What are the symptoms of neurotypical syndrome?

[Ylva]

No, but you clearly speak about "mild" autism, and that's what people assume you have if you have become adept at hiding your symptoms through years of repression. It doesn't mean your nervous system is part autistic, part neurotypical. Neurotypicality is about as diverse as autism. If you can intuit hidden social meanings half the time, maybe what you have isn't autism at all.

 

[Mary Anne]

No, but you clearly speak about "mild" autism, and that's what people assume you have if you have become adept at hiding your symptoms through years of repression. It doesn't mean your nervous system is part autistic, part neurotypical. Neurotypicality is about as diverse as autism. If you can intuit hidden social meanings half the time, maybe what you have isn't autism at all.

I believe we are arguing over semantics- mere words. Very “mild” aspergers means that one has a large quantity of NT also. Thus, “half NT.” One can have functioning of both, and have a biologically natural combination.

Not all aspies types have “hidden symptoms” through “years of repression.” That sort of thinking automatically places people not as intelligent, creative survivors, (which NTs can be also) but as tortured “victims.” Also, not all HF aspies that are even diagnosed as such, currently might have accurate diagnosis. There is room for errors, for there is strong desire for people to acquire the “label” and categorization as “aspie” for a wide variety of reasons. The field of autism is still being processed. The research is still in its early stages. In the future there will be far more categories within the diagnosis.

Let’s just agree to disagree and be done with this conversation.

 

[Mary Anne]

Here is my official “status”

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 120 of 200 Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 110 of 200

Half aspie and proud.

 

[DuckRabbit]

24. The more extreme NTs (i.e., narcissists, with pronounced social skills, otherwise known as charm and charisma) will generally only do something when they can score socially. Power-seeking and social-climbing, they will not spend time or resources on someone who has no influence and they will not waste time in a place that has no buzz. They will only put energy into something if it is considered 'cool'. If there is no social cachet involved, forget it – whether a person, job, holiday destination, film or book; no slogging away in anonymity for them. One could go so far as to say that extreme NTs are allergic to unseen work – the tedious, unpalatable chores and thankless, anonymous grafting that go on behind many worthwhile endeavours. If there is no social glory to be had, they will tire of it within minutes.

In contrast, Aspergers' lack of concern with the status-ranking of their interests, their oblivion towards whether something or someone is considered cool or not, could explain why so many inventors and creative people are Aspergers, as reflected in the many lists of 'famous people with Aspergers'. I am not saying 'there are more innovators and creative people among Aspergers than among NTs' (I don't have empirical evidence to support that, I'm not sure how it would be measured, and it is conceivable that Aspergers do not have a monopoly on creativity or hard work). However, Hans Asperger contended that for success in science or art, a dash of autism is essential in order to tread an untrodden path with all one’s abilities channelled into one speciality. It has also been found that students who exhibit ‘odd’ behaviour tend to produce compelling, creative work and that the relatives of autistic people are more likely than others to hold creative jobs. Perhaps the most that can be said is that an excessive preoccupation with being or looking 'cool' impedes invention and creativity. Aspergers are less likely to grow bored with an interest that is not accruing social or financial capital. Also, due to sensory overload etc, Aspergers are able to be on their own for a lot longer, and solitude is surely more conducive to creative thinking etc than being in a group, where social norms often come into play and many different needs and desires need to be accommodated (like a committee).

NB. This is an elaboration of OP's point above "6. commonly lack the ability to focus on a particular interest without becoming distracted by other matters". I am trying to analyse the mechanisms at work. Just to be clear: Both types of people - ASC individuals and NTs - are necessary in our society (even extremes ones, as long as they are not abusive); however the low social-status of ASC individuals needs challenging (as minority groups have done throughout history).

In other words, NTs can often afford to have something as frivolous (symbolic) as social status as their currency; Aspergers cannot.

 

[Mary Anne]

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders between 0.5 and 1 percent of the general population (50 to 75% are men) is diagnosed with NPD.

Personally, I feel it’s dangerous and not useful to discuss both NT and Autistic in terms as stereotypes, extremes, or in black and white ideology. It’s unfair and it does not educate as to the full spectrum of either side. Narcissism is a very small percent of the population with mental health issues. Unfortunately, narcissist’s tend to make themselves well known- as Donald Trump, or Napoleon Bonaparte for examples. So we might assume there are loads of narcisists, but there are not. Thank goodness.

Is narcissism common? The answer may surprise you

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

@DuckRabbit

Great posts so far.

In other words, NTs can often afford to have something as frivolous (symbolic) as social status as their currency; Aspergers cannot

From our point of view -frivolous.
Symbolic maybe.
Not necessarily the objective view.

IMO as a social currency it is vital, neurotypicalist or otherwise.

You don't have social knowledge your life can be destroyed without you even knowing it.
NT can be fearful and anxious and focused on their image as they know it is so important.

My ideal is to be in a place where it doesn't matter so much,but I still have to be nice to the neighbours.
The odd person has to vouch for me or the local community will turn the other cheek while their children best me to death .
Extreme example, but if you don't have any currency, you can be toast.
As well as extra careful around those gossips that can hold your piece, tranquility in their hands.

From the early tribal days nothing much has changed IMO - in terms of getting social status and the reasons why.
(The many reasons why)

 

[DuckRabbit]

I would agree. To those on the NT spectrum, social status is not frivolous; it's a matter of life and death. This was shown in a powerful scene from 'American Psycho' when Patrick Bateman breaks out in a sweat, has a visible physiological reaction, when he finds that someone has a business card that looks classier than his. That is why 'keeping up with the Jones's' can be a life's work, one's raison d'être; there is nothing beyond it - what others think of you, that you're 'someone'. God forbid being a nobody. In extreme cases, losing face in the community or failing to impress the neighbours can compel people to commit murder and suicide. Cf. Revealed: Why millionaire Christopher Foster slaughtered his family | Daily Mail Online
Can you imagine <murdering your wife and daughter and animals> being the preferable option to <a drop in your lifestyle>?

Because they don't have the skills to play the 'social image' game, Aspergers often have other things as their currency: truthfulness, honesty, humility, generosity, selflessness, commitment, reliability, consistency, orderliness, organisation, cleanliness, decency and kindness, learning about something for its own sake, not for the social approval or money that will follow. Aspergers often wake up late to the fact that they do in fact need some friends in court.

However, as an Asperger, even if you're friendly, nice and accommodating towards other people, this still does not guarantee that you won't be toast. Asperger niceness works only if the other person is nice too. If the others are high-status and narcissistic, they will use the Aspergers' niceness against them - they will view Aspergers' willingness to cooperate as a weakness. It would be nice to think that 'being nice to others' will result in others being nice to you in return, but social life is not that straightforward. It can be a shock to Aspergers to learn that sometimes the nicer they are to others, the more others take advantage of them and abuse them. As I argue in this thread:
How do you handle humiliations?

However, the catch is that if the Asperger ISN'T nice and friendly and appeasing to other people, other people will then blame the Asperger for being unpopular and for anything bad that happens to them. The real reason for the Aspergers' unpopularity is their lack of social status, but this will be mis-attributed as 'the Asperger is not a nice person'. This protects the NT from confronting their (NTs') superficial values. Notice how NTs can be as not-nice as they like - bolshie, aggressive, unpredictable, unreliable, erratic, capricious, fickle, unprincipled, inconsistent, greedy, selfish, hypocritical, devious, deceptive, lying, backstabbing, wildly unreasonable - and it barely counts against them. In some cases it even propels them further in life e.g., being promoted. Here is an extreme case study: The shrink from hell. This proves that it's not NICENESS that people want and respect; it's hard-nosedness, which - bizarrely - in this physical world signals 'high status'.

What a Catch-22: if the Asperger isn't nice, they are definitely toast; if they are nice, they might be toast too. It all depends how spiritually conscious the other person is. If the other person has suffered some long-term hardship or a severe trouncing in life, they have more chance of being nice. But I am wary of people who are on the up and up - 'on the make' as they say; they are usually the sadistic bullies who enforce the social pecking order based on social status.

 

[Mary Anne]

I would agree. To those on the NT spectrum, social status is not frivolous; This was shown in a powerful scene from 'American Psycho' when Patrick Bateman breaks out in a sweat, has a visible physiological reaction, when he finds that someone has a business card that looks classier than his. That is why 'keeping up with the Jones's' can be a life's work, one's raison d'être; there is nothing beyond it - what others think of you, that you're 'someone'. God forbid being a nobody.

Aspergers often have other things as their currency: truthfulness, honesty, humility, generosity, selflessness, commitment, reliability, orderliness, organisation, cleanliness, decency and kindness, learning about something for its own sake, not for the social approval or money that will follow.

Notice how NTs can be as not-nice as they like - bolshie, aggressive, unpredictable, unreliable, erratic, capricious, greedy, selfish, hypocritical, devious, deceptive, lying, backstabbing, wildly unreasonable - and it barely counts against them. This proves that it's not NICENESS that people want.

Sounds like you have had some bad times that have influenced your negative feelings. I really DO understand what you are trying to say, but it’s difficult to read of such prejudice and cultural stereotyping.

There are millions of NTs with “low to middle class social status, who are not concerned about it. They are also not murderers, or have those those awful traits you mentioned. They can also be extremely truthful, honest, humble, generous, selfless, committed, reliabie, orderly, organised, clean, decent, and kind, learning about something for its own sake, not for the social approval or money that will follow. Yes, they can! You have not met any perhaps, but the world is filled with them.

Using Patrick Bateman as the icon of the NT world is extremely disturbing and quite unreasonable. The entire movie was satire! The movie takes place in a super high end law firm where there is intense competition. That environment and that sort of “dog eat dog” (American phrase) competiveness is rare. The film was a satire set in the 1980s world of incredible economic times and American competitive greed. It was also a violent horror movie. I have seen it at least 12 times, but it’s not reality for the majority of humans to worry about their stationary that much.

To call that depiction as the poster child of NTs is no realistic than calling Willy Wonka the poster child of Autism!

You cite

 

[DuckRabbit]

Continuing from my post above: The respective currencies of NTs vs Aspergers can clash so resoundingly, with Aspergers getting caught in so many 'damned if you do, damned in you don't' headlocks, that they eventually rebel against NT-dominated society and chose different arbiters of their worth: either other marginalised individuals who know what it's like to be perceived as pointless and useless, or animals. A spontaneous show of affection or appreciation from an animal can eclipse the esteem of an entire roomful of people. And I'm quite sure trees and plants are capable of these feelings too! Not to mention insects:

Rather than trying to convince the world of your value (aka bashing your head against a wall, aka trying to fit a square peg into a round hole), a more productive thing for Aspergers to do is to use each knifing of rejection, ostracism and exclusion to connect with others similarly knifed - whether due to their ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, physical appearance, disability, or neurological hardwiring. Instead of the blood of thwarted belonging flowing out of the wound, picture a more profound understanding, compassion and deeper connection flooding in.

 

[Ylva]

From the early tribal days nothing much has changed IMO - in terms of getting social status and the reasons why.
(The many reasons why)

Does anyone else wonder how we would have done it?

I know we've done this thought experiment before, but how would we actually have done it?

I.e. can we take it from current aspie/aspie relationships, friendship, etc.? Is there an autistic person somewhere who considers another autistic person his figuratively mortal enemy?

 

[DuckRabbit]

Does anyone else wonder how we would have done it?

I know we've done this thought experiment before, but how would we actually have done it?

I suspect that, due to human nature, anyone who lacked the ASC strengths of being able to work in solitude for long stretches, systematising, not being swayed by decoys etc might be sneered at, scorned or bullied for their lack of robustness! Cf.
an aspergers society
Unless Aspergers had learnt from how they were treated and they resolved to do things differently....

Would Aspergers be as open-minded as to the strengths of NTs as Aspergers presently wish 'society' would be towards the strengths of Aspergers?

 

[Ylva]

Would Aspergers be as open-minded as to the strengths of NTs as Aspergers presently wish 'society' would be towards the strengths of Aspergers?

But bullying is a "political" thing. It's done for social power. Do you really think we would have figured it out without having to? I don't mean if some cataclysmic even happened that mostly autistics survived – I think the remaining NTs would still rule in that scenario – but if we started with a blank slate, autistic children growing up in a world without allistics, what social skills would they have figured out?

We, lacking social instincts, had to develop artificial ones to survive. What would we have developed in place of them?

 

[DuckRabbit]

But bullying is a "political" thing. It's done for social power. Do you really think we would have figured it out without having to? I don't mean if some cataclysmic even happened that mostly autistics survived – I think the remaining NTs would still rule in that scenario – but if we started with a blank slate, autistic children growing up in a world without allistics, what social skills would they have figured out?

We, lacking social instincts, had to develop artificial ones to survive. What would we have developed in place of them?

Thought-provoking questions. Would we even have communities? Or just more spaced-out ones?

Do you think ASC individuals are immune to social power? You do get plenty of people on the ASC spectrum who bully. Maybe it's not so much for social power (enhanced reputation in the social group) as interpersonal control - being able to control someone or impose your perspectives on them. Do those motivations overlap?

Bullying is more associated with externalising Aspergers, as explained in 'The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome' by Tony Attwood:

Compensatory and Adjustment Strategies to being Different
The author has identified four compensatory or adjustment strategies developed by young children with Asperger’s syndrome to the realisation that they are different from other children. The strategy used will depend on the child’s personality, experiences and circumstances. Those children who tend to internalise thoughts and feelings may develop signs of self-blame and depression, or alternatively use imagination and a fantasy life to create another world in which they are more successful. Those children who tend to externalise thoughts and feelings can either become arrogant and blame others for their difficulties, or view others not as the cause but the solution to their problems. Thus some psychological reactions can be constructive while others can lead to significant psychological problems. These are the four reactions that have been observed by the author.

1. A Reactive Depression
2. Escape into Imagination
3. Denial and Arrogance
4. Imitation

For "3. Denial and Arrogance" Attwood notes:

A lack of ability in social play with peers and in interactions with adults can result in the development of behaviours to achieve dominance and control in a social context; these include the use of intimidation, and an arrogant and inflexible attitude. Other children and parents are likely to capitulate to avoid yet another confrontation. The child can become ‘intoxicated’ by such power and dominance, which may lead to conduct problems.

But he does say these behaviours are in response to "being different" so probably doesn't help in answering the question.

 

[Ylva]

Do you think ASC individuals are immune to social power?

No, we're not immune, we're still primates after all. I sometimes think what we have is more akin to dyslexia, but since social interaction is much older than reading, the effects are far more profound.

And of course I might be wrong to think it is anything like dyslexia at all,

You do get plenty of people on the ASC spectrum who bully. Maybe it's not so much for social power (enhanced reputation in the social group) as interpersonal control - being able to control someone or impose your perspectives on them. Do those motivations overlap?

Yes, I can see that. It matters what others think – but it doesn't feel like it matters. It is just one of those things that will affect your life in some way, so it feels more like the possibility of natural disasters. (They could ruin your life, but what are the odds? It is impossible for me to estimate.)

So to control a situation, you might do whatever you think you need to – maybe something you've seen others do. Maybe something you have never seen anyone do. And they know what they do, I'm not saying that when we bully we do so out of clueless innocence.

Maybe most or all interaction would be experimental in that society? At least among people who didn't know each other.

I picked strategy 2 for most of my life, so I probably missed out on a lot of social observations. I've tried all of the others too – my parents encouraged denial and imitation, and in the end depression is kind of unavoidable.

 

[Mary Anne]

I suspect that, due to human nature, anyone who lacked the ASC strengths of being able to work in solitude for long stretches, systematising, not being swayed by decoys etc might be sneered at, scorned or bullied for their lack of robustness! Cf.

I can think of many who were not- and perhaps they were autistic also: monks who sat for years in tiny cells creating religious illuminated manuscripts. Craftsmen working in solitude to create works of mastery such as embroideries, tapestries, and weaving. Goldsmiths, and chainmail armour creation. Throughout history, we truly do not know who might have been touched by Aspergers, but there were many who sat in solitude performing very detailed long term tasks with obsessive focus. The world of botany and classification of the natural world is filled with scientists with aspergers. There are so many that might not even realize, and do not wish to know.

 

[DuckRabbit]

25. NTs can react and respond to other people 'in real time', using social instincts (online processing). In contrast, Aspergers often cannot respond on the spot. They need to go off and analyse what happened and what ought to have happened. They work through events and emotions logically (offline processing). Their social comprehension after this intellectual processing can be as accurate and nuanced as that of NTs - sometimes even more profound and insightful, but the time-delay required does not work in their favour socially in that people often perceive them to be slow or thick.

 

[DuckRabbit]

What are people's view of such parody lists of 'Neurotypical Spectrum Disorder'? e.g.,

https://psychcentral.com/blog/aspie/2018/09/allism-spectrum-disorders-a-parodyhttps://realtalktherapypdx.com/neurotypical-spectrum-disorder/https://neurotypicalsyndrome.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/nt-syndrome-diagnostic-criteria/
It would be great to hear whether you find them offensive, amusing, unfair, fair, helpful, unhelpful etc.

Are there any that the Moderators delete? If so, why?

Are there any that you think are particularly valid? If so, please give the link!

 

[Sasha22]

https://neurotypicalsyndrome.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/nt-syndrome-diagnostic-criteria/

I like the third one.

"a lack of spontaneous seeking to share own interests with other people (e.g. constant use of “small talk” indicating a lack of expression to other people of anything interesting)"
"They have an abnormal sensory sensitivity to tone of voice, leading to attention deficits that render them unable to comprehend the literal meaning of words."

The other two I find a bit exaggerated, and part of the negative aspects highlighted could be said of many autistic people (or any group of people really).

 

[GrownupGirl]

I got one:

Severe annoyance and/or aggression at being corrected by aspies, not realizing we're not doing it to be rude, but because we value truth and honesty.

 

[Outdated]

I find the whole thread divisive and a little bit sad.

(B) failure to develop peer relationships with non-neurotypical people, need to bully non-neurotypical people and frequent inappropriate attempts to manipulate other people

Responding to bigotry with more bigotry is the path to a polarised society. It happens extra quick when amplified by access to social media. One of the very real problems much of our world is facing today.