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The Autistic "Rationale-dependant" thinking style; thoughts and personal experiences?

I was agnostic most of my life just on the edge of being an atheist. My stroke really through wrench into that I Wanted proof just for myself and the last couple of years really shook me not just the waking up from the stroke but even more the strange message a year later as part of a dream you are the messenger period nothing else just this.
told my wife mentioned it here a few times other than that I kept this to myself. covid or physics? either way I received two messages the first just prior to me being woken up by my cat was the answer you seek is information.
and the second a year and a half later was you are the messenger. The first gave me a lot of insights in physics.
the second really bothers me like I tell my wife She will know once I'm gone and I not going anywhere soon. My next inflection point is still a bit over a year away.
 

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I do like a deep dive convo. It was somewhat of a digression and I debated with myself, a couple of nights ago about pulling it up, but, I thought no, stay the course, I'm sure it will be a good thought and writing exercise for us, if nothing more. People aren't likely to shift in their Cosmological paradigm, at least not overnight, unless maybe they have a deeply impactful experience. I do seek to expand my own and thus allow for an expansion to occur for other's also.

Yes, this was primarily for the conversation around a propensity to understand and employ levels of logical thought, which I maintain originates from such traditions as the Hermetic and subsequent Greek philosophers, Christian and Yogic and Islamic philosophers and theologists, and morphs into all of the "schools of thought" that we derive meaning from today.

I still maintain that an understanding of Ontology is a good expansion point, as it, perhaps, gives people a framework with which to question there own base, foundational assumptions. But that is merely a suggestion for those mindy intellectual folk who thrive on discourse and "observable data" , some people are content with subjective experience, and will follow their own path of meaning making in line with their personal experiences.

I could bring up the ENORMOUS body of data relating to apparitions of members of the Biblical Royal family, but, it might just be antagonistic to the atheists in the room. Then there are reports of Islamists having faith changing dreams with Issa/Jesus/Yeshua appearing so real, they instantly converted to Christianity. Then there's things like the bodies of saints not aging or deteriorating like "normal" cadavers, The indian Sage Yogananda is one such example. He was a recent holy man (as in just last century) to pass and and remain sweet smelling and whole . .for I'm not sure, haven't checked in in a while. But "Autobiography of a Yogi" is a fascinating dip into a non JudeoChristian "Spiritual Science" , journey, that could be more palatable for some "seekers" who have an aversion for JudeoChristian Spiritual traditions.
So what I'm suggesting is only for those questing and questioning the limitations of their own paradigm. Yes, in a scientific AND ontological and Spiritually questing, intellectually expounding exercise.
 
I could bring up the ENORMOUS body of data relating to apparitions of members of the Biblical Royal family, but, it might just be antagonistic to the atheists in the room.
That's nice.
what I'm suggesting is only for those questing and questioning the limitations of their own paradigm
Sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber.
 
That's nice.

Sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber.
Nope. That sounds boring.
And it's never happened. So why would I expect it to now?
And why would I want that?
How is that ,,"expounding" or relevant to the original topic or a thing raised here? How is that relevant to the topic of "logic"?
Especially as I'm such an anomalous weirdo, I really don't see how I'm going to find anybody who sees things the way I do.
It was merely an invitation if people want to challenge their own ontological paradigms, whether that be materialist to something more, or "Christian" to a broader overview of other geographically and culturally different "Spiritual" Wisdom Traditions or any one who is interested in broadening their logical mind and rhetoric development.
Not sure how I'm looking for yes men when I started a thread about "logic" which has built within itself the mechanism for "thinking" which implies thinking for oneself.
 
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Well, be sure to include lots of source references for your data, so the atheists in the room can help you in your quest to question the limitations of your paradigm - if it won't antagonise us too much of course, you know how sensitive we are.
 
@Neri

Evidence that could be the result of someone's imagination (potentially with artificial help) is of no value to science.
That kind of information can't usefully cross the subjective/objective barrier.
(it's why it's usually called subjective/objective rather than spiritual/physical though - the latter is too easy to manipulate via equivocation).

But science can't readily disprove subjective data either - at least not to the satisfaction of those who believe it.
So in practical terms the barrier operates in both directions.

All standing claims of things like incorruptibility (which could be tested) "never" are. On the rare occasions when such things are tested, they always fail the test.

IMO it's better for everyone if they're left untested.

BTW there are things like omniscience and omnipotence that, if they exist, aren't compatible with science.
But they can't be explicitly falsified either, so nothing much changes.
 
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Well, be sure to include lots of source references for your data, so the atheists in the room can help you in your quest to question the limitations of your paradigm - if it won't antagonise us too much of course, you know how sensitive we are.
I don't think so. I wanted a friendly discourse. Not this antagonistic type of "I'm on the back foot to start with" type of dynamic. Not enjoyable for me. I'm not compelled to try to prove anything to you. That would be me capitulating to your paradigm and it's just not interesting enough for for me to do so. It's not particularly good natured or, I suspect, open minded or receptive so it would be a massive waste of my, rather limited brain power and energy.

I'm pretty sure I have a dose of the COCO virus, the famous one, and I'm meant to be going on a journey to visit family states away, so my energy would be better served by focusing on getting well, not embarking on a sophist and harried intellectual power struggle with those not asking in a genuine way.

I'm not so autistic that I can't detect your condescending tone. It's not friendly. And yes, I'm typically direct. Typically honest. Not trying to offend. Just being my autistic self, well intentioned, and as is so very typical also, obviously misunderstood, as to what my intentions actually are.
I call things out as I see them, as do you, I see. That's ok though. I'm not offended any more than I've responded to. I won't hold any malice. It's just not enjoyable any more, when that underlying emotion shows it's way through. And it doesn't lend itself to a rigorous and LOGOS spirited discourse
 
@Neri

Evidence that could be the result of someone's imagination (potentially with artificial help) is of no value to science.
That kind of information can't usefully cross the subjective/objective barrier.
(it's why it's usually called subjective/objective rather than spiritual/physical though - the latter is too easy to manipulate via equivocation).

But science can't readily disprove subjective data either - at least not to the satisfaction of those who believe it.
So in practical terms the barrier operates in both directions.

All standing claims of things like incorruptibility (which could be tested) "never" are. On the rare occasions when such things are tested, they always fail the test.

IMO it's better for everyone if they're left untested.

BTW there are things like omniscience and omnipotence that, if they exist, aren't compatible with science.
But they can't be explicitly falsified either, so nothing much changes.
All good. You are coming from your ontological paradigm and me from mine. We shall leave it at that. We've already clashed in the past. I don't want another clash of the approaches. It might even be a clash related to my "more feminine" approach, to your "more masculine" one. After all I gave birth 7 times and thus my experience from a feminine point of view is probably very different from yours. We just have extremely different approaches to life, in general. So I don't want to get caught up in a "battle of the worldviews" type of thing. The clinical type of approach is reeeeaaaallllly not my bag. I don't mind incorporating elements of it, but not as a means of ontological gatekeeping.
We can keep things "mysterious" if you like. Myself? I don't see it that way. I don't relate to this modernist materialist worldview as reminiscent of anything related to my actual life experience or even my subsequent research into ontological questions.
 
I wonder why the issue of paradigms only seems to arise when talking about metaphysical stuff. We don't tend to talk about different types of truth or different paradigms when we go to the supermarket. If the assistant says "Sorry, we're out of cookies" no one says "well, I think you do have cookies, but you're just stuck in a materialistic paradigm".

It can get tricky because of course there are genuine things that happen which don't have a lot (or any) good supporting information. But when someone then says "that happened, I know it's unusual but it happened" I would have thought it's reasonable to expect that people might need something more before they're convinced. That doesn't mean they're being dismissive, or they're stuck in a materialistic paradigm, or they are likely to become angry or hostile if the subject arises - suggesting so would be condescending. Something like "You wouldn't understand, you're stuck in a materialistic paradigm, you're likely to just get angry with me so let's not talk about it" is insulting. Disbelief comes from a genuine place of intelligence, and experience, and curiosity, and an acknowledgement that people are sometimes mistaken and unfortunately people sometimes make stuff up.

Asking for source material or additional information is not about backing people into a corner and demanding that they explain themselves like an interrogation, or forcing them to capitulate to a materialistic world view. It's genuine curiosity, and a sign that people think critically and sensibly, and aren't gullible. It's the way in which we avoid getting conned and manipulated by nasty people - healthy scepticism is just that: healthy. It's a vital tool to protect us and help us all make sense of the world.

Hearsay is an odd one. On the face of it, it seems like if lots of people say they've experienced a particular thing, then that's pretty convincing - the thing must be real or have at least some foundation in reality. No smoke without fire. But the idea that if more people make a claim then it becomes more convincing, is interesting. Why do we need lots of people to say it before it becomes convincing? Why isn't one single person sufficient? I'd suggest that's the same mechanism at work - even people who would say they are not stuck in a materialistic paradigm think critically. Even they are doubtful of a claim if it's just one person saying it. Even they would seek further information before they are convinced. It's just really bizarre to me that someone would regard collecting more and more stories as an acceptable form of research and investigation, but asking for something other than more stories isn't.

In the end, I think talk of paradigms or different types of truth is not helpful. If someone's going to make a claim that the universe works in a particular way or there's some phenomenon in it, then I'm curious and it might affect me, so I'm interested to know more about it. If what they're claiming doesn't sound reasonable, it's not because I'm stuck in a paradigm or I'm some ignorant atheist, it's because - given all the things I've experienced so far in my life, the claim sounds wrong - so I've got questions. That's all it is: innocent questions.
 
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@Neri

Just for the record, the Subjective/Objective division is a very high-order split in the domain of understanding, language, and perception..

That's the point of it: "Objective" is about "things" in the broadest sense that can be proven to be what they are.
Anything that can be so proven is immediately moved in,

Similarly, things/concepts that can be neither proven nor disproven are outside it (subjective). Which leaves a huge amount of room for important stuff like spirituality.
This still leaves a grey area of course, but it can be safely left in the "subjective" category.

BTW we're not going to be able ton keep talking about this - not because we'll get upset, but because it won't be interesting for either of us. But since I replied, you get one "free shot": I promise I won't respond to your next post :)
 
I wonder why the issue of paradigms only seems to arise when talking about metaphysical stuff. We don't tend to talk about different types of truth or different paradigms when we go to the supermarket. If the assistant says "Sorry, we're out of cookies" no one says "well, I think you do have cookies, but you're just stuck in a materialistic paradigm".

It can get tricky because of course there are genuine things that happen which don't have a lot (or any) good supporting information. But when someone then says "that happened, I know it's unusual but it happened" I would have thought it's reasonable to expect that people might need something more before they're convinced. That doesn't mean they're being dismissive, or they're stuck in a materialistic paradigm, or they are likely to become angry or hostile if the subject arises - suggesting so would be condescending. Something like "You wouldn't understand, you're stuck in a materialistic paradigm, you're likely to just get angry with me so let's not talk about it" is insulting. Disbelief comes from a genuine place of intelligence, and experience, and curiosity, and an acknowledgement that people are sometimes mistaken and unfortunately people sometimes make stuff up.

Asking for source material or additional information is not about backing people into a corner and demanding that they explain themselves like an interrogation, or forcing them to capitulate to a materialistic world view. It's genuine curiosity, and a sign that people think critically and sensibly, and aren't gullible. It's the way in which we avoid getting conned and manipulated by nasty people - healthy scepticism is just that: healthy. It's a vital tool to protect us and help us all make sense of the world.

Hearsay is an odd one. On the face of it, it seems like if lots of people say they've experienced a particular thing, then that's pretty convincing - the thing must be real or have at least some foundation in reality. No smoke without fire. But the idea that if lots of people make a claim then it becomes more convincing, in itself proves my point. Why do we need lots of people to say it before it becomes convincing? Why isn't one single claimant sufficient? I'd suggest that's the same mechanism at work - even people who would say they are not stuck in a materialistic paradigm think critically. Even they are doubtful of a claim if it's just one person saying it. Even they would seek further information before they are convinced. It's just really bizarre to me that collecting more and more stories is an acceptable form of research and investigation, but asking for something other than more stories isn't.

In the end, I think talk of paradigms or different types of truth is not helpful. If someone's going to make a claim that the universe works in a particular way or there's some phenomenon in it, then I'm curious and it might affect me, so I'm interested to know more about it. If what they're claiming doesn't sound reasonable, it's not because I'm stuck in a paradigm or some ignorant atheist, it's because - given all the things I've experienced so far in my life, the claim sounds wrong - so I've got questions. That's all it is: innocent questions.
Why are you asking me to convince you of anything? It sounds like I'm not a credible source to you so why would you want anything more from me? I've said things. I've made my own claims. But none of what I've already said has impacted on you in any way other than to demand proof. Proof of what? What are you asking me to provide? If what people say has no crediblity, unless it's peer reviewed and published in a science journal, don't talk to a philosopher or a mystic, talk to a scientist. I'm not your man.
 
Why are you asking me to convince you of anything?
I don't think I am. If you make an interesting comment in a public forum I might have some questions because I'm curious. That's all.

If what people say has no crediblity, unless it's peer reviewed and published in a science journal,
I don't think I said that.
 
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@Neri

Just for the record, the Subjective/Objective division is a very high-order split in the domain of understanding, language, and perception..

That's the point of it: "Objective" is about "things" in the broadest sense that can be proven to be what they are.
Anything that can be so proven is immediately moved in,

Similarly, things/concepts that can be neither proven nor disproven are outside it (subjective). Which leaves a huge amount of room for important stuff like spirituality.
This still leaves a grey area of course, but it can be safely left in the "subjective" category.

BTW we're not going to be able ton keep talking about this - not because we'll get upset, but because it won't be interesting for either of us. But since I replied, you get one "free shot": I promise I won't respond to your next post :)
Look I'm sick at the moment. Not got a lot of anything to give right now. I'm ok with not being up to your standard. Honestly. I actually don't have anything to prove. I've said a lot on this thread already. While I've been covidy. And I'm pretty spent at this stage.
I like philosophy. But at this stage, I'm dealing with a huge energy deficit. And I have no idea what "One free shot" means. I'm not here to try to impress anyone. I was just sharing some of myself. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a particularly "modern" person. But I don't think these exchanges are hitting the mark with either of us. Yes "subjective" which is really all there is. No one is truly objective. We can't be. We are subjective creatures. We live in a shared reality and yet we all have an individual experience in it. It sounds like pedantics and semantics to say "objective" like we aren't talking about energy, atoms, molecules, light, particles moving endlessly and hitting our retinas of cones and rods and making meaning through our brains which are attached to our eyes. What is "object"? Still waves of energy, or particles, light absorbed by our eyes and reflecting other colours, made into meaning by our brains. Subjective to who ever is observing whatever it is they are seeing. But like I said. I'm tired. I'm sick. Don't expect anything impressive out of me. And I'm no one's "dance monkey" here to perform because other's demand it of me. I'm here of my own free will and I'm only here on my own terms, not beholden to perform or be clever. Just myself. Take me or leave me.
 
Sad to hear of your health issues, @Neri . Nothing demonstrates our connection to the physical like a sick body trying to power a busy brain.

I also used the word ‘paradigm’ in this thread, and have wondered at the word’s broader usages. I don’t pretend to have any authority for a definition, but maybe it would make sense if I define my own usage. Please don’t think I’m talking down to anyone, I’m efforting to be precise in my own mind.

When I am refining my paradigm, it is intended to be universal; that is my whole purpose in assembling it in the first place. Because, if lines A and B are truly parallel right in front of me, then they will still be separated by that precise distance beyond my eyes’ perception. If one’s global paradigm is correct, you can go to different vantage points along these rays and collect the same measurement. If you find a different measurement, it’s back to the drawing board.

But, as @Neri would remind us, word meanings change over time. When I hear the word used now, it often seems a noun for a framework with only local applicability. To me, the concept of a ‘local paradigm’ is useless and self-defeating. I get that a real estate developer might find it useful to speak of the paradigm of her proposed Richie Village, upon which paradigm hangs all the architecture and layout. Sure.

But the person trying to make sense of an unimaginably complex universe has little use for a local paradigm; they need an understanding which applies to both ends of the universe. (See what I did there?). The other-minded ontologist is destined for the mires.

Back to the present conversation…
This is why I prefer the spiritually oriented approach. As such, I am free to consider and adopt any scientific data I collect, because the spiritual reasoner does not discount the validity of scientific evidence, has no reason or obligation to do so.

Meanwhile, the scientific observer is beholden to his creed to accept only scientifically validated evidence, thereby forfeiting the benefit of strictly spiritually discerned evidence. Therefore, the spiritual approach encompasses a far broader range of information than the scientific. So, the strict scientist is important and to be commended for virtuous discipline, but one wouldn’t turn to him for a full bodied understanding of a universe composed of both spiritual and scientific elements.

All of this might be profitably considered when about to betray condescending thoughts about how the spiritual person is ‘satisfied’ or willing to ‘settle’ for what might be considered an inferior dataset. Because that attitude is born of a woefully incomplete data set.

But some people don’t have whatever it takes to free themselves from the strictly scientific approach, and I don’t have a problem with that. Just as every driver must pilot their own vehicle, each seeker has to operate within their own paradigm. I, personally, have no bone to pick with the guy actually driving the speed limit on the freeway… as long as he stays in the slow lane and doesn’t flip me off for blowing by him in the fast lane.

See what I did in that last paragraph there? Maybe one single reader will read it and understand what the objective spiritual seeker endures regularly from the scientific crowd. ‘No, no; we fully respect your right to be less than you could be.’ While my pleasant sparring partner earlier in the thread betrayed a less-than attitude towards spiritual understanding, I enjoyed sharpening blades with him because I didn’t sense that sort of personal judgment.

‘Wait!’ I hear you cry. ‘Did that guy just use the words ‘objective’ and ‘spiritual’ in the same phrase? Call the logic guards and word police!’

This was the point I was trying to make to @tazz . One can do both, and chew gum at the same time. As a Christian, I constantly hear garbage doctrine (in my personal parlance, that means there is no way it is consistent with the Bible) from some excited seeker; unfortunately, that’s part of the Protestant landscape. As a teaching elder, it sometimes fell to me to disabuse the congregant of their confusion… meaning, I have experience dealing with the breached-dam excitement often associated with ‘new’ heresies. It’s even more trying than discussing politics with a first-year polisci student. I understand that this phenomenon is Not restricted to spiritual thinkers, and one cannot currently turn on the TV without seeing people all in an ecstatic rage over something of which they demonstrate no understanding. Those people were raised in a world enamored of the scientific paradigm, overwhelmed by emotion. Many scientists, likewise, have allowed their social instincts to manhandle their reason.

All of which is to say that humans, in my estimation, do not typically strive to assemble a global paradigm, rather settle for localized understandings which help them get through the day. The spiritual investigation is by no means haphazard, and properly strives after an understanding that encompasses both the physical and spiritual realms. Because, after all, there’s only one universe and its physical and spiritual aspects are inextricably linked.
 
the scientific observer is beholden to his creed to accept only scientifically validated evidence, thereby forfeiting the benefit of strictly spiritually discerned evidence. Therefore, the spiritual approach encompasses a far broader range of information than the scientific. So, the strict scientist is important and to be commended for virtuous discipline, but one wouldn’t turn to him for a full bodied understanding of a universe composed of both spiritual and scientific elements.
In your spiritual life to you ever decide to act as if something is true even though you understand that it isn't?
 
Also, what would be an example of something that is "strictly spiritually discerned evidence" that isn't "scientifically validated evidence"?
 
Would you be able to give me an example to help me understand this? I tried to think of a hypothetical one when I asked my question but couldn't.
Don’t know if giving an example or two wouldn’t pull us off course. Does it answer to say that, meaning for me, it usually falls under the heading of sin? (Great place to speak of the role of faith, but I’ll hobble along without that critical piece.)

I’m lifelong diabetic. I know God doesn’t want me to degrade my body, but I will overindulge in sweets. So I know it’s against my own best interest as well as against the Lord’s will, but do it anyway. For the non-believer, just foolish, but for me a sin on those two counts. A denial of truth.

Useful?
 
Thanks but no that wasn't what I was referring to. I see now that my question wasn't clear at all. You answered my question but that's not was I was intending to explore. My bad. I'll try again... hopefully this will work... something like if god told you x is true but you decide god is wrong, so you're rejecting spiritually discerned information. Anything like that ever happen?
 

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