Romance, Relationships and Autism - A Speculation

[Judge]

@Judge

But ... can there be something for which are words in the common language that cannot be appreciated as abstract concepts?

There's no question that there are things that one person can conceptualize and another can't (like the principles of quantum physics). But IMO the closer you get to human interactions and interpersonal communication using the same spoken language, the smaller the likelihood of a true void.

To relate to your first example: you can learn to deal with sarcasm in your native language, but I imagine it would be a lot of work. It's weird but there's a protocol. (it's an issue for me in my local language though).

OTOH I don't think you can learn to feel a "new" emotion, but I think you can position it relative to other conceptual knowledge.

I'm not interested in semantics arguments.

I'm simply trying to convey that some traits and behaviors may be so massive in amplitude that they may create a complete "void" in understanding aspects of interpersonal relations. Regardless of what those traits (or deficits) may be. With a dichotomy reflecting that those particular traits may not interfere in other thought processes in whole or in part.

Take it or leave it. It's just speculation on my part, as the thread title indicates.

 

[Aspychata]

I get what you are saying. Someone did mentioned to me that they don't feel love. So l guess l would ask @Judge , do your relationships feel one sided? Because you don't know what is expected? Do you feel in the hopes to get an answer, maybe you over compensated? In past relationships? I run the path of how my mom treated my step-father. I notice my daughter is following my footsteps. So my notion of romance is a 1950's mentality. Like totally unrealistic. So which is worse, having a void, or a totally unrealistic reality? My reality works if someone also has the same reality. I actually have someone who is like that in my life.

 

[Judge]

I get what you are saying. Someone did mentioned to me that they don't feel love.

Indeed, a profound example of a "void" that would cover a lot of ground, as opposed to a mere trait or behavior. However that's a trait I don't believe I have. Even though I may have issues with verbally expressing love in a way meaningful to NTs. Much like empathy. That while we may have it, we can't seem to project in a way that's meaningful in the NT world. Which can leave some of us looking like a "cold fish" at times.

So l guess l would ask @Judge , do your relationships feel one sided? Because you don't know what is expected?

That's a very interesting question.

In the university I was taught, "Everything Is Political". Given that as humans, our interactions with others are first and foremost transactional in nature.

That one party wants something of another. And whether the other party may or may not get something in return, but usually expects as such, regardless of whether it is truly equitable. In this context most relationships are presumably two-sided. Unless of course one party is either initially or indefinitely unaware of the ramifications of such a relationship, leaving it presumably a "one-sided" relationship. Or that one party is prepared to totally capitulate to the other out of love or need or some other reason.

Do you feel in the hopes to get an answer, maybe you over compensated? In past relationships?

Another great question. I could spend hours on this one. Maybe even days. Even then I probably couldn't come up with a definite answer of yes or no.

Though the first thing that comes to mind is that in each of my relationships that failed, that I could not see it coming and that my overcompensation may reflect in staying in those relationships longer than I should have. However I'm just speculating again.

With the main consideration IMO being that I had no idea I was autistic, or even could be at the time. So I had no real understanding of what was really behind my traits and behaviors, other to surmise that I am "eccentric". Which certainly was of no help to me in so poorly explaining myself to my then girlfriends. I had no way of realizing- or rationalizing a fundamental need for occasional solitude. A factor that IMO might have mitigated some- but not all of my relationships with NT women.

Though one case involved a "functional alcoholic" which in hindsight was a doomed relationship from the start. And in another relationship I wasn't dealing with an alcoholic, but a hypersexual, with a whole different set of social- and sexual dynamics. In her case she dumped me. I'd be tempted to say I "undercompensated" in her case, not being aware of how critical verbal forms of affection were to her rather than physical ones.

Yet while I was masking my traits and behaviors decades before I really knew why, I really didn't bother with intimate relationships. Which may well have accelerated their demise. All except for my OCD. Something I've always hid and continue to be rather successful at it for some reason. Maybe it's just another case of details that most people don't even notice. Good for me if the case.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Exactly. I fear the miscommunication part should I end up in a relationship.

We are working on that because of my insecurities from past deficits. I now understand that she is more responsive to acts of service, especially in feeling physically safe. Communication is the key in maintaining a good relationship, and that includes love language.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I get what you are saying. Someone did mentioned to me that they don't feel love. So l guess l would ask @Judge , do your relationships feel one sided? Because you don't know what is expected? Do you feel in the hopes to get an answer, maybe you over compensated? In past relationships? I run the path of how my mom treated my step-father. I notice my daughter is following my footsteps. So my notion of romance is a 1950's mentality. Like totally unrealistic. So which is worse, having a void, or a totally unrealistic reality? My reality works if someone also has the same reality. I actually have someone who is like that in my life.

1950s indoctrination in gender roles was horrible for me, as somebody, shy and introverted and who wanted no more judgement in my life. It was a time when guys were expected to approach women and I just could not. If I expressed dismay at my failure I was told that all you have to do is go up and talk to her. I could not even do that and was ashamed of myself and hated my cowardice.

 

[Aspychata]

Let me guess @Judge , you are OCD about hiding your OCD. (wink wink)

 

[Judge]

Let me guess @Judge , you are OCD about hiding your OCD. (wink wink)

Nope. With my OCD it just happens in real time.

Hiding it is a deliberate and sometimes preemptive act done with forethought. My bad!

 

[Steelbookcollector217]

Another reminder how my mindset and perspective on dating and relationships or just flirting or courtship and seduction has changed over the years

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

With the main consideration IMO being that I had no idea I was autistic, or even could be at the time. So I had no real understanding of what was really behind my traits and behaviors, other to surmise that I am "eccentric".

Amen, brother! Diagnosed a decade ago and that made my pain understandable, except that the eccentricity in me was a paralysis to do anything social.

 

[Aspychata]

Can you @Judge imagine how hard it is to convince a completely ND man you love him? When he has zero concept of that? I feel like l am out in the snow, standing on the cellar doors looking in trying to get his attention thru the windows. Oh boy, Mt Fuji looks easier to scale. The struggle is real. And l gave up.

 

[mw2530]

I'm suddenly reminded of things like how I cannot socially process sarcasm when aimed directly at me. Yet I can process it to some extent when viewed in a third-person context.

I sometimes struggle to see sarcasm when it is directed at me and often times take it literally in the moment and respond in a literal fashion. But after being in the midst of the conversation I often recognize the sarcasm that was directed at me and realized it went over my head and I responded inappropriately. Although there are other instances when I do recognize sarcasm directed at me. I do agree that it is easier to recognize sarcasm as a third party observer. I also am a very sarcastic person myself and often direct it at others or in a self depreciating way. So we clearly understand what sarcasm is. It may appear to others that we don't understand sarcasm when it is directed at us at times, but it really is a sensory processing issue. Similar to the idea that we don't have social skills. I don't think that is the case. We just act inappropriately at times because we miss a lot of information within a conversation due to sensory processing issues and auditory processing deficits. As a result, to others it appears that we don't have social skills. At least that is how I see it based on my personal experiences.

 

[Judge]

Can you @Judge imagine how hard it is to convince a completely ND man you love him? When he has zero concept of that?

I'm assuming that your question is rhetorical, given I am the author of this particular thread. Speculating on that very issue. That "zero concept" effectively being one of those "voids" I have mentioned in earlier posts.

Representing a barrier of sorts, where neither can that person in question successfully reach out to others, nor can another person reach out to them as well. And that perhaps in some cases, we compartmentalize our social lives to such an extent that it really does sabotage our ability to love another person. Even if we desperately want to. Though this is on a premise that the void actually exists, as opposed to simply an inability to project love of another in a way that is meaningful to another person. Much like an inability to project empathy for instance. When others may mistake this for an absence of empathy.

And if your instincts were correct in that he truly has zero concept of someone loving him, then you not only made the right decision, but the logical decision in giving up. If such a thing is truly "hard-wired" neurologically speaking on an individual basis, you and anyone else probably never had a chance.

 

[Aspychata]

But l still love him. Nothing can change my love for him. Because it is what it is.

 

[Aspychata]

But yes l gave up because there is someone who truly values me.

 

[Judge]

But l still love him. Nothing can change my love for him. Because it is what it is.

Understandable. I could say something similar, about one who left me more than 35 years ago. But I know they are married to another person and as you say, "It is what it is". Worse still to lament that given her history with men, even had I married her I would likely just be another husband on a list of names. Apart from coming to the conclusion around 18 years ago that I probably wasn't fit to have a relationship with anyone. I seemed to do well as a caregiver, but not as a spouse.

With me it's not pathological, but really just a matter of personal choice.

It's also a bit discouraging to know at least four persons from this community who got married to one another, and yet as of now all four are divorced.

 

[Aspychata]

That's sad @Judge . I truly love my guy. But l understand your stance.

 

[AprilR]

I understand social and romantic protocols but they seem very shallow to me. Like people who flirt with me flirt with someone else a week later.

I see people as very changable and careless in terms of relationships.

 

[Wolfnox]

Can you @Judge imagine how hard it is to convince a completely ND man you love him? When he has zero concept of that? I feel like l am out in the snow, standing on the cellar doors looking in trying to get his attention thru the windows. Oh boy, Mt Fuji looks easier to scale. The struggle is real. And l gave up.

Yeah. I get that.

 

[Judge]

I understand social and romantic protocols but they seem very shallow to me. Like people who flirt with me flirt with someone else a week later.

I see people as very changable and careless in terms of relationships.

"The games people play." <sigh> Another reason why I rejected dating rituals. Establishing an important and intimate relationship with someone should not include any games or deceptions of any kind. Yet it's as if our culture expects this- even encourages this of us.

 

[tazz]

issues with verbally expressing love in a way meaningful to NTs. Much like empathy. That while we may have it, we can't seem to project in a way that's meaningful in the NT world.

I had no idea I was autistic, or even could be at the time. So I had no real understanding of what was really behind my traits and behaviors, other to surmise that I am "eccentric". Which certainly was of no help to me in so poorly explaining myself

Can you @Judge imagine how hard it is to convince a completely ND man you love him? When he has zero concept of that? I feel like l am out in the snow, standing on the cellar doors looking in trying to get his attention thru the windows. Oh boy, Mt Fuji looks easier to scale. The struggle is real. And l gave up.

I am speculating about all this too. What a provocative thread you've started here!

Is the void something that is absolutely empty, or are we really talking about the inability to experience or express love in the same way that the NT world expects? Much the same as empathy is difficult to express.

How hard is it to convince a completely ND man you love him? To me that seems easier than convincing NTs. Just say so. That sounds facetious but it's not meant to be at all. We say we love each other. We start facing up to and sharing life's ups and downs together. What more needs to be done or said. The psychiatrist that assessed me for autism described a "self indexed empathy pathway": I can only understand what others are feeling by thinking about how I felt or would feel in similar situations.

The difficulty for me has always been when the NT partner wants something other than that. Like they start placing some significance on things that I can't really understand are significant.

I kinda want my partner, ND, NT or whatever, to have their own life. I don't want the responsibility of making them happy. Sharing in their happiness (and pain) - yes, fabulous, there's something seriously profound about being the person that someone turns to when they want to say "Did you see what I just achieved, I'm so happy!" or "Today tore me apart". But the idea that my actions can cause that happiness or pain, that freaks me out.