Romance, Relationships and Autism - A Speculation

[Judge]

What if one neurologically cannot socially or romantically process what they observe? That for some, observing social/romantic protocols can not only be confusing, but that for whatever neurological issue that they can't even see- or imagine them. Even if in their minds, they try.

I'm suddenly reminded of things like how I cannot socially process sarcasm when aimed directly at me. Yet I can process it to some extent when viewed in a third-person context. Equally I have the same issues with envy and jealousy. I simply do not experience them personally, for better and worse. However I can still witness them in other persons. I can't explain such deficits, yet I can vouch for their existence.

Is it possible for an autistic man or woman to have what amounts to as a "void" in understanding specific social protocols and not necessarily others? What gives us the expectation that such a person's issues can be overcome only through technique, attitude, or a thorough understanding of social protocols pertaining to romance?

We've spent so much time on relaying our own experiences whether positive or negative towards others' concerns. However what if their reality really is that they have no chance at romance? All because of how they are individually and neurologically "wired".

Is this possible, and have we overlooked the possibility?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

What if one neurologically cannot socially or romantically process what they observe? That for some, observing social/romantic protocols can not only be confusing, but that for whatever neurological issue that they can't even see- or imagine them. Even if in their minds, they try.

I'm suddenly reminded of things like how I cannot socially process sarcasm when aimed directly at me. Yet I can process it to some extent when viewed in a third-person context. Equally I have the same issues with envy and jealousy. I simply do not experience them personally, for better and worse. However I can still witness them in other persons. I can't explain such deficits, yet I can vouch for their existence.

Is it possible for an autistic man or woman to have what amounts to as a "void" in understanding specific social protocols and not necessarily others? What gives us the expectation that such a person's issues can be overcome only through technique, attitude, or a thorough understanding of social protocols pertaining to romance?

We've spent so much time on relaying our own experiences whether positive or negative towards others' concerns. However what if their reality really is that they have no chance at romance? All because of how they are individually and neurologically "wired".

Is this possible, and have we overlooked the possibility?

Good topic.

Just some thoughts.
(1) Reciprocity. One of the hallmarks of autistic communication is general lack of reciprocity, whether it be giving and receiving complements or initiating and maintaining conversation, the general "back and forth" that occurs between two or more people. I am severely impaired with this.
(2) The lack of eye contact. Again, if we are not focusing upon the subtle nuances of facial micro expressions because we are looking around the face and not into the eyes, we miss a lot of non-verbal communication. Guilty.
(3) General eye aversion. If we are speaking to someone and our eyes drift off to some point on the wall or out into space, we aren't engaged with the other person. We are speaking in their general direction, but we aren't speaking to them, per se. Guilty.
(4) Emotional disregulation. If our tone of voice is off, perhaps more monotone, less emotional inflection, or sometimes too much emotional inflection, there can be some confusion and misinterpretation of the message. In many languages, it's not what you say, but rather how you say it that conveys meaning. Guilty.
(5) Processing delays in interpreting communication and emotional content. Difficulties with understanding intent. Guilty.

Understanding social protocols within the context of autism usually comes in the form of (1) observe and mimic, (2) educating oneself on the topic, and (3) using mental "scripts",..."this is what I should say or do in this situation". We generally don't have this "hardwired" into us, but rather it comes with life experience, paying attention, and learning how to behave. I'm still learning.

Romance. Well, that seriously takes some mental energy. An autistic individual can certainly be "romantic" but it falls under the topic of "understanding social protocols" as described above. I can act it out for my wife and my wife is appreciative, but being on the receiving end of it, I don't process it for reasons 1-5 above. I have to do my best to give, even if I don't fully understand it, and knowing I may not process it when received.

 

[Judge]

Romance. Well, that seriously takes some mental energy.

For many of us, absolutely. However....

What if it's possible that for some of us, there's simply nothing for them to begin with in the first place?

I mean quite literally a "neurological void". Nada. Nichts. Insufficient data or a pathological inability for a mind to process something in a very specific context.

Where they are fundamentally unable to harness whatever "energy" they would apply in a neurological sense? When attitude nor will is enough to overcome such a consideration.

I just don't recall anyone actually discussing this issue in this context before. The possibility that an autistic person may profoundly not possess the neurological ability to make such a social connection with a person in a specific context like romance. Not a matter of asexuality....just a profound inability to make it work.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

What if it's possible that for some of us, there's simply nothing for them to begin with in the first place?

I mean quite literally a "neurological void". Nada. Nichts. Insufficient data or a pathological inability for a mind to process something in a very specific context.

Where they are fundamentally unable to harness whatever "energy" they would apply in a neurological sense? When attitude nor will is enough to overcome such a consideration.

I agree. I don't "feel" romantic. I have a woman that I am committed to and as her husband I know she deserves some degree of love, affection, and romance. Whether I feel it on my end is irrelevant. This is the autistic experience. Sometimes you have to do things because they should be done, with no concern for yourself.

I know the physiology of this, it's well-documented in the literature. An altered signaling from the hypothalamus to the posterior pituitary leading to a lack of oxytocin and vasopressin, the "love" or "social bonding" hormones that would give someone that wanting to initiate and maintain a relationship, that euphoric feeling of friendship and love, that feeling that makes you "addicted" to the other person, that you can't wait to see them again. If you don't have that, or if it is significantly lower than the other person, well, if you want the relationship to last, you are driven by something else, commitment, responsibility, accountability, duty,...whatever,...you give of yourself. Life is not fair, you may not to "feel" the love even when it is given, but take it anyways, and be thankful.

I know I love my wife, but having said that, if we were to have blood drawn and measure circulating levels of these hormones, I know darn well mine would be lower. That doesn't mean I don't love her less. It just means I don't have any sense of euphoria around her, and that's on me, that's my brain, but not a reflection of our relationship, per se. I get my dopamine hits from physical contact, whether it be hugs, kisses, holding hands, cuddling up to her, and so on. Having said that, I know she probably gets a higher dopamine hit than I do. I can't dwell on that.

It doesn't matter to me. I just like having her around. I like having a partner in life. But for me to get all disappointed, envious, jealous, and feel like crap because she is having an experience that I cannot relate to, that is wasted mental energy and only serves to create unneeded mental distress.

 

[Crossbreed]

I don't know if I am missing some greater point in the OP, but the issues described seem to only be a problem in an NT-centric context.

I have poor eye contact with some people and great eye contact with others, including my wife and my my mother.

My mother is likely ADHD or ASD1. She and her side of the family was very physically affectionate and created an appetite in me for the same.

My wife is ADHD. Our courtship was pretty unconventional (by NT standards), but it worked. She, too, was very affectionate until her later-onset depression.

If somebody is asexual, they do not need to pursue such a relationship, but if that appetite has been cultivated, it will likely be met in another "odd duck" (or an accommodating NT).

 

[Aspychata]

Oops, guilty as charged. Like l may not understand how l behave in a romantic context in relation to a ND or NT relationship. So mirroring is a useful thing, and helps me understand how to demonstrate that someone is important to me. But l do struggle with this. I am very biased, l do prefer ND over NT. Because sometimes NT can just irritate me, and l loose interest quickly. In absence of understanding social romantic protocols, this where communication between two individuals better be happening to facilitate anything even remotely close. Good post, a complex question articulated succinctly for the forum members.

 

[Judge]

A number of us seem to have the capability to getting to "first, second or third base". However some us don't seem to have the capability of even getting to the dugout. I never made a "home run" in terms of marriage or a blissful long-term relationship. (Sorry for some crass metaphors.)

Those of us who have done so can all elaborate on our own perspective on such things. But what happens to those who have no such perspectives based on a profound inability to process more sophisticated forms of socialization like romance and courtship? Or even personal chemistry as for that matter. -Even when they try.

I'm not addressing "us", but rather "them". Or at least the possibility that they do pathologically exist. Those who are not having difficulty in navigating the NT world, but rather those who cannot navigate it at all in certain contexts. Which doesn't sound so far-fetched to me, given so many individual traits and behaviors in which we deem to be "hard-wired". Which cannot be solved or circumvented in some way.

 

[Misery]

I'm curious, is this in any way similar to the idea of someone being aromantic? Something like that?

When I hear the concept of that sort of... mental void, that's what I think of. Like, for me, I dont experience romantic desires/feelings. At all. Nor can I comprehend the concept (and frankly, I usually find it repulsive, since a lot of physical contact is often involved with it). I can understand that OTHERS want it, but I understand this in the way that I know that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen; it's a mostly useless fact that I happen to have memorized but have zero emotional connection to. I can at least also grasp the fact that it is IMPORTANT to others, so if someone near me is struggling with it or something (as in, if they're depressed and whatnot), I'll try to at least boost their mood or something, but trying to figure out the "why" of it makes me feel, like... "glitchy", if that makes sense.

...Or is that not even close to what you're getting at here?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

A number of us seem to have the capability to getting to "first, second or third base". However some us don't seem to have the capability of even getting to the dugout. I never made a "home run" in terms of marriage or a blissful long-term relationship. (Sorry for some crass metaphors.)

Those of us who have done so can all elaborate on our own perspective on such things. But what happens to those who have no such perspectives based on a profound inability to process more sophisticated forms of socialization like romance and courtship?

I'm not addressing "us", but rather "them". Or at least the possibility that they do pathologically exist.

To be honest here, I think it was dumb luck that I was found by someone who was willing to take the lead in the relationship. You are absolutely correct that if you don't have any sense of reference, you don't feel the things the other person does, you don't understand intent or social protocols, you need someone to take you by the hand and walk you along the path. I've had nearly 40 years to sort out a lot of this. I know what is expected of me as a partner. I know that there is a lot of giving, even though I might not know how to receive.

I am thinking that what many autistics are really looking for in a partner is someone who is (1) neurotypical, (2) caring and understanding, and (3) respects and can appreciate a different way of thinking. We sort of need someone who can teach us what love is. We can follow directions, just show us what to do. If we can find a person with the patience for that, this is a good start.

 

[Judge]

I'm curious, is this in any way similar to the idea of someone being aromantic? Something like that?

That's a very good question. In my own case I've always defaulted to the notion that I simply flunk romance rather than consider myself aromantic. I even have a terrible time at choosing gifts for people at Christmas.
I'll have to give that one more thought in my own case. Maybe I am as well.

When I hear the concept of that sort of... mental void, that's what I think of. Like, for me, I dont experience romantic desires/feelings. At all.

That's much closer to what I'm getting at. That strange "void"....where there's nothing there and literally nothing to even think about - "at all" as you put it.

I can at least also grasp the fact that it is IMPORTANT to others, so if someone near me is struggling with it or something (as in, if they're depressed and whatnot), I'll try to at least boost their mood or something, but trying to figure out the "why" of it makes me feel, like... "glitchy", if that makes sense.

...Or is that not even close to what you're getting at here?

Now that's a bit further away. Where you are consciously aware of it, even though you don't experience it. Yet try to imagine some who may not even be able to conceptualize either in their own heart and mind.

 

[Crossbreed]

Those who are not having difficulty in navigating the NT world, but rather those who cannot navigate it at all in certain contexts. Which doesn't sound so far-fetched to me, given so many individual traits and behaviors in which we deem to be "hard-wired". Which cannot be solved or circumvented in some way.

I was not romantically adept, nor would I be now if I found myself "on the market" again.

Just like the first woman in my life [my mom], my wife had to initiate an intimate relationship with me.* Once she did, all ambiguity was gone and I could freely reciprocate. That dynamic seems to be the same for less intense social interactions. I do not often start threads/conversations, but I very often add to existing ones.

*That is unconventional, by NT standards.

 

[Judge]

To be honest here, I think it was dumb luck that I was found by someone who was willing to take the lead in the relationship.

Looking back at some, but not all my relationships with NT women I kind of ponder the same thing.
- "Dumb Luck". When at best I can only speculate as to what truly attracted them to me in the first place.

 

[Judge]

I was not romantically adept, nor would I be now if I found myself "on the market" again.

Just like the first woman in my life, my wife had to initiate an intimate relationship with me.* Once she did, all ambiguity was gone and I could freely reciprocate. That dynamic seems to be the same for less intense social interactions. I do not often start threads/conversations, but I very often add to existing ones.

*That is unconventional, by NT standards.

I had such a relationship for a little over three years with a neurotypical woman who initially approached me first as well. However in time the thrill of it was mitigated by a huge consideration. She was a "functional alcoholic". Leaving me to ponder whether I was just her babysitter with fringe benefits or something else. The one relationship I was eventually compelled to terminate.

As far as romance went, I always tried to make up for this through sex and physical affection. Which in time seemed to reflect a failed strategy with my own shortcomings. Worse when I eventually discovered the woman I loved (a different one) was hypersexual. That what sex meant to her was not the same as it meant to me. (Love and sex being the same thing.) And that romance meant a great deal to her.

Issues that pretty much spelled doom for the other relationships I had with NT women. But again, at least I got that far, which is far beyond that of those I spoke of earlier.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

hat's much closer to what I'm getting at. That strange "void"....where there's nothing there and literally nothing to even think about - "at all" as you put it.

Now that's a bit further away. Where you are consciously aware of it, even though you don't experience it. Yet try to imagine some who may not even be able to conceptualize either in their own heart and mind.

I am thinking the difference here between you, @Misery, and myself may fall under the umbrella of what I suggested before in an earlier post. Understanding social protocols within the context of autism usually comes in the form of (1) observe and mimic, (2) educating oneself on the topic, and (3) using mental "scripts",..."this is what I should say or do in this situation". We generally don't have this "hardwired" into us, but rather it comes with life experience, paying attention, and learning how to behave.

Like you, I get the sense that you and I go about our daily lives without "thinking about people", like at all. This is my experience. So, when I said that romance takes some mental energy, it does. I just know what is expected of me, and that alone, forces me to think of the other person. Many times on here, I have hit home this idea of duty, honor, responsibility, accountability, self-discipline, etc. primarily because it's the level I function upon when there is a lack of emotions and feeling. I don't think about people unless something is expected of me from them. I wake up with a purpose. Without those prime directives, I would be wandering through life aimlessly with zero regard for anyone around me. I know, it sucks to think about myself as some sort of robot with a computer brain and software code, but I have to function somehow, and despite this deficit, I think I am doing pretty well so far. I don't have much to complain about.

 

[Aspychata]

Definitely not looking for NT to show me anything. Two ND can find and set their own standards for establishing a important social construct on their terms and live pretty happily. I don't need to adopt NT standards of romance and love, and intimacy. I can simply devise my own schematic. Why should two ND people mask NT standards? Why bother? I think it gets down to each caring about the other, and figuring out where to go from there to show commitment and longevity in a relationship. For example if my ND partner isn't always open to touch or even kissing, then let's discuss this, put me on the same page. It won't upset me because l am ND and more accepting than a NT SO. So l wouldn't nag, but my tradeoff, l love to hold hands sporadically, and that means a lot to me.

 

[Crossbreed]

I had such a relationship for a little over three years with a neurotypical woman who initially approached me first as well. However in time the thrill of it was mitigated by a huge consideration. She was an alcoholic. Leaving me to ponder whether I was just her babysitter with fringe benefits or something else. The one relationship I was eventually compelled to terminate.

I "kicked the tires" before I committed (as I always did).

 

[Judge]

I "kicked the tires" before I committed (as I always did).

I never owned a car that attempted to hide its shortcomings.

Perhaps the difference between a falling-down-drunk and a functional alcoholic. Plus her problem became more acute as time went on, over an issue non-related to the relationship. Trying to make a business work with no business experience at all. When I spent more time taking car of her daughter as her mother morphed into an "absentee parent".

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Definitely not looking for NT to show me anything. Two ND can find and set their own standards for establishing a important social construct on their terms and live pretty happily. I don't need to adopt NT standards of romance and love, and intimacy. I can simply devise my own schematic. Why should two ND people mask NT standards? Why bother? I think it gets down to each caring about the other, and figuring out where to go from there to show commitment and longevity in a relationship. For example if my ND partner isn't always open to touch or even kissing, then let's discuss this, put me on the same page. It won't upset me because l am ND and more accepting than a NT SO. So l wouldn't nag, but my tradeoff, l love to hold hands sporadically, and that means a lot to me.

You make a good point here. So @Judge was concerned about these social constructs and how does one be romantic if you don't have any sense or point of reference as to what that actually is. Now, obviously, my wife is neurotypical, more traditional values, and in her mind, she expects, amongst many other things, to receive affection, attention, and romance. Within this context, I had to learn from her, because, as an autistic male, I, like @Judge, didn't fully understand what that was in practice, what my role was, what I would receive in turn. What I suggested here is that IF you had a mind towards understanding what that experience is, a neurotypical partner, might be able to teach you, as opposed to another autistic that may not understand it either.

This is not to say that ND-ND relationships do not work. Clearly, if I met a woman who had a similar mentality as myself, IF the relationship were to work, it would operate on an entirely different set of rules than my current relationship. Certainly, you've pointed this out, but my focus primarily was within the context of processing things like romance and the social experience of initiating and maintaining a long-term loving partnership.

 

[Judge]

So l wouldn't nag, but my tradeoff, l love to hold hands sporadically, and that means a lot to me.

Oddly enough, that was something I understood very well about one of my NT girlfriends. We'd walk down Montgomery Street in the City to work, hand-in-hand, and I could always feel her thumb rubbing my hand back back and forth. A gesture I actually got- and appreciated. Too bad I couldn't understand so many others.

 

[Judge]

Now, obviously, my wife is neurotypical, more traditional values, and in her mind, she expects, amongst many other things, to receive affection, attention, and romance. Within this context, I had to learn from her, because, as an autistic male

That's where I like to emphasize the importance of a "wingman". Who else better can help an autistic man guide them through the NT world than an NT wife? A critical asset if you can make it all work.

Sadly in my own case neither myself or any of my girlfriends ever contemplated that I might be autistic at the time.