Transgender non-binary (actual question)

[Bolletje]

It could just be that people doesn't know what it means. I have no idea myself and I have given up trying to understand it. I don't think it's right to assume that everyone understands everything and knows what it is.

No, and I’m not assuming everyone knows what transfeminine is. But earlier on in this conversation, @Princess Viola explicitly states that her gender identity is feminine, not male, and Streetwise responded to this post at well. So to then ask if Viola is a boy or a man, to me, feels deliberate at that point.

Not understanding something is fine. And if you’ve given up trying to understand something, that’s also fine. But if you’re not trying to learn and gain understanding, why engage in these conversations? What do you hope to gain from that? You see someone not understanding, I see unprovoked hostility.

 

[Bolletje]

I mean if nothing else the fact that I use my chosen name as part of my username online should be enough for people to tell I'm a woman lol.

Can't imagine a lot of guys would be calling themselves 'Viola'.

Yeah! Your user profile stating your gender as Female is also a good clue.

 

[Bolletje]

But as usual people get incredibly defensive and upset about this and fly off the handle if someone says one little thing they don't like. One little word they wrong and it's full on war.

You feel like people fly off the handle if someone says one little thing they don’t like. Does that not make you curious? I feel, from other conversations, that you have an inquisitive nature.

If people fly off the handle over what you perceive as very little things, does that not make you curious as to why? That maybe what you perceive as a little insignificant word is something hugely relevant to others?

And taking it one step further: if the things people get upset about are such little things, in your eyes, how hard is it then to make adjustments there?

There’s the unwritten (archaic) rule that you should never ask a woman her age. How hard is it to not ask someone their gender/sex?

 

[Princess Viola]

I mean if someone can't understand why a trans person would be mad or upset at being misgendered like...that's on them at that point because it's really not hard to understand why we get mad and upset at having our identities invalidated by others.

 

[Athyrium]

I'm not trans, but I am intersex and have to deal with similar issues. Getting these things wrong isn't "just one little thing", you are denying a person their identity, but more importantly, their humanity. Misgendering can quickly lead to "it" and other dehumanizing language. Especially if you become defensive of what you viewed them as, rather than an "oops, sorry!" and moving on.

 

[kenaij]

Thank you everyone to taking a chill in this conversation. There might be some hickups on this post here and there but I generally feel everyone is very respective of the subject I asked a question about.

When seeking information I always try to view it from a lot of angles. Sadly the two most extreme viewpoints are represented the most. And I feel in this post I have learned a lot from the people in the middle of this subject. And there lies the most value to me.

So, eventhou my question is answered. Als long as we can keep respectful to one another. For one this means not purposefully misgendering someone. I am very curious what else this post can bring me and hopefully others that are willing to learn.

 

[Rodafina]

As a thread that was specifically started to understand some transgender issues and possibly use that understanding to help high school children, I want to note the value of sometimes listening and not questioning. Questions are important curiosity is important, but it all starts with listening and respecting people’s lived experiences in the world.

If we listen with cynicism, doubt, and judgment, then we are not listening at all. It is time for people who are not in the LGBTQ+ community to simply listen, hear, and try to understand.

We are all human here first and foremost. We are on this planet together, none better than the other. Just different.

 

[Misery]

And taking it one step further: if the things people get upset about are such little things, in your eyes, how hard is it then to make adjustments there?

This is the big question that never gets anything resembling a real answer.

I always find this whole thing baffling. To me, it truly is a tiny effort to make this type of adjustment. I mean good grief, picking up a jug of milk is harder than this. Yet many not only wont do that, they'll scream and cry about it (often using words like "snowflake" during their resulting complaints) and often saying quite hypocritical things. I doubt I have to give examples. I see it in YouTube comments a lot in particular for some reason.

And of course, they'll never provide a true answer to that question. Only deflections and blame flinging. Often including complaints about everyone ELSE freaking out easily and such. Which of course doesn't exactly help those who are in a particularly dire depressing state.

And it seems ridiculous to me. Not only is it very, very easy to make those adjustments, it's also polite and friendly, and respectful. I was raised to be those three things. So OF COURSE I will do that very easy thing for anyone.

Now granted, there are... problematic individuals who will take such slights against them (sometimes going so far as to specifically provoke someone to get that slight to appear) and use it as a siren call to further their own agenda (and by that I mean bringing their social media presence into the spotlight). As I've mentioned earlier in the thread. And of course some people are also just too easily offended in general, freaking out even over genuine accidents, and stuff like that. And that REALLY doesn't help. But that's another story, isn't it? I could rant for pages about that alone... but I'll refrain for now.

. Misgendering can quickly lead to "it" and other dehumanizing language.

You know, this is one of the elements of the topic of gender identity that particularly fascinates me. There are some people who really, genuinely prefer to be referred to with "it" instead of the usual pronouns. It is not common, but it's something I've seen more than once. I find it quite baffling.

But, of course, the important part is knowing that I don't NEED to understand it... I merely need to RESPECT it if I find myself interacting with someone who prefers that. And perhaps, in doing so, I could gain more understanding.

Thank you everyone to taking a chill in this conversation. There might be some hickups on this post here and there but I generally feel everyone is very respective of the subject I asked a question about.

When seeking information I always try to view it from a lot of angles. Sadly the two most extreme viewpoints are represented the most. And I feel in this post I have learned a lot from the people in the middle of this subject. And there lies the most value to me.

So, eventhou my question is answered. Als long as we can keep respectful to one another. For one this means not purposefully misgendering someone. I am very curious what else this post can bring me and hopefully others that are willing to learn.

I must commend you, sir, for taking such an approach as you do.

You are right, the most "extreme" is what you often see. Well... on the internet, at least. The internet LOVES spectacle, after all. I don't know about everyone else but my own interactions with people outside of "major" internet areas is usually darned chill. Heck, those few people I've told about this were basically like "Yeah, I kind of figured as much" or "hey, that's cool" and then we got back to discussing The Binding of Isaac or something.

Which actually brings me to something else I wanted to say. I think some people get the impression that people who are transgender or whatever spend a ton of time JUST focusing on that topic and talking everyone's ear off or something, never shutting up about it. But that's not what I've seen from most, nor is it how I am. If you were to just interact with me on a day-to-day basis, you'd find that it's very, very rare I bring the topic up. Usually only doing so if someone has a question about it for me. I'd MUCH rather discuss any other bloody thing. From what I've seen of many other transgender people, they are often the same in that regard.

Just wanted to add that.

Anyway though, yeah, I thank you for your measured approach that genuinely seeks to increase understanding. I do hope we've been able to provide you with what you were after here.

Also I want to say, if you or anyone should have any direct questions for me, feel free to send me a message or something. I'm always up for a chat.

 

[Ella Spell]

Here's a helpful explanation about gender / sex, written by a biologist.

It's from Twitter.




Quote:

Friendly neighborhood biologist here. I see a lot of people are talking about biological sexes and gender right now. Lots of folks make biological sex seem really simple. Well, since it’s so simple, let’s find the biological roots, shall we? Let’s talk about sex...

If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well...

Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?

Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?

A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromsomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer...

Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”?? “Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And...

...if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this...

Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.

What does this all mean?

It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.

Try out some combinations for yourself. Notice how confusing it gets? Can you point to what the absolute cause of biological sex is? Is it fair to judge people by it?

Of course you could try appealing to the numbers. “Most people are either male or female” you say. Except that as a biologist professor I will tell you...

The reason I don’t have my students look at their own chromosome in class is because people could learn that their chromosomal sex doesn’t match their physical sex, and learning that in the middle of a 10-point assignment is JUST NOT THE TIME.

Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?

Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: Biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be.

 

[Princess Viola]

^
Stuff like this is why I always laugh when people try to say things like 'there's only two sexes, it's just basic biology' yeah wait till you learn about advanced biology.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Ella Spell
The biological information is interesting, but I've never found it relevant to this area (with one exception).

My logic is that neither unusual chromosomes nor other exceptional natal conditions are necessary or useful for classification into the LGBTQ+ spectrum (obviously excluding those like "Intersex" that directly specify biology as the primary criterion).

i.e. if someone wants to change themselves, it doesn't matter where they start.

There is an uncomfortable truth for a subset of LGBT+ in the scientific facts, but IMO it's out of scope for this thread.

FWIW I have trust issues with any source that doesn't provide estimates for the frequency of the variations they talk about. It seems to be less than 1 in 1000 for all variations, which is far too low to be used to make generalizations about an entire population.
It would be interesting to see data on correlations between that 1 in 1000 and people who self-classify into LGBTQ+, or any part of it. I haven't looked for it though - it doesn't seem useful.

 

[tazz]

It's relevant because it shows that biology can't be used (as it often is) to justify someone's subjective values. You can't be anti-trans on the basis of biology. You can't be anti-gay on the basis of biology. The "biological facts" as we used to understand them have been used to classify people and cause immense suffering. Understanding that biology is more nuanced and complex helps us to fight the ignorance that supports prejudice.

I don't recall anyone (I mean in the LGBT+ community) trying to claim that if we explore the biology in more detail we'll be able to figure out how to classify someone. It's more the opposite - that we should explore the biology in more detail to make it clear that there isn't a simple biological classification system.

Then whatever trans journey an individual is on, they require healthcare and legal systems that respect their individuality, and a society that does the same.

 

[Hypnalis]

@tazz

It's irrelevant because the opposite is also true: you can't be pro-trans or pro-gay on the basis of biology either.

The biology turns up in some cases of course, but nowhere that supports or refutes pro- or anti- positions.
This includes most of the comments in the body of your post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
What I personally see today is something that's "in play", and slowly "moving the window".
It will settle down in time. Meanwhile, I wish the discourse was more reasonable on both sides, and based more nearly on facts.

 

[tazz]

@Hypnalis I should say I sat and looked at my comment before hitting "post" and couldn't decide if I was agreeing or disagreeing with you.

I think I agree that there's nothing in the biology (keep in mind I'm a total amateur but I mean nothing I've heard more knowledgable people say) that justifies a pro- or anti- stance. But the fact that the biology doesn't support either is exactly what makes it relevant.

I don't hear people in the LGBT+ community trying to use biology to justify a pro-whatever stance. But I hear lots of people outside of that community doing so.

I wish the discourse was more reasonable on both sides, and based more nearly on facts

Indeed.

 

[kenaij]

I must commend you, sir, for taking such an approach as you do.

You are right, the most "extreme" is what you often see. Well... on the internet, at least. The internet LOVES spectacle, after all. I don't know about everyone else but my own interactions with people outside of "major" internet areas is usually darned chill. Heck, those few people I've told about this were basically like "Yeah, I kind of figured as much" or "hey, that's cool" and then we got back to discussing The Binding of Isaac or something.

Which actually brings me to something else I wanted to say. I think some people get the impression that people who are transgender or whatever spend a ton of time JUST focusing on that topic and talking everyone's ear off or something, never shutting up about it. But that's not what I've seen from most, nor is it how I am. If you were to just interact with me on a day-to-day basis, you'd find that it's very, very rare I bring the topic up. Usually only doing so if someone has a question about it for me. I'd MUCH rather discuss any other bloody thing. From what I've seen of many other transgender people, they are often the same in that regard.

Just wanted to add that.

Anyway though, yeah, I thank you for your measured approach that genuinely seeks to increase understanding. I do hope we've been able to provide you with what you were after here.

Also I want to say, if you or anyone should have any direct questions for me, feel free to send me a message or something. I'm always up for a chat.

Thank you. I normally am a person to question things because like I said before. I like facts, constants and statistics. Inherently this subject is opposite how my general being is that it confuses me completely.
Yet, lately I have figured it is better to listen. Try and understand where people are coming from.
There are still thing going on that have to do with the LGBTQ+ community that I don`t agree with, and I`m pretty sure I never will. Basic examples like sports and such fall into this catagory.
In general I always try to be open minded about things. I have done so towards religion. Not believing all things christians believe, but I am able to defend their standpoints when someone on the extreme anti-religion side steps in and tries to counter it with 'logic' and science. Even if I don`t believe in the standpoints myself.
I came to the realisation I wasn`t able to do so on this subject. So I wanted to learn from people who do not shout about it. But who can talk normally about it.

I think this place is so good to exchange ideas and experiences because we all seem to have a common thing that very much resembles this situation. Our autism. We are a sort of minority in that regard. Where we do not fit the rules of the most common human brains. Most of us do not expect the world to change to fit autistic brains in favor of NT brains. Since there are far fewer of us. But at the same time we do appreciate if NT people try and understand our brains. Why we react to certain things in certain ways. And for them to awknowledge our differences, respect them. And where possible, keep them in mind in our interactions with one another.

 

[Jonn]

I know there are some members who are quite knowledgeable about the deeper meaning within the LGBTQ+ community.

I'm not one of them, lol, but I do try to progressively understand the gender question.

Non-Binary: A person does not identify as either a men or a women. But rather something in between?

I think some people talk in terms of gender identity being a man-made construct.
Or is it only BINARY gender identity that is a man-made construct?

My understanding is that non-binary individuals do not identify with the off-the-rack predefined male or female role.
Assuming this to be true, then I too am non-binary because, while I am a heterosexual biological male, I refuse to adopt a masculine STEREOTYPE.

For me, it is important to point out there is a difference between gender identity and sexual orientation.

 

[kenaij]

I'm not one of them, lol, but I do try to progressively understand the gender question.


I think some people talk in terms of gender identity being a man-made construct.
Or is it only BINARY gender identity that is a man-made construct?

My understanding is that non-binary individuals do not identify with the off-the-rack predefined male or female role.
Assuming this to be true, then I too am non-binary because, while I am a heterosexual biological male, I refuse to adopt a masculine STEREOTYPE.

For me, it is important to point out there is a difference between gender identity and sexual orientation.

In regards to the masculine stereotype. I don`t consider myself to be representing that. For for me. I`m very much a man. Because to me, gender and sex do not have to be seperated. And I see gender as a grammatical counterpart to sex. I consider myself a man or male because I can create a child with a person that is considered a female.
Because of this I personally think there are 2 sexes, en therefor 2 genders. And then there are exceptions to the rule. (for example intersex)
But that is my personal believe, and I won`t gospel it is truth. Because when it comes to the context of gender truth is very much subjective and not objective.

This means I will respect other people's believes when interacting with them. Even if I FEEL different.

Also I think feelings around gender in a grammatical sense could also be hugely related towards ones language. In my language (Dutch) we don`t use different words for feminen or masculine words. Both feminen and masculine words get the word DE in front of them. And words that are neither feminen or masculine get the word HET. Unless you look a word up in the dictionary there is no way of knowing whether a word is feminen or masculine. There is also no logical difference between DE and HET words. Since a chair is DE and a house is HET.
Other languages like French place much more emphasis on gender in their words with the use of LE and LA. So you alsways know which one it is.

 

[Jonn]

Because to me, gender and sex do not have to be seperated. And I see gender as a grammatical counterpart to sex.

When you use the word "sex", is the context sexuality?

Consider this:
When you were a 5 year old child, did you have a sexual identity when you didn't understand what sexuality was?
I doubt it.
But you did identify as a boy, did you not?

 

[Sablerose]

I just want to say thank you to Kenaij for starting this thread, I am grateful to be able to learn like this here, it has generated so much information and is making things easier for me to understand.

 

[kenaij]

When you use the word "sex", is the context sexuality?

Consider this:
When you were a 5 year old child, did you have a sexual identity when you didn't understand what sexuality was?
I doubt it.
But you did identify as a boy, did you not?

Don't know for sure what you are asking. When I talk about sex I mean being the male or female version of a human being.
So let me rephrase this. To me Male and Man are the same thing. They are just different words to describe the same thing in language. But that is mostly because of how it is used in my native language.
We do not neccesarily have 2 seperate words for male and man. Both are the word man. The only thing that is sometimes said is: "Hij is van het mannelijke geslacht" Translation: He is of the manly sex. A very direct translation.

We also don`t really use the word gender. We have only started using that word since het ideas from the LGBTQ+ community have been in the news and because of english information on the internet.

So that might explain why I don`t feel a difference between the word male and man. And that to me they are both different words for the same thing.


Ones sex or their sexuality or two very different things. That is also a big reason why I am to this day surprised LGB is paired with TQ+ into one subgroup of people. But there must be a good reason that I do not understand because otherwise people would not have thought to pair them together.