Transgender non-binary (actual question)

[Misery]

That's a great point, but it raises a thought. I was young at a time when there wasn't this abundance of terms, but I do place importance on understanding the world as it develops alongside me. I'm curious as to why there is such complexity and fragmentation in this area. If, as you appear to be hinting at here, categories are pretty much entirely unuseful, as everyone essentially exists in a category of one, why are they so embraced for gender. Categories and labels for categories exist entirely to identify and group according to commonalities, yet the idea of generalisation feels highly inappropriate and appears to be strongly rejected by many.

If I'm honest, I wonder if the point is that I'm not MEANT to understand and that the complexity is intentional. That it is meant to be exclusionary. Perhaps that the complexity and terminology are serving another purpose than acting as categories. And if so I have zero problem with that and can fully respect that would be a desire for many people that don't feeling included in society. But I would hope this is a transitory period, I guess.

So I guess my question would be to any friends here who use this terminology to describe themselves: what do you feel are the benefits from doing so?

Well... Hm. How to put it...

Now, again, this may not 100% apply to everyone, but this is a way I've often heard it described and how I tend to think about it as well.

Whatever gender you yourself are, consider this: When you hear someone refer to you as that gender... what do you feel? If you see yourself as the gender you were born as, then I'm going to guess that you dont really "feel" anything. It is 100% normal to you. So normal that it simply doesnt even register as any sort of feeling. You are that gender, so OF COURSE people refer to you that way, right?

But someone in any of the categories being discussed does not experience that by default. Rather, they get the negative, clashing, dysphoric feeling. It feels *wrong* on a fundamental level that is very, very hard to describe. For me personally, hearing it even once destroys any good mood I might have otherwise been in (though I absolutely recognize that it can be accidental). I dont let this show, but still, that's how it works for me. Many who experience this will do anything to get rid of this feeling if possible. They want it to feel right. They want it to feel normal. They want it to stop hurting so much. So, they seek a definition that fits instead of hurts.

However, for some, either just "male" or just "female", BOTH of them still feel wrong. Just like how, when it comes to sexuality, "gay" or "straight" might both feel wrong to someone who is, in fact, bisexual (or whatever). And so, bisexual (or whatever) is how they will refer to themselves when the subject is brought up.

So, for gender, alternate terms (aka, ones that aren't the usual two) can assist someone to hitting that point where it feels right and stops hurting so much, when the most common two terms just cannot hit that point for them.

Am I making any sense here? I'm not sure I'm phrasing any of this correctly.

 

[MNAus]

Well... Hm. How to put it...

Now, again, this may not 100% apply to everyone, but this is a way I've often heard it described and how I tend to think about it as well.

Whatever gender you yourself are, consider this: When you hear someone refer to you as that gender... what do you feel? If you see yourself as the gender you were born as, then I'm going to guess that you dont really "feel" anything. It is 100% normal to you. So normal that it simply doesnt even register as any sort of feeling. You are that gender, so OF COURSE people refer to you that way, right?

But someone in any of the categories being discussed does not experience that by default. Rather, they get the negative, clashing, dysphoric feeling. It feels *wrong* on a fundamental level that is very, very hard to describe. For me personally, hearing it even once destroys any good mood I might have otherwise been in (though I absolutely recognize that it can be accidental). I dont let this show, but still, that's how it works for me. Many who experience this will do anything to get rid of this feeling if possible. They want it to feel right. They want it to feel normal. They want it to stop hurting so much. So, they seek a definition that fits instead of hurts.

However, for some, either just "male" or just "female", BOTH of them still feel wrong. Just like how, when it comes to sexuality, "gay" or "straight" might both feel wrong to someone who is, in fact, bisexual (or whatever). And so, bisexual (or whatever) is how they will refer to themselves when the subject is brought up.

So, for gender, alternate terms (aka, ones that aren't the usual two) can assist someone to hitting that point where it feels right and stops hurting so much, when the most common two terms just cannot hit that point for them.

Am I making any sense here? I'm not sure I'm phrasing any of this correctly.

Absolutely you're making sense. Well expressed. That's a very interesting insight. I'm sorry that something so many of us don't even notice causes you pain.

Lots to think about there. It strikes me that a better answer for humanity would be to put less import on gender in general. I'm not sure putting "X" on a passport or ID card is particularly helpful as it just reinforces the 'last to be picked for the football team" feeling of not fitting, and we surely can't ever have enough categories. Better would be just to remove it as a concept. What purpose does it really serve?

I also wonder if people on the spectrum are especially vulnerable to this hurt, given the high prevalence of type S.

 

[Magna]

Lots to think about there. It strikes me that a better answer for humanity would be to put less import on gender in general. I'm not sure putting "X" on a passport or ID card is particularly helpful as it just reinforces the 'last to be picked for the football team" feeling of not fitting, and we surely can't ever have enough categories. Better would be just to remove it as a concept. What purpose does it really serve?

It's been expressed even within the confines of this thread that to presumably, many people, gender is literally as individual as each person decides what it is for themselves. That means there could end up being more or less an unlimited number of genders (in theory). As such, gender categories would at that point and in practical terms, become meaningless (ie only having meaning to the individual themselves). Therefore we may get to a point where rather than putting "less import on gender in general", we should as a society just eliminate the concept of gender completely and across the board.

 

[Aneka]

Sex is biology, gender is identity. Simple as that. And you don't get assigned a gender at birth, that is your observed sex. You can't change sex, but you can change gender. Gender is a pretty new label/ concept for people with dysmorphia. To people who do identify with their sex gender is irrelevant.

 

[Bolletje]

Not transphobic, but I do believe male bodied individuals do not belong in competitive women's sport. Many teenage girls have lost their chance at NCAA scholarships because of this. It's like, everything they've trained for was all for naught, because someone with thicker bone density, denser muscle mass, and a smaller pelvic arch came into the competition.

I can already predict the winner. Bet on that person and you'll get big money.

Regardless of whether or not I agree with you, this is very much off topic.

 

[kenaij]

Well... Hm. How to put it...

Now, again, this may not 100% apply to everyone, but this is a way I've often heard it described and how I tend to think about it as well.

Whatever gender you yourself are, consider this: When you hear someone refer to you as that gender... what do you feel? If you see yourself as the gender you were born as, then I'm going to guess that you dont really "feel" anything. It is 100% normal to you. So normal that it simply doesnt even register as any sort of feeling. You are that gender, so OF COURSE people refer to you that way, right?

But someone in any of the categories being discussed does not experience that by default. Rather, they get the negative, clashing, dysphoric feeling. It feels *wrong* on a fundamental level that is very, very hard to describe. For me personally, hearing it even once destroys any good mood I might have otherwise been in (though I absolutely recognize that it can be accidental). I dont let this show, but still, that's how it works for me. Many who experience this will do anything to get rid of this feeling if possible. They want it to feel right. They want it to feel normal. They want it to stop hurting so much. So, they seek a definition that fits instead of hurts.

However, for some, either just "male" or just "female", BOTH of them still feel wrong. Just like how, when it comes to sexuality, "gay" or "straight" might both feel wrong to someone who is, in fact, bisexual (or whatever). And so, bisexual (or whatever) is how they will refer to themselves when the subject is brought up.

So, for gender, alternate terms (aka, ones that aren't the usual two) can assist someone to hitting that point where it feels right and stops hurting so much, when the most common two terms just cannot hit that point for them.

Am I making any sense here? I'm not sure I'm phrasing any of this correctly.

Thank you for this. This piece of text does make me understand how it feels. It might be not the same at all, but still, the way it triggers might work the same. I have a huge trigger with a certain disease. If anyone mentions it my whole mood goes right out of the window. And everything I feel the next couple of hours I think I have that disease.
So again. Totally different than someone mentioning your gender. But I think the way the sadness triggers might feel very much the same.

 

[kenaij]

Absolutely you're making sense. Well expressed. That's a very interesting insight. I'm sorry that something so many of us don't even notice causes you pain.

Lots to think about there. It strikes me that a better answer for humanity would be to put less import on gender in general. I'm not sure putting "X" on a passport or ID card is particularly helpful as it just reinforces the 'last to be picked for the football team" feeling of not fitting, and we surely can't ever have enough categories. Better would be just to remove it as a concept. What purpose does it really serve?

I also wonder if people on the spectrum are especially vulnerable to this hurt, given the high prevalence of type S.

The person with the X on their passport actually fought to get it. So for that person it matters.
Besides. The M/F/X on your passport really does matter. It is not your gender it is refering to. It is your biological sex. And that matters on a passport. Because medical professionals know how to treat you when you are found and are not able to tell them your sex.

Eventhou what @Yeshuasdaughter brought up might be slightly off topic it does bring up a good point. That we hear a lot that gender and sex are different. But in places it seems beneficial to some transgender people they seem to be mixed up. Sports is a good example. I think particularly in sporst it invides individuals who exploit rights others have fought so hard for. And that is a very sad development for people who actually feel this way and just want to go through their lives normally.

 

[kenaij]

regardless of some off topic comments I really want to thank anyone who has taken the time to answer my question respectfully and just informed me of how certain subjects around this topic feel to them, or to people in general. This really has given me good insight which I can use to better help my students at work.

 

[vergil96]

I'm curious as to why there is such complexity and fragmentation in this area.

If you're referring to the multitude of labels, I can't tell you from experience. I don't feel like I personally need them. First thing, as it was posted before, there can be more nuance for someone that they feel on the opposite end of the gender spectrum than they were assigned at birth, but not 100% male or female. That it's not a 50-50 situation, but not a 100% this or that either. Another thing with using many not very common labels is that from what I've understood some people find comfort and expalantion of what they feel in labels.

If, as you appear to be hinting at here, categories are pretty much entirely unuseful, as everyone essentially exists in a category of one, why are they so embraced for gender.

I can't speak for others, but I'm not hinting at categories being completely unuseful. In my opinion they are useful. What I'm trying to hint at is being careful with assuming that every trans or nonbinary person has exactly the same experience. And that, as someone already compared and I'm going to do it again, because it's a relatable topic on this forum, it's like autism - no two people have exactly the same experience of neurodiversity or the same symptoms, although there are some common areas.

Categories and labels for categories exist entirely to identify and group according to commonalities, yet the idea of generalisation feels highly inappropriate and appears to be strongly rejected by many.

I can't relate to the experience of strongly objecting gender categories existing, so I can't explain it.

If I'm honest, I wonder if the point is that I'm not MEANT to understand and that the complexity is intentional.

I've seen this broight up about xenogenders (the extremely niche ones that might refer to things that aren't related to being male or female), that someone identified as such in order to create confusion. This person was very young.

Perhaps that the complexity and terminology are serving another purpose than acting as categories

Again, as far as I understand, there is a group of people who find comfort in labels and who find explanations for who they are in the concepts that the labels signify and have a "wow" moment and want to share it.

 

[Yeshuasdaughter]

I had a really traumatic event yesterday. I don't know why I posted that about women's sports. I was not myself. I cannot go into specifics.

I'm very sorry.

 

[kenaij]

I had a really traumatic event yesterday. I don't know why I posted that about women's sports. I was not myself. I cannot go into specifics.

I'm very sorry.

Not a problem. Don`t worry about it. I know you didn`t post it to cause any trouble.

 

[Streetwise]

Hi, someone who is trans and non-binary here.

Non-binary is not 'being inbetween male and female', it's just an umbrella term for gender identities outside the male/female binary. We might identify as a third gender, more than one gender, no gender, or even a fluctuating gender identity.

In the case of myself, I'm transfeminine non-binary. I was AMAB (assigned male at birth) but my gender identity (and how I want to present myself) is feminine. In fact, if it wouldn't confuse people, I would just say my gender is feminine. Not female but feminine.

If you want to be really confused, there are non-binary people (myself included) who will also refer to themselves by the binary gender identity that they're closest too. Like considering I'm transfeminine and all that, I literally do not care if someone calls me a woman (and I'll call myself a woman too - if people get mad at it, they can stay mad because it's my identity, not theirs) and I know some other people who are transmasculine and non-binary who don't get bothered if people call them a 'man' because their gender identity and how they present themselves to the world is masculine. (Of course, this all depends on the individual - there's plenty of non-binary people who might present feminine or masculine and yet don't want to be called a 'woman' or a 'man' regardless of how they present themselves)

Are you taking Oestrogen for the rest of your life or testosterone ?

 

[Aneka]

Talk about exploiting, we have something interesting going on here now. There is a managment class at a school that is difficult to get into, you need a certain amount of points to get into it. And you need the highest grade in other classes to get those points. But women get two points extra because they are women. It's called gender points. So guys have less chance to get in even if they get perfect grades in other classes.

This is wrong on so many levels- and in fact discriminates men. I can't blame them for using that loophole lol.

If we want true equality, only judge accomplishments.

 

[kenaij]

Talk about exploiting, we have something interesting going on here now. There is a managment class at a school that is difficult to get into, you need a certain amount of points to get into it. And you need the highest grade in other classes to get those points. But women get two points extra because they are women. It's called gender points. So guys have less chance to get in even if they get perfect grades in other classes.

And then someone figured out a solution, guys just change their gender on paper. They apply to get papers saying they identify as women and then they get the two extra points. I think the lesson to learn from this is that someone will always take advantage of loopholes.

Could you explain why women get those extra points by default? Is there a true thought behind those points or is it just to get more women into that class? Just curious.

 

[Hypnalis]

This is an example of where
"Equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity"
naturally leads.

The next 5 years are going to be interesting

 

[Streetwise]

The system is like that because men are just awful and should pay dearly for being men.

I'm kidding, it's like that because someone wants everything to be 50/50 men and women everywhere all the time in every workplace. And more men than women applied to that managment class. So then a bureaucrat said "I know what we can do, instead of just letting people apply to what they want and not be silly and try to force things to be 50/50 all the time, we give women 2 extra points for being women". And then the gender point system was born and most people were not impressed by the idea at all.

It balances out when a 6'4" man gets a swimming trophy in a WOMENS( XX) swimming competition

 

[Princess Viola]

Are you taking Oestrogen for the rest of your life or testosterone ?

Well I have not started transitioning yet but seeing as I am transfeminine, then I would be taking estrogen and antiandrogens for the rest of my life when I do start to transition (along with other hormones used as part of feminizing hormone therapy).

 

[tazz]

Front runner for sanest conversation about gender on the internet.

 

[tazz]

Most people assume I'm straight. It never needs to be said, apparently, it just gets assumed. I've hardly ever corrected anyone because i) during the emergence of the AIDS epidemic when I was in my teens it became clear that identifying as anything other than straight was gonna get me into a heap of trouble; ii) the term bisexual already back then seemed to have varied meanings and I didn't feel it would be useful to use it; and iii) I resent the idea that I have to explain myself to anyone anyway.

If someone refers to me as gay it feels just as uncomfortable as when I'm described as straight. Bisexual feels a lot better but still isn't a term I would use to describe myself exactly - it's just occasionally a useful shorthand when a rough approximation is all that's needed.

So I think I get what @Misery said. When I hear terms used to describe me, it provokes a feeling. Whereas I would guess that when someone assumes you're straight and that's also how you would describe yourself, nothing seems wrong, it's just so normal it doesn't provoke any feeling at all.

But here's a thought. If someone assumed I was American, I don't think I would feel so icky. I'm British but I don't think I would care if someone got that wrong. So perhaps in my case when someone refers to me as straight or gay or bisexual it means something because a lot of people have used those terms to discriminate and hurt. Perhaps that's one reason why it matters what terms are used and precisely how they are defined.

 

[Princess Viola]

I mean if nothing else the fact that I use my chosen name as part of my username online should be enough for people to tell I'm a woman lol.

Can't imagine a lot of guys would be calling themselves 'Viola'.