the aspie identity

[Judge]

My basic feeling is one's identity is owned by the individual, not someone else.

Agreed, but at times one must muster a great deal of willpower and resolve to make it happen. Society at large does not make it easy.

 

[ForestGumpett]

....Autistic people have a distinctively dim understanding/facility with normal human social behavior. My observation is that autistic people simply do not have the hardwiring to support the normal social functions, but they are-for the most part-still wired as social beings. Just without the common instinct....
I view the behavior of neurotypicals as instinctive. They are no different than us in that respect. I try to keep in mind that it's very difficult to harness knowledge in such a fashion that it overcomes instinct. Which is why masking is so very damned hard for the autist, and why accepting us is so difficult for the neurotypical.

I disagree, biggly!

That right there makes us sound, well, like we are the one’s “not right”? I choose to think/believe it’s the NT that are just that, typical. Aspie ppl have extra senses or whatever you want to call it. They all think outside the box, and this is why so many invent and create.

Is it not us that allows the NT to take over so to speak, I have better sense than to want to take a job paying the same no matter how many hours I work or how creative I am to make that job better. I believe that many NT would be happy that way and okay, that’s wonderful! We are not better, but is it wrong to use gifts we have? If we can make others life better, then the NT need to step aside and make their schedules and whatever else they like to be in charge of all the while the Aspies AND the Aspergers create and make the world a better place?

I honestly do not care who gets credit for things that work out better - I do not answer to them.

 

[OkRad]

Until the medical community can accumulate enough neuroimaging data (there is plenty), and come to a common consensus as to what are the identifying characteristics of an autistic brain, diagnosis is going to be a bit nebulous for a while,...but we are getting closer each day. Perhaps the next generation of autistics and their families won't have these sort of questions.

The first time I heard the term "Aspie" was from Dr. Tony Attwood's lecture on YouTube,

. According to him, this term was coined by the Asperger's community, and it is a term that they use, often as a term of endearment. I don't know if that is true or not.

I have a strong sense of self, so I really don't hang onto labels that much, as I will throw around the terms Asperger's Condition, Aspie, Autism, Autistic,...pretty much interchangeably with my postings on this site. However, with others outside the community, I find I have to qualify my statements more clearly because although most have heard the term "autism" and "Asperger's", most people, even within the medical field have a very vague idea of what it is and/or have misinformed ideas as to what these diagnostic labels mean.

I think everyone wants to be accepted for who they are,...they don't want to have to "mask",...it is deceptive behavior. However, there are "societal norms", as vague as some may be, that must be followed in order to fit in and not be rejected. Naturally, autistics are a group of folks that find it a more difficult undertaking.

TOTALLY agree. We need better diagnositics for all forms of "mental illness" (I don't include Aspergers in there, btw)

 

[Aspychata]

As the OP struggles thru the varying definitions of Autism, it is still a giant octopus that is extremely hard to fit in to a tight little box and label.

Plus add in all the other varieties of the DSM then you have a quagmire of other considerations that color you and me and even the NTs.

It seems that we can't turn the aspie identity into a black and white synopsis to satisfy anybody.

 

[Nitro]

Why even believe in a religion if you don't think it is better than other religions?
What I find is that it is very important to see ourselves as human sinners with human dignity.
I really like the: "Death comes equally to us all, and makes us all equal when it comes."

This may strike home for you:

 

[Skittlebisquit]

@harrietjansson you have a keen and well trained mind. I wish things were a bit different. I would spend money to read your opinions, or hear you speak.

May we call the list of ten traits by a certain name? I think you likely have something to say about many of these items, in greater depth. If you do i would like to hear it. Is the attwood list an appropriate name? It needs a name.

Likely there are several.of those lists around, but there should be one that rules them all. A common agreement of well, cannon. Perhaps that is wrong word, cannon

So then as it is a spectrum disorder we each presesnt a given value for each item on your list. I hate multiple conversation for example and another may be prone to obsessive speech patterns ie 20 min disertation on a topic

She hates crowds and i enjoy being touched. That is the spectrum part. It sounds like the attwood text is important to you. Are you ready to call it cannon? Would you like us all to read it, So we may have a common frame of reference?

Ive not read the dsm series much, i have an older one somewhere, it lists any homosexual practice or ideation as a mental illness, or the symptom of a mental illness. That is no longer a widely accepted belief.

This was dsm3 i think. Its big and burgundy i think, not sure it might be white with stripes, those are the colors i remember from that section of my book archives. Its in reference, with the dictionaries. Im not going to go dig it out right now. There are alot of books here.

But i think its[dsm3] only about 30 yrs old, does that sound correct? The age of the dsm3? Circa 1989? This rapid of a change in ideology [homosexual acceptance] implies either a new science or a radical shift in cultural bias, or perhaps both. I think that, sadly, this may invalidate the work[dsm3] as a suitable source material, it might mean its corrupted by cultural or political influence. Perhaps as a volkswerk we should insist on only works that our own council (all having asd) approves of as relevant and accurate.

My pastor does that, kinda. She has books she lends out that she approves of. If you want to learn about bhuddism she will loan you a book, and then talk to you about it when you bring it back. Its a multicultural faith.

I think bookreviews would actually be a fun thread

Perhaps a mod can provide a short reading list, they are the ones who have seen or read the most out of all of us, in terms of whats been written. Lets say 12 extant works on autism spectrum disorder. See that way if we had a study group, we could have a curriculum. That is common work, or shared books isnt that archaic meaning of curriculum, same books?

I am still very immature at 48. I am not a socially active man. It seems that people are afraid of me sometimes. but like you, some of these catagories from your list are not issues for me. I believe strongly in the" us vs. them " you write of. Its a theme with me. I believe it to be the onset of true misanthropy, the turning away. Its not a safe practice to isolate, generally. Its a part of the great sadness

 

[Crossbreed]

I have some questions:
1. Who came up with the term "aspies"?

Asperger's Syndrome is the name of high-functioning autism in the DSM-4. Dr. Lorna Wing gave it that name based on the studies of Dr. Hans Asperger to distinguish it from the low-functioning autism identified by Dr. Leo Kanner.

In the DSM-5, Asperger's is now known as Autism Spectrum Disorder, severity level 1 [ASD1], but people still use "Aspie" colloquially.
[Kanner's] autism is now ASD2 & 3.

I understand that many people use the term in order to have an identity. When I called myself an aspie I looked up a lot of info on asperger's syndrome in order for it to explain nearly every issue (or the strengths) I have. MOst of what I found was a lot of theories (although there were practical tips as well).
Much of the info was about the fact that one should accepte how one is idiosyncratic. Both people with a diagnosis and other people wrote about it. I found a book in which the author (who had a diagnosis) said that much of the idiosyncratic behaviour can be problematic and should not just be accepted.

2. Is this acceptance thing always that good? Can you give concrete examples?

See Autlanders, Thriving Outside of the Box: Autism Subtypes...

What often happens is that when a diagnosis becomes your identity you meet other people with the diagnosis (or a similar diagnosis). Some people say that aspies should make aspie friends and that this is very good. This advice never worked for me. Sure I have met nice people with asperger's syndrome but we did not always have the same interests or they had difficulties that made the relationships difficult (which is why the got a diagnosis?).
3. Why do people even give this advice?

There are three major views of autism,

1. All autism is bad and must be cured and/or prevented (Autism Speaks).
2. All parts of autism are good (radical autistics).
3. Basic autism [ASD1] is good; it is neuro-diversity. The severe co-morbids that trouble ASD2s & 3s are bad and should be treated or prevented, if at all possible.

(I subscribe to #3.)

4. Should your common interest be asperger's syndrome?

For many ASD1s & 2s, it is a journey of self-discovery.

When I tried to call myself an aspies I had to look at the world through "aspies vs NTs". It became a lot "we and them". Sometimes I had more common with an "NT" than an "aspie". Much of it is personality and not the asperger issues or other issues that even NTs can have. Even NTs fid social situations difficult at times or they like looking at the details.
5. Can the "aspies vs NTs" really be helpful at all?

Understanding those neuro-social differences is necessary if we want to bridge the communications' gap.

 

[Au Naturel]

I have some questions:
1. Who came up with the term "aspies"?

I understand that many people use the term in order to have an identity. When I called myself an aspie I looked up a lot of info on asperger's syndrome in order for it to explain nearly every issue (or the strengths) I have. MOst of what I found was a lot of theories (although there were practical tips as well).
Much of the info was about the fact that one should accepte how one is idiosyncratic. Both people with a diagnosis and other people wrote about it. I found a book in which the author (who had a diagnosis) said that much of the idiosyncratic behaviour can be problematic and should not just be accepted.
2. Is this acceptance thing always that good? Can you give concrete examples?

What often happens is that when a diagnosis becomes your identity you meet other people with the diagnosis (or a similar diagnosis). Some people say that aspies should make aspie friends and that this is very good. This advice never worked for me. Sure I have met nice people with asperger's syndrome but we did not always have the same interests or they had difficulties that made the relationships difficult (which is why the got a diagnosis?).
3. Why do people even give this advice?
4. Should your common interest be asperger's syndrome?

When I tried to call myself an aspies I had to look at the world through "aspies vs NTs". It became a lot "we and them". Sometimes I had more common with an "NT" than an "aspie". Much of it is personality and not the asperger issues or other issues that even NTs can have. Even NTs fid social situations difficult at times or they like looking at the details.
5. Can the "aspies vs NTs" really be helpful at all?

Aspie is short for a person with Asperger's syndrome, still in use in Europe but now replaced in the US with ASD1 by the DSM-V. I have no idea who invented it but it is natural for people to shorten things to make it easy to say. "I am an Aspie" conveys a lot more information than "I am autistic" and rolls of the tongue easier than most other appellations one might choose. "I have Asperger's" would probably be more honest and correct but not as short.

One does not have a choices at all about certain traits. Those you must accept. It is what it is. There are certain sensory stimuli that drive me nuts and that will never change.

Other traits you have choice over whether to express or suppress. But understand that suppressing them will not make them go away. There will be a constant pressure from resisting them. That's what the mask is all about, suppressing your first reaction in favor of something socially more acceptable. Sometimes the mask is the right thing and sometimes it isn't.

And there are things that can be learned - or unlearned - that can mitigate (not cure) some of Asperger's more problematic traits.

"Acceptable" is just one person's way of enforcing their opinion. I just try to avoid hurting people, that's my standard. But then people will always find reasons to be hurt that I don't understand. (Or not really hurt, just offended or creeped out. And there's a lot of theater out there.) You just have to accept that some people will not like your manner and get on with life.

Most advice is given by people who don't have a clue. It is usually well meaning but not thought out.

Labels are useful things but they are also dangerous. You can use them to covey important information but people are prone to take them on as an identity. Other's use that label to pigeonhole a person and hem them in with stereotypes, expectations and limits. Next thing you know, you have identity politics which usually degenerates into "us vs. them," as you pointed out. That's NEVER good.

So, if your Asperger's is a vital piece of information, then one can mention it but otherwise it should probably stay out of your general vocabulary. Be a human being first or be pigeonholed. It is but one facet of a personality and you oughtn't to let it define you. I am so many things, a daddy, a husband, a writer, a former engineer, a former soldier, a nudist, an anime watcher, a photographer, a senior citizen, a retired person, an outdoorsman, an entertainer, and other things. I don't allow any of them to define me.

 

[harrietjansson]

@harrietjansson you have a keen and well trained mind. I wish things were a bit different. I would spend money to read your opinions, or hear you speak.

Nice to hear that someone thinks I have something good to say. I really do have good things to say. Not to brag or anything but in order to tell myself that I must use this info in order to live a good life. I need to do the examination of conscience and see if I live the good life I am capable of living.

May we call the list of ten traits by a certain name? I think you likely have something to say about many of these items, in greater depth. If you do i would like to hear it. Is the attwood list an appropriate name? It needs a name.

Likely there are several.of those lists around, but there should be one that rules them all. A common agreement of well, cannon. Perhaps that is wrong word, cannon

So then as it is a spectrum disorder we each presesnt a given value for each item on your list. I hate multiple conversation for example and another may be prone to obsessive speech patterns ie 20 min disertation on a topic

They are simply refered to as "Discovery criteria".
My biggest concern with those critera is that they say things like "strong preference for detail over gestalt".
Many professionals say that many people with ASD think in terms of systems, ie how everything connects. This is why some of us can become really good at something. We can see the real whole picture. Attwood semms to contradict himself.
This is the issue: people who try to say nice things about ASD often generalize or even say things that is not that true at all. With this criteria we can say that it is true in some situations but also not true in other situations. Attwood says that many "aspies" can become good engineers but in order to become a good one you need to look at the big system and not just details. You need the big picture.
There are many ways of seeing the big picture.
If Linus Söderström could not see the big picture how could he have become such a goog ice hockey player?
I failed team sports when I did not see the big picture and how my role fitted in the bigger picture. A person who was told to be o the left side of the field suddenly moved to the right side where I should only be.
If I had been trained in seeing the system in the team sports I would have become much better at it.
I think many of us need training in order to find the system so that we will not be stuck in some detail.

Ive not read the dsm series much, i have an older one somewhere, it lists any homosexual practice or ideation as a mental illness, or the symptom of a mental illness. That is no longer a widely accepted belief.

This is a controversial issue. Even one of the persons who wanted to remove it from the DSM said that more scientidifc research was needed. Many really do say that DSM is not that scientific.



My big concern is that "aspies" and "nt" categories make us think like this: If you have the asperger's syndrome you don't like to socialize in big groups but if you don't have the syndrome then you like it. It's not even true. I have met people who did not like socializing in big groups and did not have this syndrome at all. I even think they were a little autistic even if they did not have the syndrome. They were just a bit different. I cannot stand stereotypes!
Sometimes one of my issues are closer to what the so called non-aspier or nt would have than the so called aspie would have. Also, a lot what "aspies" struggle with are not really mentioned in the diagnosis. This means that we should not only llok for the diagnosis to tell us what issues we have. This is not even the purpose of a diagnosis.

 

[harrietjansson]

What do you people think of "discovery criteria" by Attwood and Gray? Are they helpful?

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Im not sure, it reads kinda nerdy and stuck up to me, like if i were to describe all african doctors do such and such, that would be fake, as i never been to africa and its a large and diverse place. Its likely well intended. I never been around alot of other aspies but a few, only i never asked them about what its like, and it was at work so i couldnt see them the whole time. Let me reread the list and see what it is

 

[Skittlebisquit]

peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability"
So "apsies" are always loyal? That would be a stereotype! How am I am such a loyal person?

"2. free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value""
Any evidence for this?

"3. speaking one’s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs"
Any evidence? Is this true for "aspies" but not for "NTs"?

"4. ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence"
How is that even positive?

"5. seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for unique interests and topics;"
Yeah but only focusing on interests can be problematic. Relationships need much more than that.

"6. consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest"
I miss details a lot!

"7. listening without continual judgement or assumption"
I judge a lot! I thought that was what "aspies" did all the time.

"8. interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid ‘ritualistic small talk’ or socially trivial statements and superficial conversation."
I kinda like some small talk! Again we are talking about a steretype!

"9. seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour"
I'm not sure this is even true. If you have difficulties reading people then how do you know that a friend is sincere, positive and genuine? Some "Aspies" can read people enough to seek the right friends but not all. This is nothing that is specific to ASD

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Sorry this phone is driving me bananas its not a computer. Its like driving a golf cart in rush hour traffic. I needed to see the list. 1 is written wrong bit well intended. Its a boundary issue for me. Pretend with me. You move in next door and are nice to me. You bring me food, and new socks and have me over and say nice things to me, and try to listen. No one treats me like that, so i thinknof you as my friend. When you start remodeling your house i end up working for you for free, because i love you for the socks. Not loyalty, that would imply shared ideology, or a common cause

 

[Skittlebisquit]

So i kinda have a problem with alot on the attwood discovery list. Lets try new source info, from a different head. Surely there must be other lists? You can ask tree stuff or for help, but it important to me that you are very courteous to her. Surely there are other lists of criteria for ASD 1[aspergers syndrome, high functioning autism] is that what you are interested in is just ASD1?

If so the query would be, @ tree would you please provide me with information on symptomology and diagnoses criteria of ASD1, [ then specify scope, like just this site, or what she thinks personally or what some specific person has said] that are approved of by the aspie central community in general and published here on this site?

Its important to be super nice to her,
[ not fake nice, real nice] i think she is probably the smartest mod and the one most likely to help. Also pretty sure that as a moderator she has a much better search engine, or is just lots smarter than most people in general, like a a high technical skill

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Remember you can dm other folks too including moderators. Your query has likely been investigated before, alot of us tend towards intellectualism, and the whole purpose of the forum is to provide information and support, for ASD

I dont like the attwood list myself, seems jaded. I get parts of it. Also its a different language basically. Dude is not writing that book for us, but rather for other intellectuals...

You kinda dodged the question i posed about whether the DSM is viable source material. If its worthless and i think it is[for us, or at least needs clarification] then lets try and find a more acceptable source

 

[harrietjansson]

Why do people even say that Attwood is so extremely good? It's like he is supposed to our saviour.
Do kids how have a meltdown at the supermarket just want acceptance and the "discovery criteria"? Sure, Attwood don't say that asperger's is only positive but with too much focus on the positive side we might actually start to refrain from seeing the extreme issues. Meltdown issues are not a joke, it's real.
Isn't Attwood too positive sometimes?
I hear a lot of "aspies" saying that if the world just accepted "aspies" as they are then we would have no problems. I hope I have missunderstood these people cause even with acceptance you have issues.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

So heres a nugget

In psychology texts or technical info on a disease " positive" and " negative" symptoms are Totally different than to the layman. Positive would be in addition to normal(posi=adds) negative is things that you are lacking kinda. Positive symptom would be hallucinations because its in addition to normal awareness
Ive not read attwood, i am not using youtube right now, it interferes with my harmony.
This will make your breakfast come right back up. Serious overlap between ASD1 and schizophrenia, also schizotypal, and bipolar. This msy be why its so hard to diagnose. Schizophrenia has no lab tests to say you have it, its all based on observation, subjective(me) interview and is often medicated to see what happens. Not kidding. If they kinda think you are schizo then they give you drugs to see if it helps

Proud of you for training yourself to be a better person, i dont have your resources but i still read aloud everyday. Also i try and practice gratitude awareness, as i wish to empower empathy

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I knoe im not supposed to dominate a conversation, we arent really supposed to double post, but i want to recvomend a book
Change your brain, change your life
Dr amens
Book is Still in print, if we could agree in that list of source matl that i suggested earlier i would vote for amens. If you can online find it look for term "ants" [ automatic negative thoughts]

You might try the thread search engine its too small for me to see well, but ehen you learn how to use it it is supposed to be able to pull up relevant data to a topic,
In loving kindness

 

[OkRad]

Why even believe in a religion if you don't think it is better than other religions?
What I find is that it is very important to see ourselves as human sinners with human dignity.
I really like the: "Death comes equally to us all, and makes us all equal when it comes."

Sad to say, but even in death, the differences in how people live leave striking attestations. In Pompeii,the wealthy have greenish tints to the their bones. They were wearing jewelry. The bones of poor people are less healthy. There are differences in their very structures.

Further, if you believe in religion, read Plato's Republic. The often (conveniently) forgotten first argument by Cephalus states that without money, man cannot live a life pleasing to the gods. Look at scriptures to back this up. Prostitutes, thieves, beggars, etc are said to be worthy of hell, but who decides to be prostitute? Has no one heard of Les Miserables? For a crust of bread, that poor man went into a man made hell. Women in Rome could be married, priestesses (if lucky) or prostitutes worthy of hellfire and damnation. Same with early France. Nun, married, or whore. And in England, if you are caught with a crust under your belt, to jail! Bad bad bad person says the one who has a full belly.

Lest you think Plato had nothing to do with the creation of hell, think again. Prior to that, people just lived and went to some strange place of quasi-being. Then Plato devised a way to make men fear and make "good" choices. Of course, these "good" choices were for the elite and described by them. They never thought some old whore trying to make a living would even be considered. These were wealthy dudes spelling out what is "good" and what is "bad."

Then Christianity, especially Augustine, ran with a lot of Plato. In COG he even describes all the other Trinities which were already kicking around. And Thomas Aquinas rounded things out with the other Man Who Cannot Be argued With (Aristotle) and We gots Theology, boys!

The disabled, the poor, those with dementia, etc are all at severe risk for hell fire and damnation, to such an extent that Augustine (COG) spends many a page wrangling over what to do with someone who is off their rocker, for whatever reason.

So now, we have a hell to assure people death is NOT the same for all. And the sins that place people in hell are just based on poverty, bad luck, and/or some disadvantage. No one decides to be "evil," however you decide to describe it. Don't steal (unless you are the guys in charge of stuff), don't be whore (unless you are the high class "escort" I have hired), don't be violent (unless you are MY bodyguard or lawyer then shred to your heart's content), etc

.....and boom! you get Joel Osteen with the Gates of Heaven wide open and my poor neighbour, a hopeless addict, evicted and so mental after years of trauma, he smashes everything he can....oh he goes straight to hell after a lifetime of misery.

Poverty, mental illness, disabilities.....they are such easy targets but I would have thought the gods were beyond men.

But it is men, especially neuroscientists, who are eclipsing the gods as they seeks answers and reasons and show the greatest amount of compassion based on science----

-------and still, the average person/judge/teacher/friend prefers to place people in hell, with as many platitudes as they can muster along the way.

What a species we are.

 

[harrietjansson]

Sad to say, but even in death, the differences in how people live leave striking attestations. In Pompeii,the wealthy have greenish tints to the their bones. They were wearing jewelry. The bones of poor people are less healthy. There are differences in their very structures.

There is a tune called Fattig trubadur which includes the words (using Google translate):
You can not take anything with you wherever you go
No you can not take anything with you wherever you go
You do not need money
When you stand at the gate
And you can take nothing with you wherever you go