Some autistics just cannot understand some things...

[Jonn]

And it is good when people understand that and reassure them it will be ok
So if you struggle with unknown, why should I feel shame, that is autistic and I have a disability...

I consider autism to be a social disability and also a cognitive one if you have executive dysfunction.

Executive dysfunction and my non-existent <hyperbole> short-term memory have made my life a living hell.
Looking forward to the next life in oblivion/non-existence.
It's GOT to be better than this one.

What is wrong is telling a disabled person to be less disabled

It is ignorant to expect someone to be more than they are.
Fantasyland stuff.
The focus should be becoming the best "you" you are capable of being.
I.E., Becoming self-actualised.

 

[Jonn]

Yes so true I believe it has strengths and never considered it That either
Because when u call it a disability it sounds like you are saying it is negative
But now I am fine to say it because I do think I struggle with some things and whether or not it limits me in big areas remains to be seen. So I will happily say it so people know I am not competent always in all areas.

Autism does have certain strengths.
Mine is my obsessive honesty and organic reason ability.
I used to think all ppl on the spectrum shared this.

 

[Jonn]

If there are any serious strenghs with autism, I haven't benifited from them. On Asperger's side, there are people who reach success, but they are far few inbetween the rest. Not to mention the rest of the autistic 'scale' who are really suffering.

Yep.

80% of those on the spectrum have executive dysfunction.
That puts us "behind the 8-ball" right from the start.

 

[NB79]

Yep.

80% of those on the spectrum have executive dysfunction.
That puts us "behind the 8-ball" right from the start.

I need to read about Executive Dysfunction, i don't know much about it.
Its your birthday? Happy birthday.

 

[Misty Avich]

Funny how autistics get accused of only seeing from our perspective when non-autistics are just as bad because a lot only seem to decipher any disabilities/disorders (whatever you like to call them) from their own perspective.
I have a friend with Down's syndrome who is actually more capable than you'd think, but often people talk to her like she's a baby or deaf, and think she can't speak for herself. They think they're considering her feelings but are going the wrong way about it because they can't put themselves in her shoes, because they don't have Down's syndrome.

I believe it's part of the human condition to only see things from our own perspectives unless we take conscious effort to think otherwise. It's why I get so mad when people only associate it with being autistic instead of being human.

 

[Ella Spell]

Autistics can have hyperfunction too.

ED (executive dysfunction) is often from ADHD.

 

[Outdated]

I believe it's part of the human condition to only see things from our own perspectives unless we take conscious effort to think otherwise. It's why I get so mad when people only associate it with being autistic instead of being human.

It seems to be a part of overall human nature and many people won't spend much time on introspection. How many think reading is hard work and like their opinions to be dictated to them by television?

I've known a couple of accident victims that spent a long time in a wheelchair, they also got treated like they were intellectually crippled.

 

[Misty Avich]

It seems to be a part of overall human nature and many people won't spend much time on introspection. How many think reading is hard work and like their opinions to be dictated to them by television?

I've known a couple of accident victims that spent a long time in a wheelchair, they also got treated like they were intellectually crippled.

True, and it's human nature. There's a foreign woman at work who doesn't speak much English, and when people talk to her they shout, like she's deaf. I understand to be clear and slow when talking to her but you don't need to shout, as she isn't deaf. It might intimidate her to have everyone keep shouting to her all the time. I don't shout to her.
But I can't put myself into everybody's shoes. Some people's situations I just don't get, but it's because I'm not perfect, just like everyone else.

 

[tazz]

So much in this thread I've been pondering myself.

the wisdom that I have gained over the years, after decades of making mistakes and feeling as if social life was an unpredictable minefield just waiting to blow up in my face, was to ask, give people the benefit of the doubt

Agreed. However, in my experience negative reactions happen often enough that these days I don't give people much wiggle room before losing my patience.

if a bird has a deformed wing making it unable to fly, the bird would be considered disabled. Well, I cannot fly. Does that make me disabled?

I'm coming round to the idea that "disabled" is something that is done to someone rather than something you are. As in, if society is constructed in a way that means you have to fly to get basic necessities like food, shelter, education, job, partner, money then yes: not being able to fly is a disability - you're being disabled by society.

obsessive honesty and organic reason ability

Just liked this line.

I believe it's part of the human condition to only see things from our own perspectives unless we take conscious effort to think otherwise.

This.

I've known a couple of accident victims that spent a long time in a wheelchair, they also got treated like they were intellectually crippled.

On the other hand, I had to use a walking stick for about a year and it was amazing how polite people were to me - not just offering their seat on the subway, but in general. I considered continuing to use the stick even after I didn't physically need it as the experience was so much nicer... and I'd always get a seat

 

[Misty Avich]

I'm coming round to the idea that "disabled" is something that is done to someone rather than something you are. As in, if society is constructed in a way that means you have to fly to get basic necessities like food, shelter, education, job, partner, money then yes: not being able to fly is a disability - you're being disabled by society.

Hmm, true, but I try not to blame society too much on my problems. I understand that society in general relies on social constructs, and without social construct we'd probably live like animals.
Money, fashion, gender, religion, days of the week, and more, are what makes the world go round. I can understand the value of it all.
The thing I'd like is to either be cured or to just be born NT, even if society did start catering to my anxieties.

 

[Outdated]

The thing I'd like is to either be cured or to just be born NT, even if society did start catering to my anxieties.

I felt like that when I was a kid. From my grandfather:

Don't go dreaming in the realms of What If. You can get lost in there. You play with the cards you've been dealt.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I very poor at computers, as they do not allow any deviation from rules, being a machine. Mathematics not an issue just do not expect me the memorize proofs concepts no issues. Probably why I prefer physics. I like the hand I was dealt.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Agreed. However, in my experience negative reactions happen often enough that these days I don't give people much wiggle room before losing my patience.

Is it your negative reactions, or theirs?

If it is their negative reactions, that "minefield" just waiting to blow up in your face, then, in my experience it is often because of some combination of (1) inaccurate language on one or the other's behalf, (2) not respectfully asking clarifying questions prior to reacting, (3) quickly reacting with cognitive biases on full display. As I suggested in some other posts, this takes a bit of retraining the brain and positive, calm, assertive demeanor.

I work with stressed-out, sleep-deprived, medically-ignorant, distrusting, parents. It's horribly stressful trying to be an advocate for your child when you feel you've lost all control. I've been trained over the years in how to deal with this. It's an active, conscious effort to calmly and respectfully let these parents vent their feelings with all their misinterpretations, ignorances, and biases on full display. Some people are not open to facts. Some have bought into the social media disinformation. Some are very reasonable people. Some will feel ashamed of their behavior and apologize. Some are just plain nasty people. All kinds. I often find it best to just sit down in a chair, very relaxed, and just listen to people and where they are coming from, pause, collect my thoughts, and discuss things without coming off as arguing. Yes, absolutely, there are times when I am very frustrated and would love the opportunity to throttle a parent's neck for demanding things that clearly would cause harm, but they refuse to understand. In which case, I just have to let it go and move on. Something about arguing with stupid people, they are a lot better at being stupid than you are, so no sense in staying on that path.

 

[Mary Terry]

Your post brings me right back to @lovely_darlingprettybaby 's post, of the challenge of being able to see that we don't understand some things, yet l don't feel shame for this, nor do l downgrade myself. Sometimes l truly can't see other's emotions, how they respond, and why it needs to affect me when it does truly slam me. Is it even black & white thinking?
How can we see what we don't get, it really takes stepping outside of our normal thought pattern and trying to be unbiased in general, no small feat. Does everybody struggle with this, including NT? Or is black and white thinking a survivalist hack?

Oh, yes, NTs also struggle with this.

 

[Ken]

Funny how autistics get accused of only seeing from our perspective when non-autistics are just as bad because a lot only seem to decipher any disabilities/disorders (whatever you like to call them) from their own perspective.
I have a friend with Down's syndrome who is actually more capable than you'd think, but often people talk to her like she's a baby or deaf, and think she can't speak for herself. They think they're considering her feelings but are going the wrong way about it because they can't put themselves in her shoes, because they don't have Down's syndrome.

I believe it's part of the human condition to only see things from our own perspectives unless we take conscious effort to think otherwise. It's why I get so mad when people only associate it with being autistic instead of being human.

Yes, there is a word for that condition; its called Bigotry.

I felt like that when I was a kid. From my grandfather:

Don't go dreaming in the realms of What If. You can get lost in there. You play with the cards you've been dealt.

I agree. jealousy is never a benefit.
Focusing on you own life is a major benefit.

 

[tazz]

Is it your negative reactions, or theirs?

If it is their negative reactions, that "minefield" just waiting to blow up in your face, then, in my experience it is often because of some combination of (1) inaccurate language on one or the other's behalf, (2) not respectfully asking clarifying questions prior to reacting, (3) quickly reacting with cognitive biases on full display. As I suggested in some other posts, this takes a bit of retraining the brain and positive, calm, assertive demeanor.

I work with stressed-out, sleep-deprived, medically-ignorant, distrusting, parents. It's horribly stressful trying to be an advocate for your child when you feel you've lost all control. I've been trained over the years in how to deal with this. It's an active, conscious effort to calmly and respectfully let these parents vent their feelings will all their misinterpretations, ignorances, and biases on full display. Some people are not open to facts. Some have bought into the social media disinformation. Some are very reasonable people. Some will feel ashamed of their behavior and apologize. Some are just plain nasty people. All kinds. I often find it best to just sit down in a chair, very relaxed, and just listen to people and where they are coming from, pause, collect my thoughts, and discuss things without coming off as arguing. Yes, absolutely, there are times when I am very frustrated and would love the opportunity to throttle a parent's neck for demanding things that clearly would cause harm, but they refuse to understand. In which case, I just have to let it go and move on. Something about arguing with stupid people, they are a lot better at being stupid than you are, so no sense in staying on that path.

I was a foster carer for several years and had similar experience working with the families of the kids I was looking after. Not only were some of them unreasonable and ignorant etc, but in some cases they'd also harmed their own kids. In a professional capacity, where I was working on behalf of the kids, it was different. Like you there were times I wanted to throttle those parents but I was focused on achieving an outcome for the kids.

 

[tazz]

Hmm, true, but I try not to blame society too much on my problems. I understand that society in general relies on social constructs, and without social construct we'd probably live like animals.
Money, fashion, gender, religion, days of the week, and more, are what makes the world go round. I can understand the value of it all.
The thing I'd like is to either be cured or to just be born NT, even if society did start catering to my anxieties.

I have to say I struggle with this. I'm torn. I kinda think that makes sense - it would be unreasonable to expect the 98% to live in a world designed for the 2%. And when there are quite a few different minorities, that gets even more difficult.

But then I also can't get myself away from thinking that it's not at all acceptable. We all live in a crowded world and we have to find a way to get along with each other even though we have different values and ways we'd like to live. Social constructs should be there to help everyone not just the majority. I don't think it acceptable at all that my life is more difficult because people are ignorant of or don't care about the needs of autistic people. In that sense it doesn't matter about the majority/minority thing. It's just about who's in front of you at the time. What does that one person need. How can I accommodate their needs. Social constructs built for the majority start to seem like the end result of lots of people not being compassionate or respectful of others. I mean, people don't sit down with a blank canvas and design an entire society - society emerges over time, from the millions of little transactions and interactions that happen every day.

I'm trying to think of some good examples... I almost think there are too many and I can't articulate my point with examples because as I focus on one example, it turns into a wider example, and before I know it I'm just waving my arm in a big arc and saying "bah, it's all just crap" - which it isn't, but it sure feels like it sometimes.

 

[tazz]

Devon Price in his book Unmasking Autism writes a lot about this, in particular "Chapter 8: Creating a Neurodiverse World". Some extracts:

"Most countries' legal systems, health care systems, and educational institutions approach disability using what is called the medical model of disability. The medical model understands disability as a condition that exists inside an individual person's body or mind. If you're disabled, you personally have a problem that must be identified, diagnosed, and then either treated or cured."

"...the social model of disability, originally coined in the 1980's by disabled academic Mike Oliver. In his writing, Oliver described disability as a political status, one that is created by the systems that surround us, not our minds and bodies."

"Having a social disability goes hand in hand with the obligation to mask. If stimming in public will get you assaulted or arrested, you are both socially dis-abled and forced to mask. If you struggle at work because you can't play by elaborate, unstated social rules, and you wind up unemployed as a result, you have been socially disabled and severely punished for your failure to mask correctly."

"As the psychiatric anthropologist Roy Richard Grinker writes in his book Nobody's Normal, our current definition of mental health is tied to the state and employer's desire for productive, inoffensive conformity. Emotions that are too large, passions that are too childish and not profitable, habits that are too repetitive, and bodies and minds that require daily assistance all challenge this incredibly narrow definition of health."

 

[Ken]

If there are any serious strenghs with autism, I haven't benifited from them. On Asperger's side, there are people who reach success, but they are far few inbetween the rest. Not to mention the rest of the autistic 'scale' who are really suffering.

I do think there are positive strengths that all autistic’s have. It seems we all have special interests of one sort or another. We also tend to have elevated sensitivities in some or many ways. Most of these interests and sensitivities are considered either useless or problematic. I think that is unfortunate, because that view is shortsighted.

There are autistic’s whose special interests and sensitivities have been very beneficial, but unfortunately not very many. Judging from my personal experiences, I find this to be confusing. I don’t even know what I am: ASD1, 2 or 3. For most of my life, my autism has been totally crippling. And from my perspective my life has largely been a psychological horror story, much like the old Rod Sterling’s TV series; The Twilight Zone.

My special interest was despised by my parents and forbidden by my school. I thought my interests and me was a very bad thing. It was hopeless, because I didn’t know how to not be me. I didn’t know how to be like everyone else. I had no clue how to be “normal”. I could easily understand the physical world, but I couldn’t understand the people in it or their society.

Now, at this stage of life, I feel that I was successful. However, my success was extremely unlikely. It wasn’t until after I retired and pondered and reflected on my life that I realized that I really did succeed. Before retirement, I considered myself a miserable failure. But, it’s like, how could that have possibly happened?? I never had any career plans that worked out. I never knew what I was doing. I have always been very confused about life. I now realize that my success was pure luck; just happening to be in the right place at the right time and just happening to meet the right people. Most of my job attempts were Twilight Zone horror stories. I was always petrified, not knowing how to act and knowing everything I did was hopelessly wrong. But then, on two of the many jobs, I ended up with the perfect situation. The boss recognized and wanted my special interest and agreed to let me work in total solitude.

Now at the age of 71, I am still mystified by people and society, but it is not quite as scary, because I have learned that I have a different umwelt, and I no longer bother trying to understand because I know I can’t. Likewise, I know “they” can’t understand me. Just an exercise in frustration to try. But, that doesn’t mean you can’t be successful – regardless how unlikely that might be.

 

[RemyZee]

Devon Price in his book Unmasking Autism writes a lot about this, in particular "Chapter 8: Creating a Neurodiverse World". Some extracts:

"Most countries' legal systems, health care systems, and educational institutions approach disability using what is called the medical model of disability. The medical model understands disability as a condition that exists inside an individual person's body or mind. If you're disabled, you personally have a problem that must be identified, diagnosed, and then either treated or cured."

"...the social model of disability, originally coined in the 1980's by disabled academic Mike Oliver. In his writing, Oliver described disability as a political status, one that is created by the systems that surround us, not our minds and bodies."

"Having a social disability goes hand in hand with the obligation to mask. If stimming in public will get you assaulted or arrested, you are both socially dis-abled and forced to mask. If you struggle at work because you can't play by elaborate, unstated social rules, and you wind up unemployed as a result, you have been socially disabled and severely punished for your failure to mask correctly."

"As the psychiatric anthropologist Roy Richard Grinker writes in his book Nobody's Normal, our current definition of mental health is tied to the state and employer's desire for productive, inoffensive conformity. Emotions that are too large, passions that are too childish and not profitable, habits that are too repetitive, and bodies and minds that require daily assistance all challenge this incredibly narrow definition of health."

Reminds me of the saying "normal is just a setting on the washing machine". It's like what is normal anyway--everybody has different ways of doing normal. It's just that whoever has more sway gets to define what it means and it's parameters. If I was surrounded by other autistics who I relate to, we would be our own norm and maybe we wouldn't consider it a disability as much as seeing it as a personality with certain inconveniences. I also have executive functioning issues, and often wind up fired, but if the world was geared toward autistic characteristics I wonder if things would be different.