What is a healthy relationship anyways?

[margotk]

Is this what is ment by modeling my behavior here or is modeling something else?

Yes, modeling but also sometimes operating on a pattern of what love should be like or feel like that we learnt in childhood. The problem starts when our pattern of love is unhealthy, like in my example. It is like a program in a computer - you are operating automatically, looking for certain things that are similar to what you consider subconciously a relationship pattern. Teraphy is often needed to reprogram these patterns. I do not know if I am explaining it in undertandable fashion, I hope so. You do or look for what you know. It becomes problematic if what you know is destructive to you. It is an extreme example but like with some adult children of an alcoholic parent. They can choose a partner similar to their parent because for them this pattern of love is known and similar, even though it is destructive and disfunctional.
What does this mean?


Is it possible that the other person doesnt possess this ability, which in the positive is emotional intelligence? Or is that different? Fighting dogs have the tail removed (and sometimes they cut back the ears too.) Sorry gross and inflamatory.
But the dogs tail is gone forever, can this happen to a man? In that this emotional whatever it is simply does not exist?

For me it is not the same as EQ.Somebody can possess emotional intelligence, understand other person's feelings but still be emotionally unavailable. Emotionally unavailable person (man or woman), often due to traumas or bad experiences, are closed off to closeness and vulnerability that is requiered in any LTR imo. They may declare they want that and think that truly but their actions say otherwise - any act of closeness can be followed with pulling away, many times out of fear and for protection against having their feelings hurt if they open up too much. Pulling away is a tool of control not to get too invested emotionally. And sometimes emotionally unavailable people just don't care about others and manipulate with push and pull behaviour. But I like to think that more often than not it is not concious way to hurt others but it stems from trauma. As you wrote - hurt people hurt people.

 

[margotk]

For me it is not the same as EQ.Somebody can possess emotional intelligence, understand other person's feelings but still be emotionally unavailable. Emotionally unavailable person (man or woman), often due to traumas or bad experiences, are closed off to closeness and vulnerability that is requiered in any LTR imo. They may declare they want that and thinkt that truly but their actions say otherwise - any act of closeness can be followed with pulling away, many times out of fear and for protection against having their feelings hurt if they open up to much. Pulling away is a tool of control not to get to invested emotionally. And sometimes emotionally unavailable people just don't care about others and manipulate with push and pull behaviour. But I like to think that more often than not it is not concious way to hurt others but it stems from trauma. As you wrote - hurt people hurt people.

I see that first part of my answer was published in the box just under your first question @Skittlebisquit. Sorry for that, I am writing on my mobile.

It was your question about modeling and my reply:
Yes, modeling but also sometimes operating on a pattern of what love should be like or feel like that we learnt in childhood. The problem starts when our pattern of love is unhealthy, like in my example. It is like a program in a computer - you are operating automatically, looking for certain things that are similar to what you consider subconciously a relationship pattern. Teraphy is often needed to reprogram these patterns. I do not know if I am explaining it in undertandable fashion, I hope so. You do or look for what you know. It becomes problematic if what you know is destructive to you. It is an extreme example but like with some adult children of an alcoholic parent. They can choose a partner similar to their parent because for them this pattern of love is known and similar, even though it is destructive and disfunctional.

 

[margotk]

Ok i know that using the word "retarded" in most instances would be met with rebuke, rightfully so. So EQ means some thing specific, and its an important concept. Is it possible that i might be considered "emotionally retarded", in the sense that i seem to lack both availability and EQ? Is like an archaic aspect of "arrested development". Is some one lacking in emotional availability considered to lack EQ?

I am no expert by any means and I would never consider this term before you brought it up. But thinking about it, I would rather say thai identifying your emotions and emotions of others can be challenging to you. It does not mean you don't want to or are running away from it out of fear (which is connected strongly with unavailability to me), because even this thread shows otherwise, that you are willing to face it and look for tools to understand it and ways that this knowledge could work for you in your every day life. Emotional intelligence is partly this - willingness to get to know, acknowledge and understand other persons's emotions. One might be not good at it first or ever for that matter, but effort in itself counts and it's huge. Many NTs I know have low EQ (going by what they say about themselves) but what is a differentianting factor is are they willing to put some effort in understanding others with the stipulation that it may never come naturally to them or they may never understand fully.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Thank you, i deleted the previous post i think there must be a better term, and that it would likely offend too many, using the "r" word,( tho it makes sense to me, in describing this). What you are saying is that i am not like a dog missing its tail, this capacity likely exists if dormant. Thats hopeful. I wonder how many of us never saw a healthy relationship in RL?
"Man-Baby" was a disparaging term i heard used often at a place i used to work. There was a style of communication there that involved the use of derrogatory remarks made in jest. **Do you think to be considered mature, a man must possess EQ?**
There is great sadness here, as well as hope. Be careful lest you dig too deep, some of the things people on the spectrum have gone through...
I have only been on this forum a brief time. Three times already i was moved to tears from other ppls stories of abuse and despair. If that sort of treatment is typical of the way that ND ppl are treated...
Perhaps ppl with autism are very unlikely to develop healthy relationships. Thats a sweeping generalization but....
What if ppl were ALWAYS mean to you, what would that do? What if no one ever listened? What if you had no friends at all, and never went outside?

 

[margotk]

Thank you

And just one more thing - being emotionally unavailable does not have to be a permanent thing. One can work through traumas and triggers in therapy or other ways that work for them and slowly open up themselves more. It is hard, but it is a journey and a choice at the end of the day.

 

[margotk]

Thank you

You are welcome and I hope I did not muddle things for you or anything. It is just my reflexion, others may have a different take on it.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I am sorry i get too intense. You explain things very well, its a joyous exchange to me. Many of these concepts are either entirely new, or else poorly understood. Thank you for your patience, and decency

 

[margotk]

I am sorry i get too intense. You explain things very well, its a joyous exchange to me. Many of these concepts are either entirely new, or else poorly understood. Thank you for your patience, and decency

You did not get too intense, not at all for me. For me it is always interesting getting to know different perspectives and perceptions. I have learned a lot here already. Thank you for that.

 

[margotk]

Thank you, i deleted the previous post i think there must be a better term, and that it would likely offend too many, using the "r" word,( tho it makes sense to me, in describing this). What you are saying is that i am not like a dog missing its tail, this capacity likely exists if dormant. Thats hopeful. I wonder how many of us never saw a healthy relationship in RL?
"Man-Baby" was a disparaging term i heard used often at a place i used to work. There was a style of communication there that involved the use of derrogatory remarks made in jest. **Do you think to be considered mature, a man must possess EQ?**
There is great sadness here, as well as hope. Be careful lest you dig too deep, some of the things people on the spectrum have gone through...
I have only been on this forum a brief time. Three times already i was moved to tears from other ppls stories of abuse and despair. If that sort of treatment is typical of the way that ND ppl are treated...
Perhaps ppl with autism are very unlikely to develop healthy relationships. Thats a sweeping generalization but....
What if ppl were ALWAYS mean to you, what would that do? What if no one ever listened? What if you had no friends at all, and never went outside?

I am sorry to hear about your experience. Abuse and bullying and excruciating loneliness is heartbreaking. I can atest though that these types of experiences are something that many NTs face as well, but the world is a much friendlier place for them/us, so it can get a bit easier to deal with maybe. But it still depends on person's personality. If people are always mean to a person, I would assume that the possibility to develop trust towards others and towards yourself is slim to none. It feels hopeless. But even here there are so many nice and supportive people. It is easier now to find support systems with online communication possible. But it is still sometimes extremely hard.
EQ is just a concept. Maturity for me is facing your circumstances and willingness to find solutions for yourself and together with your so when in relationship.
I don't want to believe that it is unlikely. Relationships with yourself and other people are a lifelong struggle as well as adventure.

 

[Wolfgangus Faldestolius]

I am sorry i get too intense. You explain things very well, its a joyous exchange to me. Many of these concepts are either entirely new, or else poorly understood. Thank you for your patience, and decency

You're one of the least intense, cool, most rational and relaxed people around here!

Most of those concepts are poorly understood by almost anyone. You are mid field if not fairly near the front.

The "emotionally unavailable" may learn to use inference to replace some other sense - like activating a new section of brain or nerve path. Also they may have been suffering absences all along and that may clear up or something may remedy it. Or they may adopt a lifestyle that cushions them from being overwhelmed so they've energy to attend in relaxed fashion. In my case all three.

But you don't know when, though. I slowly learned not to over-promise and in my mid 60s I'm not going to start trying to impress anyone soon.

Emotional squishiness is overrated. If someone shows some form of consideration for you achieving your goals in your hobby, career, housing etc and doesn't keep score as to "favours returned", I'd say they are beginning to be on the healthy side. If they are wanting to take your time away from other people and things they're not healthy.

 

[Booknerd515]

I'm not allowed to participate in the first sort of relationship you mentioned (which isn't really "real" to me either) or get a potential romantic partner online. I will say that partners acting positive to each other is something I enjoy reading about.

For normal online healthy relationships, they are when the other person is accepting of your opinions and supports them. They also send emotional support or let you rant to them. Or you are able to rant and send emotional support to them. I have very good online friends on other websites. They will ask how I'm doing if I haven't messaged them in a while at least once. I know I've had healthy online relationships because I've helped several online friends through anxiety & panic attacks or when they're more anxious and they put a deep amount of trust in me. Several have "adopted me" as a found family member because I've been such a good friend to them.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

That one needs a whole new thread

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Family of choice, child of the secret, both terms came to me from fiction

 

[WolfSpirit]

I want to leave this one open ended. I think there must be more to it all or that i need to get more out of whats already here. There is alot here in just 2 pages so far. Things i never heard of actually.
I think i understand now why the shrink and various others kept digging for background info. What types of relation ships did i recall having; i was asked by a few persons, both professionals and self helpers who really wanted to help me get better. Its because we model from experience, at least to start, so thats why the questions about my past. I always answered that i had normal relationships. If what is described above is normal then i have not seen that in relationships before, does that make me a liar?

"normal" is such a nondescript word when used in a therapeutic setting. It might even have sounded to them that you were deflecting the question, or otherwise avoiding answering the question. I'm not sure there is such a thing as 'normal' in this sense. Or at all, really. Statistically, maybe, but in any useable sense no.

Using the word doesn't make you a liar, per se, because it's presumably the best word you knew how to use. However, it may not have been an accurate response. But then, everybody is prone to occasionally saying things that are 'true' for them, but not necessarily accurate. (a whole different subject all in itself.)

Of course, asking an autistic what kind of relationships they've had, or questions about relationships in general can be kind of a trick question, given our difficulties in understanding the concepts!

 

[WolfSpirit]

I see that first part of my answer was published in the box just under your first question @Skittlebisquit. Sorry for that, I am writing on my mobile.

It was your question about modeling and my reply:
Yes, modeling but also sometimes operating on a pattern of what love should be like or feel like that we learnt in childhood. The problem starts when our pattern of love is unhealthy, like in my example. It is like a program in a computer - you are operating automatically, looking for certain things that are similar to what you consider subconciously a relationship pattern. Teraphy is often needed to reprogram these patterns. I do not know if I am explaining it in undertandable fashion, I hope so. You do or look for what you know. It becomes problematic if what you know is destructive to you. It is an extreme example but like with some adult children of an alcoholic parent. They can choose a partner similar to their parent because for them this pattern of love is known and similar, even though it is destructive and disfunctional.

@margotk, it seems you've done a lot of work and learning on this subject! That's great! (okay, now waxing incoherent, but suffice it to say YAY!) This is a great description!

 

[WolfSpirit]

I feel the need to point out (possibly again, although it might've been in another thread before) that autistics are often accused of not having feelings (although that's changing) because we don't express them in a typical NT fashion. Also we have difficulty with body language - both expressing and reading, so that NT's can often misunderstand us. Sometimes they think we're not feeling emotion, sometimes they think we're feeling stuff we aren't. and various other combinations.

My point here is that just because NTs misinterpret our emotional expression does not mean we don't have them, or cannot feel them! We might have difficulty expressing them, identifying them, and communicating about them, but that doesn't mean we don't feel them!

And not all NTs are the same in their abilities in these areas either!

... And then there's the whole thing where society teaches males and females to express emotion differently!! Males are expected to be less emotionally expressive, which can often lead to women complaining about men's lack of emotional expressivity or availability. It's seriously complicated!!! - And I'm only referencing gender in a binary fashion because society is only just beginning to realize that that's a falsehood. Therefore society has typically socialized children in a strict gender binary, and subscribed to stereotypes. .

... And the whole gender thing is also seriously complicated! Especially now that societally we're starting to acknowledge that it's more than a binary thing!

 

[Alexej]

Is it possible that the other person doesnt possess this ability, which in the positive is emotional intelligence? Or is that different?

Is this where alexithymia might come in as part of an explanation?

 

[margotk]

@margotk, it seems you've done a lot of work and learning on this subject! That's great! (okay, now waxing incoherent, but suffice it to say YAY!) This is a great description!

Thank you so much I am really interested in that and the more I learn the more things I find to learn also. Which for me is a good thing

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Is this where alexithymia might come in as part of an explanation?

There was a post about it that had a link to a survey, i didnt complete it. I think the trauma explanation may well fit me

 

[Wolfgangus Faldestolius]

I feel the need to point out (possibly again, although it might've been in another thread before) that autistics are often accused of not having feelings (although that's changing) because we don't express them in a typical NT fashion. Also we have difficulty with body language - both expressing and reading, so that NT's can often misunderstand us. Sometimes they think we're not feeling emotion, sometimes they think we're feeling stuff we aren't. and various other combinations.

My point here is that just because NTs misinterpret our emotional expression does not mean we don't have them, or cannot feel them! We might have difficulty expressing them, identifying them, and communicating about them, but that doesn't mean we don't feel them!

And not all NTs are the same in their abilities in these areas either!

...

We are very emotional and we know it, but our descriptions can lack focus. The person with the blank expression could be very emotional. (They might be having absence seizures, their minds frantically inferring what's going on.)

We lay awake at nights because Mr X had a crash or Mrs Z has a grave illness. We don't plaster our hands all over them and make horrible clacking or hissing noises.

For me the key was losing my fear of the analytical (but I am choosy, when around people, whether I shall give them some of my "workings", or just the "results" only, or keep mum anyway). Now I'm emotional AND analytical both - hooray!

Multi-tasking frees me up to experiment in taking small initiatives towards people, at times. With people I know, a little goes a long way.