to wikipedia).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 5:12-21&version=NKJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5:19-21&version=NKJV

 

[Hypnalis]

The second one is about sin, but not original sin.

The first talks about "one man", but not which man. Yet it names Adam and Moses.
I can accept that if there is an explicit definition of original sin elsewhere, this would be referring to it. But that only works if there's a first definition.

An interesting aside: If "original sin" is an invention of early Christianity, it reduces the value of much of the "old testament", since it was written during times when there was no "generational debt of sin" weighing down newborns.

I don't remember what I wrote earlier in this thread, but IMO "original sin" is one of the worst aspects of those Christian faiths that believe it.

 

[spacealien]

We are forever flawed and will always suffer the consequences.
Everyone has made what they would consider to be errors and mistakes.
Humility and seeking forgiveness benefits us, our families, our communities and society.

 

[Crossbreed]

Humility and seeking forgiveness benefits us, our families, our communities and society.

And God made that forgiveness available to us...!

https://knowgod.com/en/fourlaws/0
In other languages,...
http://www.4laws.com/laws/languages.html

 

[Au Naturel]

In any world I'm want to live in, a creditor cannot come after the children of the debtor. The most they can ever do is place a claim on the estate. If the estate doesn't cover the debt, the creditors are screwed. The children had no control over their parents' actions. They are innocent of their parent's behavior. And that is why original sin is so pernicious.

To be born with an unpayable debt to an all-powerful creditor over your head and to know your children will also have the same unpayable debt - and so on forever - is slavery

 

[Crossbreed]

To be born with an unpayable debt to an all-powerful creditor over your head and to know your children will also have the same unpayable debt - and so on forever - is slavery

Not if He provides terms for Amnesty...
(Who is to say that the dynamics of the Spiritual realm are the same as those of the natural realm, anyway?)

" 'For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,' says the LORD.​

'For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,​

And My thoughts than your thoughts.' " Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV​

“ 'Come now, and let us reason together,'
Says the Lord,
'Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.' " Isaiah 1:18 NKJV

Jubilee, Michael Card (1989)

 

[Chris12345]

Original sin could possibly relate to what Carl Jung called 'the shadow'. This is the part of the psyche that contains dark and unpleasant elements that we don't want to acknowledge. His idea is that we have to integrate the shadow if we want to achieve 'individuation'. That's a sort of realisation of our own basic nature or Self as individuals.

Of course, it might have nothing to do with that, it's just a thought.

If humans are evil in some way in their basic nature I think that would probably be down to self-interest, or selfishness. The desire to assert yourself, get the best sexual partner, have luxurious and comfortable surroundings and be venerated and treated with deference. That would be my guess anyway, in terms of where evil comes from.

And there would probably be a tendency to suppress that in our consciousness. So we wouldn't realise we were selfish. Maybe that's the origin of the shadow.

I think you see that with a lot of rich and powerful people - they might be doing damaging things to buttress their wealth and power, but they think they're upstanding people and that's what people around them are telling them. Though obviously the shadow is also there in poor and non-powerful people and can manifest in damaging ways there too.

 

[Fino]

An unpayable* debt does sound like madness.

*the debt has been paid on your behalf

 

[Crossbreed]

*the debt has been paid on your behalf

All that is required of us is to acknowledge that payment and surrender to our Rescuer!

Gotta Serve Somebody, Bob Dylan (1979)

 

[Au Naturel]

Not if He provides terms for Amnesty...
(Who is to say that the dynamics of the Spiritual realm are the same as those of the natural realm, anyway?)

" 'For My thoughts are not your thoughts,

Nor are your ways My ways,' says the LORD.​

'For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So are My ways higher than your ways,​

And My thoughts than your thoughts.' " Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV​

“ 'Come now, and let us reason together,'
Says the Lord,
'Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.' " Isaiah 1:18 NKJV

Jubilee, Michael Card (1989)

If you want to assume there is a "spiritual realm" and that the die roll that gave you your faith (instead of one of a thousand others) happened to be the lucky one. Otherwise you have a document written by humans, edited by humans, for the purpose of telling other humans how they have to live.

Even if you believe in God, you still have a document written by humans, edited by humans, for the purpose of telling other humans how they have to live.

And do as I say or go to hell is not amnesty. It is extortion.

 

[Au Naturel]

An unpayable* debt does sound like madness.

*the debt has been paid on your behalf

Then I don't owe anything to anyone. At most a bit of optional gratitude but certainly not obedience.

 

[Fino]

If you want to assume there is a "spiritual realm" and that the die roll that gave you your faith (instead of one of a thousand others) happened to be the lucky one. Otherwise you have a document written by humans, edited by humans, for the purpose of telling other humans how they have to live.

Even if you believe in God, you still have a document written by humans, edited by humans, for the purpose of telling other humans how they have to live.

And do as I say or go to hell is not amnesty. It is extortion.

Did you choose your current beliefs with the roll of a dice?

 

[Au Naturel]

Original sin could possibly relate to what Carl Jung called 'the shadow'. This is the part of the psyche that contains dark and unpleasant elements that we don't want to acknowledge. His idea is that we have to integrate the shadow if we want to achieve 'individuation'. That's a sort of realisation of our own basic nature or Self as individuals.

Of course, it might have nothing to do with that, it's just a thought.

If humans are evil in some way in their basic nature I think that would probably be down to self-interest, or selfishness. The desire to assert yourself, get the best sexual partner, have luxurious and comfortable surroundings and be venerated and treated with deference. That would be my guess anyway, in terms of where evil comes from.

And there would probably be a tendency to suppress that in our consciousness. So we wouldn't realise we were selfish. Maybe that's the origin of the shadow.

I think you see that with a lot of rich and powerful people - they might be doing damaging things to buttress their wealth and power, but they think they're upstanding people and that's what people around them are telling them. Though obviously the shadow is also there in poor and non-powerful people and can manifest in damaging ways there too.

There is an argument to be had that humans are fundamentally evil. I disagree with it. I think humans are just humans and no more inherently evil than chimps or lions or goldfish. Paleolithic minds with nuclear bombs. Trying to handle the problems of the world with a brain evolved to pick nuts and berries and hunt wildebeest.

But then there's always people like Pete Singer. He has a pretty demanding requirement for not being evil.

 

[Au Naturel]

Did you choose your current beliefs with the roll of a dice?

Everyone does to some extent.

There's zero chance I could have been Muslim, or Hindu or Jewish. Not available as a kid. If I had faith as a part of my programming I'd have been Christian, probably fundamentalist Protestant. Since faith is not a natural part of my makeup, I couldn't have been a believer. So I existed as a cultural Christian until I could get away and live the secular life I was naturally better adapted to.

I think many Americans are cultural Christians. They do not take the Bible literally but they absorbed many of the high points. They do not take the dogma seriously but have a vague feeling something is out there that is greater than they and can probably name several of the Ten Commandments. In a religious environment they can "pass."

For whatever reason, some people are better at having faith than others. Some need it, some have no use for it and this is heavily influenced by biochemistry and by environment. All seems pretty random to me.

We love to take credit for making decisions that were actually inevitable, considering all the forces acting on us. Given my life's influences I could not have become anything other than a completely secular person - an agnostic. That doesn't make the logic behind it invalid, however. To me it is unavoidable.

As science is better able to explain and predict the universe, there is less need for religion. As faith becomes less convenient to our ends, there is less faith. In a modern western culture, there's less overt demand for religious adherence and those people who don't feel that need are free to dispense with it.

 

[Crossbreed]

And do as I say or go to hell is not amnesty. It is extortion.

That is spin.

Amnesty is
Before you can get into Heaven, you must have your sins washed away (and re-washed, as necessary).
I am willing to Wash them, at your request.

 

[Chris12345]

There is an argument to be had that humans are fundamentally evil. I disagree with it. I think humans are just humans and no more inherently evil than chimps or lions or goldfish. Paleolithic minds with nuclear bombs. Trying to handle the problems of the world with a brain evolved to pick nuts and berries and hunt wildebeest.

But then there's always people like Pete Singer. He has a pretty demanding requirement for not being evil.

I don't think humans are fundamentally evil. That's not my experience. We're social creatures so we need to cooperate to survive and prosper. To facilitate that cooperation you have morality. But there's also competition. So there's a tension between competition and cooperation.

There's a mixture in human nature of good and evil I would say. The evil comes through too much self-assertion (leaving aside pathological cases). The good comes through emphasising cooperation and inclusion. Obviously a certain amount of self-assertion is good, but it's when it tips over into extreme greed or extreme desire for control and domination that it becomes evil.

You use the right word regarding Peter Singer - he's too demanding. Utilitarianism is too demanding generally.

 

[The Pandector]

People have a hard time grasping the fundamental mechanics of original sin because it’s foreign to our thinking.

When our progenitors sinned, they altered the fundamental nature of mankind and therefore their relationship with God. That nature has remained corrupt since that time. God provided a fix for that situation; as through one man the nature of our race was corrupted, through one man our relationship with God is restored.

We’re all amazingly good at telling the cosmos what is fair and what isn’t, especially for a race as manifestly immoral and unfair as we are. Being born into a cursed race is simply unfair and we’re not going to tolerate these shenanigans. Problem with that is that the guy who invented and sustains the universe… says we are born into a cursed race. That pretty much makes it a fact. Now, we can either respond to those facts in a reasonable fashion, or like your neighbor’s pubescent daughter we can storm around about how unfair life is. Probably most of us can imagine the response of adults who hear a teen complaining about how unfair life is. Yet, we mount the same pathetic defense when confronted with our responsibility to God.

Humanity is a fallen race, but God has provided a solution. Unfortunately, his solution looks nothing like the one favored by your neighbor’s pubescent daughter. And so begins another round of bewailing the unfairness of the universe.

If you can evaluate the behavior of the brat next door and see a lack of determination to deal with reality, then I can see the same reaction in all the unsaved adults who deny the problem and reject the solution.

People holler for the right to decide for themselves, and God has provided each person the right to do so. Choose wisely, because that’s what God decided is fair.

 

[The Pandector]

I don't remember what I wrote earlier in this thread, but IMO "original sin" is one of the worst aspects of those Christian faiths that believe it.

Not sure if there is a ‘Christian’ faith that doesn’t believe in original sin. Christianity is all about Christ, and Christ is all about dealing with original sin. IOW, to remove the concept of original sin from Christian doctrine is to render what is left pointless. But of course, I respect your right to formulate and render your opinion.

 

[Cryptid]

According to the Bible, "animal nature" is a euphemism for Original Sin (even if we have a primate body plan).

Please cite the specific book, chapter, and verse that supports your claim.

From the Christianity.com Editorial Staff:

Original Sin, also described as Ancestral Sin, is a Christian view of the nature of sin in which humanity has existed since the fall of man. Original Sin arose from Adam and Eve's transgression in Eden, the sin of disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thus, it seems that "Original Sin" is rebellion against G^D and His precepts. It is part of human nature.