Transgender non-binary (actual question)

[kenaij]

So I was watching some videos on youtube and I came across a video about a person who will be participating in the women's world cup for football (soccer)
The video stated this person was Transgender non-binary.
I know there are some members who are quite knowledgeable about the deeper meaning within the LGBTQ+ community.
I know what either words mean. Or at least I think I do.
So as I know it:
Transgender: Not identifying with the gender associated with your chromosomes. So someone with XY feels like a women.
Non-Binary: A person does not identify as either a men or a women. But rather something in between? Roughly. You don`t feel pink or blue but rather you feel purple (blue and pink mixed) for the lack of a better analogy.

So to me. Taking the above oversimplified explenations of the terms. How can a person be both?
To me, you can`t because the two don`t mix.
It seems like an either or to me.

But please explain. I`d like to learn.

 

[VictorR]

I'm trying to answer from a phone here, my apologies for any errors - anyone - please feel free to step in to correct as needed and apologies in advance for errors if any.

Trans is when someone identifies with a gender other than what they were assigned at birth. Keep in mind that most places traditionally and even now might only allow F or M. That means that if someone has ambiguous genitalia for example the doctors and/or parents may just pick one, which might even entail surgery on the child to make them better fit the expected appearance if the gender they were assigned.
Note that the child has no say in any of that.
Note that chromosomes have nothing to do with gender assignment, which is often a rush decision to put something on the birth certificate.

NB, broadly, is anyone who isn't F or M. It's a spectrum that is wide encompassing and may include those who do not identify with either binary gender at all in addition to those who are gender non-conforming.

Therefire, anyone who identifies as NB who wasn't assigned as X or NB at birth would be trans NB.

 

[Sablerose]

Its all so hard to keep straight, I only care if a person is nice or not, none of that other stuff matters to me. I have had friends in all walks of life so to say. When I was younger, before all the meds I probably would have understood it all. Before all the wrong meds. Sure I want to respect a person and their choices but do I really need more then are they nice to myself or others? Sorry if I offended anyone, I just am trying to understand.

 

[kenaij]

Its all so hard to keep straight, I only care if a person is nice or not, none of that other stuff matters to me. I have had friends in all walks of life so to say. When I was younger, before all the meds I probably would have understood it all. Before all the wrong meds. Sure I want to respect a person and their choices but do I really need more then are they nice to myself or others? Sorry if I offended anyone, I just am trying to understand.

I generally do feel much like you. I`m in a position that I don`t neccesarily agree with a lot of the things. There is a transgender boy at the school I work at. He is in a very bad place. Does it really matter how I feel about his personal choices and how his parents act on them? No. I see a child who has panic attack amongs other things that belong to a group of people with a really high risk of suicide. I do everything I can to help this child within his and his parent's rules and choices. My own opinion does not matter at all in that situation.

But that does mean I really want to know and understand everything I can about the LGBTQ+ community. So I can use that knowledge with my students or in other situations.

 

[kenaij]

I'm trying to answer from a phone here, my apologies for any errors - anyone - please feel free to step in to correct as needed and apologies in advance for errors if any.

Trans is when someone identifies with a gender other than what they were assigned at birth. Keep in mind that most places traditionally and even now might only allow F or M. That means that if someone has ambiguous genitalia for example the doctors and/or parents may just pick one, which might even entail surgery on the child to make them better fit the expected appearance if the gender they were assigned.
Note that the child has no say in any of that.
Note that chromosomes have nothing to do with gender assignment, which is often a rush decision to put something on the birth certificate.

NB, broadly, is anyone who isn't F or M. It's a spectrum that is wide encompassing and may include those who do not identify with either binary gender at all in addition to those who are gender non-conforming.

Therefire, anyone who identifies as NB who wasn't assigned as X or NB at birth would be trans NB.

Thank you for the clarification. That last line clears it up quite well. I don`t know enough about the athlete, just heard the term used. So this person might actually be the way you discribe.

The text before I don`t fully agree with thou. I understand what you are talking about but to say gender assignment is a rushed decision it a bit odd. If 98.3% to 99.982% of the cases are correct when looking at genitalia I would call it a pretty accurate way of telling someone's sex. (numbers based on the 2 most popular percentages of intersex people 1.7% and 0.018%)

I do however have always found it strange they call it a gender assignment instead of a sex assignment since that would be more accurate.

On a side note. A little while ago a person in the Netherlands (my country) gave an identification card to a person with neither M or V (our letters for male and female) but instead an X. This person is intersex and thus the rules were changed to allow this person to have a correct identification card (in the EU this is used instead of a pasport)

 

[Sablerose]

Kenaij I understand completely, I would want to help the child too. In a situation like that I would think learning what it all means is important. Anyone in the "helper" jobs as I like to call them, doctors, teachers, police. I think awareness and education is always important for everyone but much more so for those type fields. I know there was nothing really on that in my emt training (or even autism for that matter) but that was decades ago. I hope it has changed out there for the better, everyone deserves to be treated with respect I feel so guess I should learn more too

 

[Princess Viola]

Hi, someone who is trans and non-binary here.

Non-binary is not 'being inbetween male and female', it's just an umbrella term for gender identities outside the male/female binary. We might identify as a third gender, more than one gender, no gender, or even a fluctuating gender identity.

In the case of myself, I'm transfeminine non-binary. I was AMAB (assigned male at birth) but my gender identity (and how I want to present myself) is feminine. In fact, if it wouldn't confuse people, I would just say my gender is feminine. Not female but feminine.

If you want to be really confused, there are non-binary people (myself included) who will also refer to themselves by the binary gender identity that they're closest too. Like considering I'm transfeminine and all that, I literally do not care if someone calls me a woman (and I'll call myself a woman too - if people get mad at it, they can stay mad because it's my identity, not theirs) and I know some other people who are transmasculine and non-binary who don't get bothered if people call them a 'man' because their gender identity and how they present themselves to the world is masculine. (Of course, this all depends on the individual - there's plenty of non-binary people who might present feminine or masculine and yet don't want to be called a 'woman' or a 'man' regardless of how they present themselves)

 

[Sablerose]

Hi, someone who is trans and non-binary here.

Non-binary is not 'being inbetween male and female', it's just an umbrella term for gender identities outside the male/female binary. We might identify as a third gender, more than one gender, no gender, or even a fluctuating gender identity.

In the case of myself, I'm transfeminine non-binary. I was AMAB (assigned male at birth) but my gender identity (and how I want to present myself) is feminine. In fact, if it wouldn't confuse people, I would just say my gender is feminine. Not female but feminine.

If you want to be really confused, there are non-binary people (myself included) who will also refer to themselves by the binary gender identity that they're closest too. Like considering I'm transfeminine and all that, I literally do not care if someone calls me a woman (and I'll call myself a woman too - if people get mad at it, they can stay mad because it's my identity, not theirs) and I know some other people who are transmasculine and non-binary who don't get bothered if people call them a 'man' because their gender identity and how they present themselves to the world is masculine. (Of course, this all depends on the individual - there's plenty of non-binary people who might present feminine or masculine and yet don't want to be called a 'woman' or a 'man' regardless of how they present themselves)

All that sounds very confusing. It was not that complicated when I was younger but now its so very specific not blanket terms I guess it what it comes down to. Thank you so much for clarifying that for me at least. I try to use the right terms but its not easy for someone outside to easily understand. I know even within the community there were always discussions and arguments over how things were said and what was proper and what was not but things change, hopefully for the better. Thank you again I am probably still confused but I think i understand a bit more now.

 

[Magna]

All that sounds very confusing. It was not that complicated when I was younger but now its so very specific not blanket terms I guess it what it comes down to. Thank you so much for clarifying that for me at least. I try to use the right terms but its not easy for someone outside to easily understand. I know even within the community there were always discussions and arguments over how things were said and what was proper and what was not but things change, hopefully for the better. Thank you again I am probably still confused but I think i understand a bit more now.

I don't know how old you are, but it sounds like you have a genuine interest in respecting people and as such, I hope you aren't critical of yourself in thinking the societal changes in relation to gender identity is too difficult for you to keep track of.

It's 100% fact that the older a human gets the more difficult it is for them to learn something new. Even if some people try to learn a new language, learn how to operate a TV remote with many different buttons or...learn new and rapidly evolving gender and pronoun references, they may not be able to learn them due to their age. That's fact. Younger people who've grown up in and with the current gender references and find it easy to learn are flat out ageist if they hate on, criticize, etc older people who have good intentions but can't grasp the significant and multi-faceted restructuring of a societal norm that's been in place since time immemorial.

 

[Sablerose]

I'm almost 60 now Magna, I was very active in the community when I was young I stood by people in school bullied for it and supported them as best I could. Heck I've never quite fit into the whole girl thing I was born with lol but it is what it is. In the 80s it was pretty darn scary the violence , heck you heard about this friends mom or that friends dad finally trying to come out after 4 kids and a 30 year marriage all the time it seemed. One of my best friends in college even asked me to marry him just for appearances, he was studying to be a lawyer and was afraid he would never get work if he came out. I'm sure these are no longer terms but its what I know and lived back then. I can only hope things like that are no longer an issue, that things got better...they added so much I just get lost though.

 

[kenaij]

Hi, someone who is trans and non-binary here.

Non-binary is not 'being inbetween male and female', it's just an umbrella term for gender identities outside the male/female binary. We might identify as a third gender, more than one gender, no gender, or even a fluctuating gender identity.

In the case of myself, I'm transfeminine non-binary. I was AMAB (assigned male at birth) but my gender identity (and how I want to present myself) is feminine. In fact, if it wouldn't confuse people, I would just say my gender is feminine. Not female but feminine.

If you want to be really confused, there are non-binary people (myself included) who will also refer to themselves by the binary gender identity that they're closest too. Like considering I'm transfeminine and all that, I literally do not care if someone calls me a woman (and I'll call myself a woman too - if people get mad at it, they can stay mad because it's my identity, not theirs) and I know some other people who are transmasculine and non-binary who don't get bothered if people call them a 'man' because their gender identity and how they present themselves to the world is masculine. (Of course, this all depends on the individual - there's plenty of non-binary people who might present feminine or masculine and yet don't want to be called a 'woman' or a 'man' regardless of how they present themselves)

Thank you very much for this very well put together explanation. Specifically About non binairy being an umbrella term. I did know about the term gender fluid. I had a student who wore one of three bracelets by which one could tell how to adress them on that day. Sometimes they would even change during the day. Clothing styles did not always match the bracelet so we could not go on that. I believe they called themselves gender fluid.

It is important to me to understand the quickly evolving landscape. It is hard thou since I’m mostly a factual, statistical based person that loves constants. And most thing surrounding the LGBTQiAA+ community seem to be quite opposite of that. Since it seems to be constantly changing and evolving.

You have Given me great insight into a part of the community I still did not know much about. Thank you.

 

[VictorR]

Gender always has been a societal construct, and what we consider "traditional" is a mostly European version that arose during the Industrial Revolution and so is not even that old.

The spread of western ideology, often via missionaries, resulted in traditional gender and sexual roles and norms being wiped out in many places.

 

[Magna]

Gender always has been a societal construct, and what we consider "traditional" is a mostly European version that arose during the Industrial Revolution and so is not even that old.

The spread of western ideology, often via missionaries, resulted in traditional gender and sexual roles and norms being wiped out in many places.

Biological sex and gender roles have been closely linked in human societies for far longer than the Industrial Revolution. Exceptions don't negate the rule. Sometimes you hear about a tribe or race from antiquity in which men raised children or somethin similar, but anything like that...exception. Human male gender roles: Protector, hunter, soldier, father. Human female gender roles: Nurturer, gatherer, supporter, mother. Can traditional roles be taken on by the "non-traditional" gender? Yes. However, I don't buy the idea that traditional male/female gender roles were a recent construct and prior to that there were no "traditional" (ie aligned with biological sex) gender roles.

 

[kenaij]

Biological sex and gender roles have been closely linked in human societies for far longer than the Industrial Revolution. Exceptions don't negate the rule. Sometimes you hear about a tribe or race from antiquity in which men raised children or somethin similar, but anything like that...exception. Human male gender roles: Protector, hunter, soldier, father. Human female gender roles: Nurturer, gatherer, supporter, mother. Can traditional roles be taken on by the "non-traditional" gender? Yes. However, I don't buy the idea that traditional male/female gender roles were a recent construct and prior to that there were no "traditional" (ie aligned with biological sex) gender roles.

I had typed many different replies to VictorR's post but ended up deleting them all. Then I saw you replied. You have explained it in a way I couldn`t. Certain roles are there because they make logical sense. Why is the male the protector? Because only the top 5% of females is stronger then almost any male with the same experience, size en weight. Why is the female the nurturer. Because she produces the milk and they tend to bond with the children more because of it. The men was the hunter because a male can go a long time without food, while a female need to eat throughout the day. Generally speaking. Recent developments in technology have helped us devy a lot of our sexual differences.
Also, it has only been since the mid 1900's we have started to seperate gender and sex.

I don`t want this post to become a place to argue about ideas around gender, sexuality or other subjects surrounding the LGBTQ+ community. I know I have stated my opinion on posts on this forum. But I created this one to be informed about terms and ideas so I can understand them better.

I want to get information so I can understand someone's viewpoint. I don`t need 'facts' to prove why one viewpoint is right and my viewpoint is wrong. That is not why I created this post.

 

[vergil96]

To me, you can`t because the two don`t mix.

Why don't they mix? Let's compare that to sex of the rest of the body. Some people are intersex, the same can happen in the brain/mind. People on the intersex spectrum can have a mix of sexual characteristics. For example someone can have testes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrome - then their body produces also a lot of estrogen and this person naturally develops vagina and breasts. Or partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. Then they can have intersex genitalia, a low voice, androgynous facial features and breasts, hips and a narrow waist. It can mix in many different ways. Whatever makes mental gender, can also mix. The most common degree of androgen insensitivity is when someone has male genitalia, but their masculinization is not full, e.g. they don't develop a deep voice and male musculature, as much body and facial hair as most men do + they have a degree of feminization: gynecomastia, broader hips, smaller waist, more feminine facial features.

Sexual orientation also mixes. There aren't only straight and gay people. There are bisexual people. And asexual people. And all possible shades of that.

 

[Misery]

Just a quick disclaimer here: we can try to help you understand various concepts, but keep in mind that how this all works for any given individual is unique to them. People often like to say things like "well here's how this works for everyone" but as with autism, that is not true.

I'm just saying, keep that in mind when dealing with someone directly. What concepts you hear on here could differ for them. Why? Only they can know. And the only way to find out is to ask directly.

I'm just saying that because the internet REALLY loves to do the "this is exactly how it always works" thing. Usually loudly.

Why don't they mix? Let's compare that to sex of the rest of the body. Some people are intersex, the same can happen in the brain/mind. People on the intersex spectrum can have a mix of sexual characteristics. For example someone can have testes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrom - then their body produces also a lot of estrogen and this person naturally develops vagina and breasts. Or partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. Then they can have intersex genitalia, a low voice, androgynous facial features and breasts, hips and a narrow waist. It can mix in many different ways. Whatever makes mental gender, can also mix. The most common degree of androgen insensitivity is when someone has male genitalia, but their masculinization is not full, e.g. they don't develop a deep voice and male musculature, as much body and facial hair as most men do + they have a degree of feminization: gynecomastia, broader hips, smaller waist, more feminine facial features.

Aye, this is a very good point. How even biological elements can be on a spectrum. I dont mean just with intersex people either.

For instance, in my case I was born male (I am not intersex), but I wasnt even at all masculine to begin with. And I mean to the point where it is very noticable (face and body shape). Even before I realized the whole thing, I was often referred to as she/her and such, just by random people at random times. So even physically, I have been on the feminine side from the start. Without me making any changes or even using makeup.

While of course someone else, also born male, may naturally be extremely masculine, with all the inherent physical traits that go with that.



I apologize if my phrasing is somehow confusing with this post, my keyboard went berserk earlier today and I am now stuck using the awful backup one. Typing is slow and painful and I cannot quite focus.

 

[Rodafina]

I don`t want this post to become a place to argue about ideas around gender, sexuality or other subjects surrounding the LGBTQ+ community. I know I have stated my opinion on posts on this forum. But I created this one to be informed about terms and ideas so I can understand them better.

I think there is great value in this approach. Those of us who are not part of the LGBT+ group will benefit from listening.

 

[kenaij]

Why don't they mix? Let's compare that to sex of the rest of the body. Some people are intersex, the same can happen in the brain/mind. People on the intersex spectrum can have a mix of sexual characteristics. For example someone can have testes and complete androgen insensitivity syndrom - then their body produces also a lot of estrogen and this person naturally develops vagina and breasts. Or partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. Then they can have intersex genitalia, a low voice, androgynous facial features and breasts, hips and a narrow waist. It can mix in many different ways. Whatever makes mental gender, can also mix. The most common degree of androgen insensitivity is when someone has male genitalia, but their masculinization is not full, e.g. they don't develop a deep voice and male musculature, as much body and facial hair as most men do + they have a degree of feminization: gynecomastia, broader hips, smaller waist, more feminine facial features.

Sexual orientation also mixes. There aren't only straight and gay people. There are bisexual people. And asexual people. And all possible shades of that.

I indeed did not consider intersex when thinking about the mix of transgender and non-binary. because the video I saw stated the person was born female so I assumed xx chromosomes.
considering intersex it makes more sense

 

[vergil96]

For instance, in my case I was born male (I am not intersex), but I wasnt even at all masculine to begin with. And I mean to the point where it is very noticable (face and body shape). Even before I realized the whole thing, I was often referred to as she/her and such, just by random people at random times. So even physically, I have been on the feminine side from the start. Without me making any changes or even using makeup.

Same but opposite way round.

Just a quick disclaimer here: we can try to help you understand various concepts, but keep in mind that how this all works for any given individual is unique to them. People often like to say things like "well here's how this works for everyone" but as with autism, that is not true.

I agree completely. Literally everyone is a bit different in how gender works for them.

I indeed did not consider intersex when thinking about the mix of transgender and non-binary. because the video I saw stated the person was born female so I assumed xx chromosomes.
considering intersex it makes more sense

People often refer to intersex as chromosomes, but it's a minority of intersex people who have different sex chromosomes than the sex they were assigned at birth. There are other elements of sex such as hormones and the development of different sexual characteristics (primary - genitalia, secondary - breasts, facial hair etc.)

Also non-binary gender isn't the same as being intersex, two different things. I'm sorry if I'm overexplaining, but I'm just trying to be clear. Intersex is the whole body, non-binary gender is the brain/mind. Someone can feel / identify as non-binary and have an average female or male body at the same time. Nor do they have to want to have an intersex body specifically, because there is a lot more to consider about medical transition than where the body would be on the gender scale. Just like with all other medical treatments through medication and surgery, there are a lot of different factors why someone might get treated with medication X and not Y and completely skip surgery Z, for example. The intersex spectrum is just a comparison, analogy.

 

[MNAus]

I'm just saying, keep that in mind when dealing with someone directly. What concepts you hear on here could differ for them. Why? Only they can know. And the only way to find out is to ask directly.

I agree completely. Literally everyone is a bit different in how gender works for them.

That's a great point, but it raises a thought. I was young at a time when there wasn't this abundance of terms, but I do place importance on understanding the world as it develops alongside me. I'm curious as to why there is such complexity and fragmentation in this area. If, as you appear to be hinting at here, categories are pretty much entirely unuseful, as everyone essentially exists in a category of one, why are they so embraced for gender. Categories and labels for categories exist entirely to identify and group according to commonalities, yet the idea of generalisation feels highly inappropriate and appears to be strongly rejected by many.

If I'm honest, I wonder if the point is that I'm not MEANT to understand and that the complexity is intentional. That it is meant to be exclusionary. Perhaps that the complexity and terminology are serving another purpose than acting as categories. And if so I have zero problem with that and can fully respect that would be a desire for many people that don't feeling included in society. But I would hope this is a transitory period, I guess.

So I guess my question would be to any friends here who use this terminology to describe themselves: what do you feel are the benefits from doing so?