the aspie identity

[harrietjansson]

Lest you think Plato had nothing to do with the creation of hell, think again. Prior to that, people just lived and went to some strange place of quasi-being. Then Plato devised a way to make men fear and make "good" choices. Of course, these "good" choices were for the elite and described by them. They never thought some old whore trying to make a living would even be considered. These were wealthy dudes spelling out what is "good" and what is "bad."

Off-topic!
Also, yes the Church used philosophy but Jesus mentioned Gehenna

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I found a book in which the author (who had a diagnosis) said that much of the idiosyncratic behaviour can be problematic and should not just be accepted.
2. Is this acceptance thing always that good? Can you give concrete examples?

I know that in some situations there is such an overload of thoughts and information that I have had meltdowns. I no longer accept that in myself and have modified my behavior so that I don't verbally hurt others. About your question; I try to avoid absolutes, like always. The acceptance that helped me significantly and helped me appreciate people was twofold. At work a cytologist I worked with befriended me. He was one of an old-fashioned hippie couple, very kind, and socially adept NT. They accepted me wholeheartedly for what they saw as my good qualities, and that was the beginning of learning to accept myself. The final dissolution of my cage of lonliness was being sexually accepted. Both of those led me to view tbe world as being more welcoming and exciting, permitting me to try new things to enjoy.

 

[harrietjansson]

The discussion missed a very important detail. It is not "details" but "non-functional parts/details" that the diagnosis describes and it never says that we are bad at gestalt. Only the criteria Attwood and Gray mentions it.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

yeah that's the bloody issue. I mean, the categories "aspie" and "NT" can make it difficult to see how we are individuals. It can give rise to stereotypes.

Attwood and Gray says in the aspies criteria and I comment:
"1. peer relationships characterized by absolute loyalty and impeccable dependability"
So "apsies" are always loyal? That would be a stereotype! How am I am such a loyal person?

"2. free of sexist, "age-ist", or culturalist biases; ability to regard others at "face value""
Any evidence for this?

"3. speaking one’s mind irrespective of social context or adherence to personal beliefs"
Any evidence? Is this true for "aspies" but not for "NTs"?

"4. ability to pursue personal theory or perspective despite conflicting evidence"
How is that even positive?

"5. seeking an audience or friends capable of: enthusiasm for unique interests and topics;"
Yeah but only focusing on interests can be problematic. Relationships need much more than that.

"6. consideration of details; spending time discussing a topic that may not be of primary interest"
I miss details a lot!

"7. listening without continual judgement or assumption"
I judge a lot! I thought that was what "aspies" did all the time.

"8. interested primarily in significant contributions to conversation; preferring to avoid ‘ritualistic small talk’ or socially trivial statements and superficial conversation."
I kinda like some small talk! Again we are talking about a steretype!

"9. seeking sincere, positive, genuine friends with an unassuming sense of humour"
I'm not sure this is even true. If you have difficulties reading people then how do you know that a friend is sincere, positive and genuine? Some "Aspies" can read people enough to seek the right friends but not all. This is nothing that is specific to ASD.

"1. strong preference for detail over gestalt"
Weak central coherence theory is not something all experts agree on. It's not that simple.
Even if the theory was true how would this be only positive?
Tony Attwood - Author of The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

if these points are steriotypes, bring it on I fit every one .dead on

 

[Au Naturel]

DSM categories aren't scientific in the sense that they don't explain anything and have limited predictive value. They are really a massive wall of pigeonholes that people are stuck into based on certain traits. Or maybe you could think of it as a massive file cabinet, where people get dropped into various folders.

It is only useful to the extent that people tend to cluster in groups according to certain traits. These clusters reflect some underlying truth. DSM makes no claim to identifying exactly what the underlying truth is, just that humanity tends to be lumpy and clumpy and we can sort people that way. It is a method for mental health professionals to be able to sum a person up in a few words, not a geometric theorem or even a scientific theory of human behavior.

Terms like Asperger's, ASD-1, high functioning autism, or whatever label you care to use only mean what the entity or person using them say they mean.

Of course, DSM only deals with whatever happens to be thought inconvenient for society at large. Being gay was once a category but then magically it wasn't anymore. It is hostage to the political and moral climate of the time. Today, in recognition, every entry says that a condition isn't a problem unless it causes problems.

 

[Jordy]

Whats up with all the religious stuff in this thread...

 

[Aspychata]

Again, that's what makes us such an impossible DSM entry. The many levels of us...........

 

[Gift2humanity]

I have some questions:
1. Who came up with the term "aspies"?

I understand that many people use the term in order to have an identity. When I called myself an aspie I looked up a lot of info on asperger's syndrome in order for it to explain nearly every issue (or the strengths) I have. MOst of what I found was a lot of theories (although there were practical tips as well).
Much of the info was about the fact that one should accepte how one is idiosyncratic. Both people with a diagnosis and other people wrote about it. I found a book in which the author (who had a diagnosis) said that much of the idiosyncratic behaviour can be problematic and should not just be accepted.
2. Is this acceptance thing always that good? Can you give concrete examples?

What often happens is that when a diagnosis becomes your identity you meet other people with the diagnosis (or a similar diagnosis). Some people say that aspies should make aspie friends and that this is very good. This advice never worked for me. Sure I have met nice people with asperger's syndrome but we did not always have the same interests or they had difficulties that made the relationships difficult (which is why the got a diagnosis?).
3. Why do people even give this advice?
4. Should your common interest be asperger's syndrome?

When I tried to call myself an aspies I had to look at the world through "aspies vs NTs". It became a lot "we and them". Sometimes I had more common with an "NT" than an "aspie". Much of it is personality and not the asperger issues or other issues that even NTs can have. Even NTs fid social situations difficult at times or they like looking at the details.
5. Can the "aspies vs NTs" really be helpful at all?

I don't know who coined the Aspie or Autie word, it's ok though.

I disagree that most of the idiosyncratic behaviour can be problematic, unless it's offensive, but we are all different.

I don't know the answer to your questions, some AS people don't need or ask for advice.

I can't speak for all AS people about common interest, I am still learning even though I am diagnosed.

Rightly or wrongly I tend to put AS people into two groups, developed and undeveloped, I exclude the Auties who need help to function yet some of those have savant skills.

Developed aspies tended to as kids, find creative ways to navigate life and grew up with savvy, know how, not easy exploited etc. They didn't care about losing fights so handled bullies ok and did not draw victimhood towards them. These types were ok as loners, and socially yet many preferred solitude.

Undeveloped may have had abuse, not found creative ways to deal with it, bullied, saw themselves as victims so drew bullying towards them. They too like solitude and overwhelmed by people, unable to recognise when personal boundaries breached, social awkwardness.

These are generalisations though, you can't think in black and white.

They are just a rough way for me to identify different types, I am still learning though, NT's are from planet earth, AS people don't come from planet AS, they all have their own planet

 

[Gift2humanity]

I don't like labels. I never have. Every time I go down the road of thinking I should probably get one, something interferes with it to remind me that it isn't necessary. This "us and them" mentality is not good for anyone. As has already been said, people can be good or bad whatever kind of label they are wearing. I also sometimes seem to connect better with NT rather than ND, and have had trouble connecting with other Asperger people.

While it is nice to feel like we belong to a group, I'm not sure what kind of group that would be. We are all so individual. To belong to a group makes me feel like belonging to a religion. This is how we think, this is what we say, this is how we say it, this is the hat we wear.

And what is a diagnosis anyway? An opinion from somebody we deem qualified who has tested us. But how many have been misdiagnosed? How many weren't officially diagnosed until much later in life? They were still being who they are until then. I'm not saying it can't help to understand and put things into place, but I do not like us and them mentality.

NT or AS it's nice to find your tribe, not talking labels, talking interests and values.
Us and them not good.
As for other Aspies, and NT's I take them how they come.
Aspies and all AS brains are wired differently so bound to feel on a different planet, I am learning that AS people are not from planet AS, they have their own individual ones

 

[Gift2humanity]

I dissagree!
One religion must be the true religion.
You might be relativist which contradicts itself I say but this is a bit off-topic.

but yeah it is bad to go to war just because you dissagree with someone or become a violent person just because your football team lost. I cannot stand football hooligans.


This is off-topic but let's say this: communism is famous for its wars.



and Judaism says: Judaism is the true and best religion.

Religion is about control.
The ancients Jesus, Sufi's, Hindus, etc were about spirituality, in more modern times it's about control and separation.
The Divine Creator, who isn't religious as it goes, not even Jesus, intended for this, war malarkey etc.

 

[Gift2humanity]

Until the medical community can accumulate enough neuroimaging data (there is plenty), and come to a common consensus as to what are the identifying characteristics of an autistic brain, diagnosis is going to be a bit nebulous for a while,...but we are getting closer each day. Perhaps the next generation of autistics and their families won't have these sort of questions.

The first time I heard the term "Aspie" was from Dr. Tony Attwood's lecture on YouTube,

. According to him, this term was coined by the Asperger's community, and it is a term that they use, often as a term of endearment. I don't know if that is true or not.

I have a strong sense of self, so I really don't hang onto labels that much, as I will throw around the terms Asperger's Condition, Aspie, Autism, Autistic,...pretty much interchangeably with my postings on this site. However, with others outside the community, I find I have to qualify my statements more clearly because although most have heard the term "autism" and "Asperger's", most people, even within the medical field have a very vague idea of what it is and/or have misinformed ideas as to what these diagnostic labels mean.

I think everyone wants to be accepted for who they are,...they don't want to have to "mask",...it is deceptive behavior. However, there are "societal norms", as vague as some may be, that must be followed in order to fit in and not be rejected. Naturally, autistics are a group of folks that find it a more difficult undertaking.

I get a freedom from telling people I feel need to know I am autistic, it stops me looking like a mentally ill person or a dickhead, same with ADHD although I haven't got round to getting that diagnosed yet.

 

[Gift2humanity]

What does "strong sense of self" refer to?

Someone who knows who they are, what they like, has values and a philosophy on life, and who can put down boundaries so others cannot breach them, also they cannot easily be fooled.

 

[Gift2humanity]

"And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more" Luke 12:48

I jive with that part of the bible, yet it reminds me of my wasted talents not discovered until middle age because I was too busy trying to fit in with the normals.

 

[Gift2humanity]

I like being Aspie and like associating with other aspies. I will never date another NT again. When I have troubles, the people I've known who I figure are NTs tend to be rather straight line reasoning about it. Get help! Or Straighten Up! Or punch to the head is their fav. I believe they are dangerous to a fragile Aspie.

AND I think they are boring as heck. If you are in a room with 15 PhD NTs who are employed at NASA, they will sit there and talk about the consistency of baby poop (seriously happened) or food or a ball game. Conversely, if you are in a room with Aspies who have no degrees, maybe even a homeless Aspie, I believe you will NEVER lack for good conversation. "....... the thinker without a paradox is like a lover without feeling: a paltry mediocrity." -Soren Kierkeagaard.

Lucky are those who find a lover with a paradox!

I just got informed of a peer group of autistics in my county, it's online at the moment, but I am interested.

 

[Gift2humanity]

I don't know if you understand me at all.
All I am saying is that the term "aspie" has in my case help me believe that I am a detailed-focused person and that I sucked at gestalt. It wasn't that simple. I often miss details. Attwood and Gray really did say that "aspies" are detailed-focused. I take lessons from a voice teacher and she often have to tell me the details I miss. How can I then be a detailed-oriented person? They have in my opinion (you are free to dissagree) simplified something. I sometimes focus on details if I find them but I can also the the whole picture at times.
Francesca Happé says that some autistic people see both the details and the gestalt at the same time.
This is not an easy topic at all. I am not a person who likes simplified explanations but other people like them it seems.

I home in on small details and yet miss some, I struggle with the big picture.

 

[Gift2humanity]

I started the thread because of one reason.
Many people have told me that it is important to "be yourself" and to accept your idiosyncrasy.
I am not even sure that what people refer to as an idiosyncrasy is anything else than something that could actually be dealt with. For myself I take lessons in diction and how to act. It works wonders. Then I get to blossom and be myself. Whether it will work for you I do not know but just "be yourself" can be something negative. This is why the "autism acceptance" can be problematic for me. Sometimes you just need training and not acceptance. With other issues I need more acceptance. You can go too far in both directions.
Many people on this forum have said that they cannot practice acting and diction and become more themselves. When I have mention acting to people with an ASD diagnosis have said that they don't like me mentioning acting. All they think of is "masking" rather than "blossoming and being yourself". They just want acceptance. This does not really work for me at all.
What do you think?

What do I think?
As an Aspie, my advice to my younger self "Listen to those who say "Be yourself" and disregard anyone who does not accept you because you are a harmless and innocent child.

 

[Gift2humanity]

I disagree, biggly!

That right there makes us sound, well, like we are the one’s “not right”? I choose to think/believe it’s the NT that are just that, typical. Aspie ppl have extra senses or whatever you want to call it. They all think outside the box, and this is why so many invent and create.

Is it not us that allows the NT to take over so to speak, I have better sense than to want to take a job paying the same no matter how many hours I work or how creative I am to make that job better. I believe that many NT would be happy that way and okay, that’s wonderful! We are not better, but is it wrong to use gifts we have? If we can make others life better, then the NT need to step aside and make their schedules and whatever else they like to be in charge of all the while the Aspies AND the Aspergers create and make the world a better place?

I honestly do not care who gets credit for things that work out better - I do not answer to them.

Thinking outside of the box is what I would like to learn as a skill, this box is sweaty, smelly and is overcrowded with people who don't have an original idea between them.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

AS people don't come from planet AS, they all have their own planet

I like that. But isn't it fun when planets align, whether NT or AS? The last trip i was on was with a group of Geologists or those for whom it was a passion. We valued each other's ideas and had a great time. As I do on such trips, I brought a couple of specimens I collected myself for each trip member. Not expecting such kindness one woman participant came up to me in near tears and hugged me. I was uncomfortable with the attention but let it slide, since their friendship on the trip was enough thanks for me.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

To me NTS are boring expecially the guys. sports ang locker talk are not my thing.