There's a lot of overthinking going on here recently.

[Raggamuffin]

In response to the OP - my ex often said "people don't think like you do."

Sometimes she told me to "stop thinking". Would it were so simple.

Ed

 

[Suzette]

The tree was upright the last time you saw it and then laying down the next. If no one was there to perceive the change, can you be certain that something happened to change it, other than remembering how it was and imagining what must have taken place?

Can you be certain "you" are here at all?

 

[Martha Ferris]

'You think too much'[/QUOTE]
When I have been told this I am tempted to say "It's better than not thinking at all!"
For many thinking is just too difficult it seems.

 

[SimonSays]

Can you be certain "you" are here at all?

Well, that would depend on what you define as 'you' and what you call 'here'.

 

[SimonSays]

@Suzette

If your question is really asking do I actually exist...
Then my answer will be yes, at least based on the idea that something is having an experience from my perspective. I am aware of that experience. Therefore I am.
What I am is a whole other discussion

 

[Suzette]

@SimonSays,

"I think therefore, I am" - Descartes

Obviously self validation but one could take this further to: "I think therefore, I am and in being, that is existing, through my thoughts, I am self created"

 

[SimonSays]

through my thoughts, I am self created"

True...we are all self-created in that sense. But what if we can know a state of emptiness, as Zen talks about? Who are we then without our thoughts to define us?

 

[Suzette]

True...we are all self-created in that sense. But what if we can know a state of emptiness, as Zen talks about? Who are we then without our thoughts to define us?

The conclusion would be "you are not your thoughts".
This is not really a circular agrument. Rather it is an acknowledgement that that there are two kinds of "thought". Thought of the mind which is judging and percieving and thoughts not generated by the mind which is experiencing. Where do these other thoughts come from? Some would say that we are only an expression of universal consciousness.

 

[SimonSays]

thoughts not generated by the mind which is experiencing

Hmmm...you are saying that experiencing (or awareness) is a form of thought? I'm not sure I follow.

I can see there are different levels of thought. The everyday, mundane chatter most of us live with. We might sometimes get an intuitive thought popping up or an inspired one. Occasionally some real insight occurs, even an epiphany, perhaps something not thought of by anyone before. And sometimes just as great realisations are being made, so they are appearing in others, seemingly unconnected, in other parts of the world, revealing how connected everything is to this universal consciousness idea.

And yet we do seem very individual in many ways. Individual parts coming out of this conscious whole, somehow making it more than it is. On our way back, but to what? A greater awareness? More of who we are? There is a point. It isn't random. And yet the more we think about it the less we actually know. All our ideas, theories, beliefs, eventually must go. Thought is of the mind, and yet we are more than that.

 

[Suzette]

Hmmm...you are saying that experiencing (or awareness) is a form of thought? I'm not sure I follow.

You follow just fine as evidenced by your statements that follow this question.

You haven't really "thought" those ephanies, seemingly they arrive "from nowhere". You "experience" those ephanies rather than "think" them. Is the mind envolved in the creation of those ephanies or just the mechanisim that interprets the experience?

This is just a question I have pondered and I don't even want an answer to that question. Likely some scientist will declare they have the answer and scoff at these ideas. But that just takes the fun out of living if you always have the answer like an ingredient in a recipe.

 

[SimonSays]

You follow just fine as evidenced by your statements that follow this question.

I suppose I do

You haven't really "thought" those ephanies, seemingly they arrive "from nowhere". You "experience" those ephanies rather than "think" them. Is the mind envolved in the creation of those ephanies or just the mechanisim that interprets the experience?

Good question. Here's the thing though...

It could just be a deeper part of our mind processing in a way we don't understand. Suddenly, out of nowhere, something arises we weren't consciously thinking about. It doesn't mean something wasn't thinking about it.

However, the mind could certainly be just the receiver of the experience. Something else has revealed it, via an unknown mechanism. It may not even matter really. The fact is something is going on, encompassing a vastly greater awareness, and we are just in a state of recognition. What matters is what we do with what we receive. That's where we get to shine.

 

[Suzette]

However, the mind could certainly be just the receiver of the experience. Something else has revealed it, via an unknown mechanism. It may not even matter really. The fact is something is going on, encompassing a vastly greater awareness, and we are just in a state of recognition. What matters is what we do with what we receive. That's where we get to shine.

Exactly!

 

[Aspychata]

To me, l wonder of emptiness. To erase your mind of thoughts
- NT concept?

What would a ND zen concept be? To stay only on one thought stream?

Are we as ND just more aware of our thought processes and NT's aren't or refuse to be tuned in to this?

Should we break down philosophy school into neurodiverse and others?

 

[Suzette]

To me, l wonder of emptiness. To erase your mind of thoughts
- NT concept?

What would a ND zen concept be? To stay only on one thought stream?

Are we as ND just more aware of our thought processes and NT's aren't or refuse to be tuned in to this?

Should we break down philosophy school into neurodiverse and others?

I never attempt to not have thoughts. I simply choose not to follow the thoughts into judgment and conclusion.

 

[SimonSays]

I never attempt to not have thoughts. I simply choose not to follow the thoughts into judgment and conclusion.

That is the way to do it IMO. Actually attempting to not have thoughts tends to make them more prevalent.

Once one’s thoughts are no longer given the usual attention and energy, you may start to notice at times there are moments when no thoughts are there at all. At first noticing creates thought again, but at some point thoughtless awareness is experienced. The beginnings of the Zen mind.

 

[ForestGumpett]

I see empty as a good thing because my mind races, when the thoughts are coming at you so fast that you cannot process it then it’s very annoying. This is what happens to me, not speaking for anyone else. I had self medicated with weed for years to slow the thoughts out and it works really well. Glad so many states are legal now, the other meds the doc gave me made me worse, the weed slows me down just enough and it’s controllable.

How do you handle so many thoughts coming at you? Sure it’s easy to think of Mary has 3 apples and Harry has 3 oranges but some can’t stop at that like what kind of apples and were the oranges ripe or did they really have red small grapefruit, and do they really give them away or do they eat them, and if they eat them does this mean they still have them?

See what I just did^^^, that is what my brain does. Math was pure evil and a horrible class to be in for me personally. When the thoughts go all over the place then nothing gets learned in my case.

I’d give anything for an empty head that is relaxed and no stress. Not sure why the bunny trails lead me all over the place but it is bothersome.

Empty of the belief that oneself is a separate entity with an indepenent existence, apart from all
others.

I understand since all is connected. Nothing is separate.
But, what of free will consciousness?

The complete inner-silence is what feels strange and empty.
Guess I need to think about that.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

That is the way to do it IMO. Actually attempting to not have thoughts tends to make them more prevalent.

Once one’s thoughts are no longer given the usual attention and energy, you may start to notice at times there are moments when no thoughts are there at all. At first noticing creates thought again, but at some point thoughtless awareness is experienced. The beginnings of the Zen mind.

I think that I have come close, but from giving myself over to the immediate NOW. Facing a class IV drop in an open canoe, like Big Mallard on the Salmon or Hell's Half Mile in Lodore on the Green, and I am so aware of all the sensations; I am the boat, I feel the river, I sense my momentum and angle and lean, that I am entirely running on trained reflex following a line that I should "know" but now it is made physical. Time slows, but that must be the Adrenaline. No sensation like that in the world. None.

 

[egotrice]

Listening to others speak their thoughts is so comforting but listening to my own makes me want to shut off my brain.

 

[Suzette]

I think that I have come close, but from giving myself over to the immediate NOW. Facing a class IV drop in an open canoe, like Big Mallard on the Salmon or Hell's Half Mile in Lodore on the Green, and I am so aware of all the sensations; I am the boat, I feel the river, I sense my momentum and angle and lean, that I am entirely running on trained reflex following a line that I should "know" but now it is made physical. Time slows, but that must be the Adrenaline. No sensation like that in the world. None.

I have experienced something like this but it was "close encounters of the wild animal kind".

When I was on my honey moon in Grand Canyon National Park we encountered a cougar cub in the verge between our camp site and the next. It was very young. There was a sandstone cliff that ran the length of our site and we could see the mama pacing back and fourth. At first we decided to take a walk and give mom time to collect her cub but when we returned to our site a couple of hours later the cub was still there.
So we just went to bed.
Sometime in the middle of the night I awoke to the sound of snuffling all around our tent. The snuffling was just near my head, inches away. My husband woke up and his eye grew wide "What do we do?"
"Sleep" I said.
But for a few minutes we listened as the mother lion checked us out and time did seem to slow. I felt so calm and peaceful and truly part of the world, not an observer.

In the morning we could see the lion tracks right against our tent walls. She had checked us out good! The cub was gone.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

@Suzette What an experience! Yes, big cats are impressive. Saw one crossing in front of me while riding the bike trail near me. The length of the tail was a giveaway. There is a bobcat that comes onto my property, never close to the house. I can see where it is marking its territory by the clawing on fallen trees to leave a scent.