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What are the symptoms of neurotypical syndrome?

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This whole thread is testimony to the fact that Aspergers are inured to seeing themselves as flawed, in the wrong, disabled, disordered, in need of reform and intervention, while NTs are very much inured to seeing themselves as whole and correct and beyond reproach.

People have a field-day analysing and dissecting how Asperger's differs from 'the mainstream', but when the tables are turned and neurotypicality is put under the microscope and objectified as a way of being, there is outrage and hurt feelings. People are "uncomfortable" and feel "bullied"; it has to be framed as a "satirical" exercise; moral tenets get invoked about turning the other cheek. No problem when the spotlight was on ASC.

Neurotypicality IS a syndrome - as much as Asperger's is. But I thought we'd moved away from pathologising it and we now refer to it as ASC - autistic spectrum condition. Further definitional clarifications: Asperger's = social and political deficits. Classic autism = social and political deficits + cognitive deficits and maybe also linguistic deficits.

This thread shows how little <being problematised, questioned, scrutinised and dissected> is part of the NT condition, whereas it's a taken-for-granted aspect of the Asperger condition. Aspergers have their shadow-side rubbed in their face on a daily basis and, these days, from birth. Some Aspergers even tell people preemptively "I have [sic] Aspergers" - to preempt any negative judgements that are about to ensue, a rationale for any offending words or behaviour, a pre-justification of the other person's negative judgement.

One of the most profound insights I read on this forum was by Suzanne: "The NUMEROUS times I have been insulted and yet, for some bizarre reason, I am supposed to let it go; but those who I insult can really attack." How do you handle humiliations?
There definitely seems to be one set of rules for Aspergers and another set for NTs. This leads me to identify another facet of the NT condition:

22. Irate and indignant at the slightest suggestion that anything in their values might be questioned, their practices found wanting, their chosen pastimes problematised. Objectifying themselves and extrapolating patterns in their behaviour is not only anathema, it's unfathomable. Anyone who turns the spotlight on NTs and tries to figure out what makes NTs tick is a BAD person, a pariah, a heretic. Aspergers are so clearly the problem, the worthy targets of pathologisation. Obviously. Duh.

Would there be accusations of "stereotyping" and "bullying" if the positive aspects of neurotypicality were written about?
e.g., can often hold the bigger picture in mind instead of getting bogged down by details; often reach out to others, bring them in and make them feel part of the group; can use their social skills to give talks, lecture, teach, promote things, sell ideas etc; often generous to charities and good causes; often feel empathy for tragic cases; a penchant for holding functions of celebration, gratitude and remembrance; their many devices for enabling others to save face and come away with their egos protected.
= With all the personal variation within each of these broad trends, from decent, upstanding and kind on the one end of the NT moral spectrum, to mean, bullying and psychopathic on the other - no less than for Aspergers.

If I were president for a day, each paragraph written about Aspergers would be counterbalanced by a paragraph written about NTs, so that we cease to see neurotypicality as a blameless backdrop against which Aspergers are the quirky anomaly. Aspergers would just be one of the differences, like male and female and everything in between, and black and white and everything in between. Where Aspergers' particular skills and abilities are acknowledged and recognised, we would have a corresponding paragraph celebrating the skills and abilities of NTs. Where Aspergers are faulted, problematised and criticised, we would have a corresponding paragraph faulting, problematising and criticising NTs.

With this regime, there wouldn't necessarily be a reduction of societal suffering and human misery, but we wouldn't be projecting so much onto others and blaming others for what is in fact a part of our own psyche. Below is an extreme case of when projecting onto others is left unchecked:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5740145/Couple-guilty-torturing-murdering-nanny.html

It’s preposterous to collectively speak of NTS as one group of humans. We are a planet of over 7 billion, and are vastly different according to geography, culture, religion, and so much more. Even ideas about autism, disability, mental illness, etc widely vary. I highly doubt “all” people you classify as “NT “ would accurately be NT. What is NT? We are all varying shades and combinations of neuro diversity. All 7 plus billion of us. So my problem is the same as if you were discussing “all white people” or “all black people,” or “all Muslims,” or “all Jews,” etc. It starts to sound culturally racist. It’s morally and scientifically incomprehensible to discuss millions of people as all one type. It’s incomprensible to discuss all people with a physical disability as the same, as it is to discuss all people with broken legs. Even all alcoholics or drug addicts are not the same! All criminals are not the same.

I hope this rant was not directed against me. I just feel that no one should be stereotyped, bullied, or criticized. NO ONE. I also do not like any kind of “Them” vs. “Us.” It serves no positive goals or outcomes. I am a part of both worlds and now feeling like I am being bullied/ stigmatized for being both aspie and NT...whatever the hell that means- and honestly, I don’t care what label it is, but I DO care if I am stereotyped, or categorized by either “side.” I am sure that is no one’s intentions here to bully or make fun of others. We all come from diverse background, abilities, and disabilities. There is no cookie cutter stamped aspie type clone.

Also, not every NT has ever bullied or harmed every person here. Believe me when I tell you that NT people get bullied, and have all sorts of difficulties growing up too. Terrible difficulties. You are not alone in this. Even NTs commit suicide, are lonely, have addictions, mental illness, divorces, and have challenging lives.
 
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*It’s preposterous to collectively speak of NTs (any population) as one group of humans.*

That's the point of the thread, I believe.

To hold that idea up to the light, in a satirical way,
and by taking the opposite stance, make light of
it, because there are so many people who are tired
of the multitude of articles describing what is called
ASD in an entirely negative way.
 
It’s preposterous to collectively speak of NTS as one group of humans. We are a planet of over 7 billion, and are vastly different according to geography, culture, religion, and so much more. Even ideas about autism, disability, mental illness, etc widely vary. I highly doubt “all” people you classify as “NT “ would accurately be NT. What is NT? We are all varying shades and combinations of neuro diversity. All 7 plus billion of us. So my problem is the same as if you were discussing “all white people” or “all black people,” or “all Muslims,” or “all Americans,” etc. It starts to sound culturally racist. It’s morally and scientifically incomprehensible to discuss millions of people as all one type.

I hope this was not directed against me. I just feel that no one should be stereotyped, bullied, or criticized. NO ONE.e? I also do not like any kind of “Them” vs. “Us.” It serves no positive goals or outcomes. I am a part of both worlds and now feeling like I am stigmatized for being both. I am sure that is no one’s intentions. We all come from diverse background, abilities, and disabilities. There is no cookie cutter stamped aspie type clone.

Also, not every NT has ever bullied or harmed every person here. Believe me when I tell you that NT people get bullied, and have all sorts of difficulties growing up too. Terrible difficulties.

The joke was more this :

We,as a subset of humanity,are often labelled ,given in inappropriate sterotypes
And generally 'defined'

The post reverses this.
Thus,it throws up a mirror to those that have labelled us in the past.
It also allows fun to be had, as we know our labels are often incorrect.
So,in a harmless way, we give some back.

Your point of view is valid. It speaks though to the wider sense.

The purpose of the joke has it's limits.
It's best to view it within those limits.

We are all aware of the wider sense of things.

The jokes uses context and meaning as to convey it's purpose.
The nature of this form of discourse is that it's meaning should only be viewed within it's own context.

When you apply it's purpose more generally you get a different result.

Ie when you make your points.

It is another traditional method to convey meaning, a subset of language,form,tradition.

Context is king.

We all are aware of the points you are making.

You could only make the original post if you had that awareness imo
 
It’s preposterous to collectively speak of NTS as one group of humans. We are a planet of over 7 billion, and are vastly different according to geography, culture, religion, and so much more. Even ideas about autism, disability, mental illness, etc widely vary. I highly doubt “all” people you classify as “NT “ would accurately be NT. What is NT? We are all varying shades and combinations of neuro diversity. All 7 plus billion of us. So my problem is the same as if you were discussing “all white people” or “all black people,” or “all Muslims,” or “all Jews,” etc. It starts to sound culturally racist. It’s morally and scientifically incomprehensible to discuss millions of people as all one type. It’s incomprensible to discuss all people with a physical disability as the same, as it is to discuss all people with broken legs. Even all alcoholics or drug addicts are not the same! All criminals are not the same.

I hope this rant was not directed against me. I just feel that no one should be stereotyped, bullied, or criticized. NO ONE. I also do not like any kind of “Them” vs. “Us.” It serves no positive goals or outcomes. I am a part of both worlds and now feeling like I am being bullied/ stigmatized for being both aspie and NT...whatever the hell that means- and honestly, I don’t care what label it is, but I DO care if I am stereotyped, or categorized by either “side.” I am sure that is no one’s intentions here to bully or make fun of others. We all come from diverse background, abilities, and disabilities. There is no cookie cutter stamped aspie type clone.

Also, not every NT has ever bullied or harmed every person here. Believe me when I tell you that NT people get bullied, and have all sorts of difficulties growing up too. Terrible difficulties. You are not alone in this. Even NTs commit suicide, are lonely, have addictions, mental illness, divorces, and have challenging lives.

By this logic we should dispense with the labels “Asperger's”, “autistic” and “neurodiverse” and have only a morass of individual differences, with the nuances of all our genetic and socialisation influences taken into account each time we encounter someone. Why don’t we just tear up the DSM and all social and psychological categories while we’re about it – narcissist, borderline, sociopath, psychopath, drug addict, alcoholic, geek, cool normal, ADHD, bipolar, autistic, bully, victim, abuser, abused etc.

But many people derive solace from these labels, knowing there are others like them. Labelling is a double-edged sword: it enables you to belong with others who are like you and to realise that you aren’t alone, but it also separates you from others who aren’t like you.

Usually we have so many cross-cutting categories – gender, sexual orientation, social roles, work roles, religion, culture, ethnicity, SES, neurological hardwiring, mental illness, particular life experiences, physical characteristics, abilities – that it’s difficult to treat anyone we come across purely on their group identity, since they have many competing group identities.

The label “neurodiversity” only has meaning by distinguishing it from what it’s not: “neurotypicality”. “Asperger’s" and “autism” came about because their cognitions, emotions and behaviours distinguished them sufficiently from “neurotypicality” to warrant creating those social/clinical categories.

The fantastic ‘colour-blind’ democracy you have in mind, with everyone free to waft around in their individual differentness, free from any categorisation, let alone judgement, sounds great on paper – but it’s arguably unrealistic, due to historical, psychological and behavioural differences. It also suggests a fear of being judged: ‘Phew – what a relief: none of us can be held accountable for anything because we are all individuals who chose neither our genes nor our socialisation experiences.’ This is akin to a failure of courage to be. It is also anti-science, since science tries to find patterns in things e.g., what makes someone a serial killer, for example. If we know what causes it, we could potentially control and prevent or fix it. Yet you demonise such "stereotyping".

I would rather confront reality head-on: (1) different types of neurological hardwiring exist (as the wealth of literature on ASC attests), just like different cultures, ethnicities, and socio-economic classes exist; (2) use this differentness and social comparison as a mirror to see ourselves more clearly, that is, identify the shadow-sides and the positives of each way of being.

The bias in the field to date has been to focus on (1) the unquestioned normality of NTs and (2) the unquestioned problems of ASC individuals. I would like to balance out this picture by emphasising more of (3) the positives of ASC and (4) the shadow-side of NTs. To date there have been many NT researchers and therapists putting ASC under the microscope and holding up that type of neurological hardwiring for scrutiny and in-depth analysis. For example:
https://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/
I think it can be fruitful to have the reverse process as well: looking at those doing the looking, since all social categories are relative. The categorisation of people is overwhelmingly with reference to self.

Unfortunately, the physical dimension of this world requires that we use words to communicate, and words by definition divide up the world into categories, whether you like it or not. The trick is to be balanced and nuanced in our thinking about categories, rather than abandoning categories and labels altogether – which would be tantamount to abandoning language. I would rather call for a balanced approach: focusing both on the individual in the group AND the group in the individual.

To not categorise anyone might solve one problem but it would create another: it would deprive individuals of communities, like this one, with whom to belong.

This echoes the debate in the UK about whether to have a multicultural society, with a proliferation of diverse identities, or everyone united under a single British identity. I am arguing for pluralism (within reason - everyone has to at least agree on the categories); you are arguing for non-distinction or hyper-distinction - I'm not sure which.

Btw, I often refer to Aspergers and NTs alike as "they" and "them" (both as out-groups), as I strive to write objectively about both categories. Many people find this off-putting - they want to know clearly which box I'm in before they evaluate my ideas - am I friend or foe? Am I 'one of us' or 'one of them'? I would rather my views be evaluated for themselves than based on my identity. To judge ideas by WHO is saying them is a kind of 'argument from authority' and therefore fallacious.

P.S. You are emphatic about NO ONE (sic) being stereotyped, bullied or criticised, yet you describe views that go against yours a "rant". I feel criticised. Like the 7 billion individuals you talk about, my argument is multi-faceted, yet you seem to have engaged superficially with only one small part of it. I'd be interested to know which of my premises or inferences you find unfair, unreasoned, unsubstantiated or unbalanced - to warrant calling it a "rant".
 
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OMG these people with neurotypical syndrome definitely need to be cured, I hope they're researching treatments?

 
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OMG these people with neurotypical syndrome definitely need to be cured, I hope they're researching treatments?


Points well said @DuckRabbit. I argue for sensitivity for all individuals. I DO understand group think but wanted to highlight another POV. I argue for awareness that NTs also endure bullying, suffering, and pain too. There is no one aspie archetype.... and unless exhibiting the most classic signs for autism, one might hav even been mid diagnosed.
By this logic we should dispense with the labels “Asperger's”, “autistic” and “neurodiverse” and have only a morass of individual differences, with the nuances of all our genetic and socialisation influences taken into account each time we encounter someone. Why don’t we just tear up the DSM and all social and psychological categories while we’re about it – narcissist, borderline, sociopath, psychopath, drug addict, alcoholic, geek, cool normal, ADHD, bipolar, autistic, bully, victim, abuser, abused etc.

But many people derive solace from these labels, knowing there are others like them. Labelling is a double-edged sword: it enables you to belong with others who are like you and to realise that you aren’t alone, but it also separates you from others who aren’t like you.

Usually we have so many cross-cutting categories – gender, sexual orientation, social roles, work roles, religion, culture, ethnicity, SES, neurological hardwiring, mental illness, particular life experiences, physical characteristics, abilities – that it’s difficult to treat anyone we come across purely on their group identity, since they have many competing group identities.

The label “neurodiversity” only has meaning by distinguishing it from what it’s not: “neurotypicality”. “Asperger’s" and “autism” came about because their cognitions, emotions and behaviours distinguished them sufficiently from “neurotypicality” to warrant creating those social/clinical categories.

The fantastic ‘colour-blind’ democracy you have in mind, with everyone free to waft around in their individual differentness, free from any categorisation, let alone judgement, sounds great on paper – but it’s arguably unrealistic, due to historical, psychological and behavioural differences. It also suggests a fear of being judged: ‘Phew – what a relief: none of us can be held accountable for anything because we are all individuals who chose neither our genes nor our socialisation experiences.’ This is akin to a failure of courage to be. It is also anti-science, since science tries to find patterns in things e.g., what makes someone a serial killer, for example. If we know what causes it, we could potentially control and prevent or fix it. Yet you demonise such "stereotyping".

I would rather confront reality head-on: (1) different types of neurological hardwiring exist (as the wealth of literature on ASC attests), just like different cultures, ethnicities, and socio-economic classes exist; (2) use this differentness and social comparison as a mirror to see ourselves more clearly, that is, identify the shadow-sides and the positives of each way of being.

The bias in the field to date has been to focus on (1) the unquestioned normality of NTs and (2) the unquestioned problems of ASC individuals. I would like to balance out this picture by emphasising more of (3) the positives of ASC and (4) the shadow-side of NTs. To date there have been many NT researchers and therapists putting ASC under the microscope and holding up that type of neurological hardwiring for scrutiny and in-depth analysis. For example:
https://autismandempathyblog.wordpress.com/a-critique-of-the-extreme-male-brain-theory-of-autism/
I think it can be fruitful to have the reverse process as well: looking at those doing the looking, since all social categories are relative. The categorisation of people is overwhelmingly with reference to self.

Unfortunately, the physical dimension of this world requires that we use words to communicate, and words by definition divide up the world into categories, whether you like it or not. The trick is to be balanced and nuanced in our thinking about categories, rather than abandoning categories and labels altogether – which would be tantamount to abandoning language. I would rather call for a balanced approach: focusing both on the individual in the group AND the group in the individual.

To not categorise anyone might solve one problem but it would create another: it would deprive individuals of communities, like this one, with whom to belong.

This echoes the debate in the UK about whether to have a multicultural society, with a proliferation of diverse identities, or everyone united under a single British identity. I am arguing for pluralism (within reason - everyone has to at least agree on the categories); you are arguing for non-distinction or hyper-distinction - I'm not sure which.

Btw, I often refer to Aspergers and NTs alike as "they" and "them" (both as out-groups), as I strive to write objectively about both categories. Many people find this off-putting - they want to know clearly which box I'm in before they evaluate my ideas - am I friend or foe? Am I 'one of us' or 'one of them'? I would rather my views be evaluated for themselves than based on my identity. To judge ideas by WHO is saying them is a kind of 'argument from authority' and therefore fallacious.

P.S. You are emphatic about NO ONE (sic) being stereotyped, bullied or criticised, yet you describe views that go against yours a "rant". I feel criticised. Like the 7 billion individuals you talk about, my argument is multi-faceted, yet you seem to have engaged superficially with only one small part of it. I'd be interested to know which of my premises or inferences you find unfair, unreasoned, unsubstantiated or unbalanced - to warrant calling it a "rant".

Points well written @DuckRabbit. I “simplified for the sake of expediency, and allowing for all intellectual abilities to see my point. Being sarcastic, derisive, and critical of others for things they cannot help is painful and triggering, regardless of from an aspie, an NT, a disabled person, or any other issue such as race, or immigration status. It’s painful to be in the midst of bullies, just as it is painful to be in the midst of a group making racist or “female” jokes.

My own “rant” did exactly what I had hoped- to instill thoughtful discussion and awareness of aspies doing the same thing they complain of from the NT world. Of course it is unrealistic to expect people not to form groups! Of course people have a lot of passions based on traumas from their past. I merely wanted to bring to light the fact that aspies are no different in this very human trait of attacking/ making fun of others. We are not so different then the NT world when we are derisive and cruel- yet most of us endured human cruelty when growing up. We delight in getting back at some collective group as if they all had harmed us individually. We also delight in excluding anyone who is half NT and half aspie, and make them feel “less than,” or “damaged” because they are excluded from the group think. Yet the “low” vs. “high” functioning labelsare fiercely attacked, yet it’s ok to attack anything remotely NT. I am merely pointing the irony out here.

There can be false comfort in group think too, when a person finds out they were misdiagnosed their entire lives. Or they are not the race they were brought up to think they are. Or they do not fit in to sexual identities as the descriptions state. All these things, plus thousands of other complexities are part of daily human lives.p and made to exclude people from collective groups. Group “membership” can be comforting or it can be painful for those who do not fit in perfectly.

Autism is a spectrum. It is not a “you are in or you are out” sort of issue, or identity as it has some extremely loose and shadowy boundaries for more high functioning people. It is still in the infancy of diagnosis, according to the top researchers in the field. Who is being diagnosed today as aspie, might have a completely different diagnosis in 15 years from now. https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...e-up-on-a-single-diagnostic-label-for-autism/
 
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@Mary Anne I think you are missing the point that those on the spectrum have neurologial damage - yes of course the severity varies. So that are two distinct groups - those who have functional damage and those who do not - NT's.
 
Mary Anne I think you are missing the point that those on the spectrum have neurologial damage - yes of course the severity varies. So that are two distinct groups - those who have functional damage and those who do not - NT's.

I think that some people with aspergers would disagree that they are “damaged.” It’s not a black and white issue with the high end of the spectrum.
 
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I reiterate...spend any length of time on these forums, and you will see repeatedly that people do not view high functioning autism (Aspergers) as a disability, a disorder, or as damaged. They view it as being different. A difference that is just as welcomed and needed in this world as anything else. I cannot debat semantics here. Of course classic “low functioning” autism is more what you are speaking of, and that I do agree.
 
23. Many NTs have an impaired Theory of Mind in that they find the minds of ASC individuals unfathomable, or just plain 'broken'. At the same time, many confidently pronounce 'impaired Theory of Mind' as a defining feature of Asperger's. As articulated well here:
Impaired Theory of Whose Mind (ToWM)?

Yes, but I am speaking from the Aspie POV, and not the NT pov!

Also, that theory was initially written in 2001! The author Simon Baron Cohen has changed some of his thinking since then.
 
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My own “rant” did exactly what I had hoped- to instill thoughtful discussion and awareness of aspies doing the same thing they complain of from the NT world. Of course it is unrealistic to expect people not to form groups! Of course people have a lot of passions based on traumas from their past. I merely wanted to bring to light the fact that aspies are no different in this very human trait of attacking/ making fun of others. We are not so different then the NT world when we are derisive and cruel- yet most of us endured human cruelty when growing up. We delight in getting back at some collective group as if they all had harmed us individually. We also delight in excluding anyone who is half NT and half aspie, and make them feel “less than,” or “damaged” because they are excluded from the group think. Yet the “low” vs. “high” functioning labelsare fiercely attacked, yet it’s ok to attack anything remotely NT. I am merely pointing the irony out here

Look, we knew what we were doing with this thread. We didn't need it ablesplained to us.

And my understanding is that you can't be "half NT". How does that work anyway?
 
Look, we knew what we were doing with this thread. We didn't need it ablesplained to us.

And my understanding is that you can't be "half NT". How does that work anyway?

I don’t know what that vernacular means. Whatever exclusionary language you use, it does seems you do need explaining, as you ask:

Yes, there are various degrees. Its not only “one or the other,” but all in between and overlapping outside, for the higher functioning. That’s why many don’t even realize they are on the spectrum, because it’s a tiny amount. Maybe hardly observable. Undiagnosible by most clinicians. But it’s there. Maybe self discovered later in life (as opposed to being diagnosed as young child). This should be easy to understand as there are on these forums people who describe this.
 
So-called "mild" autism isn't partial neurotypicality.

My symptoms were ignored because I was a girl, not because they were only halfway there.
 
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