I was mostly trying to explain why I think advocating that people should embrace autism and give up on trying to find a cure is going to be difficult with few people being interested in listening. It looks like I failed.
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Why is it hard to get people’s attention?
- Thread starter Greatshield17
- Start date
I was mostly trying to explain why I think advocating that people should embrace autism and give up on trying to find a cure is going to be difficult with few people being interested in listening. It looks like I failed.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
More or less yes, I didn’t deny it but I downplayed it and told almost no one about it; it was only when I actually looked at myself and considered what it truly meant to be Autistic that I was able to embrace myself and move forward.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
No, it’s frankly because Level-1 Autism and Schizophrenia are, by their very nature, different things; yes stigma does play a role in it, but again, Autism is very different from Schizophrenia; Schizophrenia is a mental illness characterized chronic psychosis, Level-1 Autism is a benign neurological disorder most recognizable by difficulties in social interactions, though I personally believe the true nature of Autism lies in the relationship between the body and the intellect & will, but that’s a whole other topic for another time.
This is one of the reasons why I don’t like the terms “Neurodiversity” and “Neurodivergence;” but instead use the term, Autism Acceptance, Autism is a very specific thing. No, I’m not saying I want every other disability and/or mental disorder to be eradicated and have Autism remaining only disability/disorder; these other disabilities and mental disorders are their own things as well, and need to be approached as they are. I do not advocate for Schizophrenia, because frankly, Schizophrenia is a harmful, destructive mental illness; I do not advocate for dyslexia, (which I might have) because as far as I can tell, (someone can correct me if I’m wrong here) no one is going out there demonizing dyslexia the same way they demonize Autism. I guess the closest thing to Autism is Down Syndrome, and yes society does treat people with Down Syndrome horribly and they do need help and advocacy, I should definitely do what I can to help them if/when I can; but still I’d treat the our own Autistic Community (especially levels 1 & 2 Autistic People) differently from the Down Syndrome community, because each of our communities are different, and we each have our own unique needs and concerns.
Okay let’s be Socratic here, what do you mean when you say, “a pill that could instantly cure Autism (meaning it removed all autistic traits/symptoms)?” what do you mean by “autistic traits/symptoms?”
I've posted about this many times in this forum. Those three things to consider relative to reaching out to NTs to tell them you're on the spectrum of autism.
1) There will be a very few who will want to understand and succeed.
2) A few more will try and fail.
3) With the remaining vast majority being indifferent, and likely defaulting to expecting- even demanding that we adapt to their way of thinking.
It's all about the numbers. And it's not personal. Reflecting a disparity between less than two percent of the population who are autistic versus the other ninety-eight percent who are neurotypical. With such disparity, it leaves us with little room to expect NTs to want to understand, let alone succeed given that in most cases they have no incentive to bother. In a society that sanctifies the rule of a majority.
It's a reality that we on the spectrum MUST understand whenever we are compelled to reach out, for better and more often-than-not for worse. Unless perhaps you approach someone who has an autistic child or relative, or has an autistic person in their social orbit. Which again, isn't mathematically likely.
1) There will be a very few who will want to understand and succeed.
2) A few more will try and fail.
3) With the remaining vast majority being indifferent, and likely defaulting to expecting- even demanding that we adapt to their way of thinking.
It's all about the numbers. And it's not personal. Reflecting a disparity between less than two percent of the population who are autistic versus the other ninety-eight percent who are neurotypical. With such disparity, it leaves us with little room to expect NTs to want to understand, let alone succeed given that in most cases they have no incentive to bother. In a society that sanctifies the rule of a majority.
It's a reality that we on the spectrum MUST understand whenever we are compelled to reach out, for better and more often-than-not for worse. Unless perhaps you approach someone who has an autistic child or relative, or has an autistic person in their social orbit. Which again, isn't mathematically likely.
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Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
You’re probably right; good thing I have Her, with Her there is always hope, provided that Autism Acceptance is acceptable, which I believe it is. That’s actually one of the reasons why my comic series is called An Appeal to Heaven, because one of the key plot points is a literal appeal to Heaven, to the Queen of Heaven that is.
By the way, do you mind if I screencap this and share it with others online?
LadyS
One eye permanently raised it seems...
I would even add the NTs who say that we are ALL on the spectrum somewhere and try to negate ones who who are. Usually ones who don't want to admit that the playing field is not level for everyone.
But agree 100%. Most people don't care about things that don't affect them directly. I've noticed different teirs of interest, awareness, and caring:
1. Those who have a close relative on the spectrum in their daily lives
2. Those who know a relative or friend on the spectrum but don't have as much contact.
3. Those who distantly know of someone (like a relative of a friend).
4. Those who don't know of anyone on the spectrum
People just can't wrap their heads around things that don't directly affect them sometimes. Unless it's some big news story where everyone must put in their two cents.
I've read there are schizophrenics who see schizophrenia as part of who they are, want to be accepted, and are opposed to a cure. I've read that some deaf people refuse an implant that can allow them to hear because they see their deafness as part of who they are.
Your view seems to be:
Autism is good, we should accept it
Schizophrenia is bad, we should cure it
My view is:
Everyone, including schizophrenics, sociopaths, and psychopaths, should be accepted and treated with compassion, dignity, and respect. Supporting research to find a cure or help people lessen their symptoms isn't opposed to acceptance.
Here's a post someone made that is similar to my experience:
I probably go from ASD 0.5 to ASD 2 depending on the day. Catch me on a 0.5 day and I come across as "quirky". Catch me on a 2 day and oh boy.....
If you don't know the scale:
ASD 3 is severe autism
ASD 2 is moderate autism
ASD 1 is mild autism
ASD 0.5 is autistic traits that aren't severe enough for a diagnosis of ASD
When I'm ASD 0.5, I'm only slightly awkward and no one believes me when I say I'm autistic. I naturally make eye contact, am able to read many facial expressions, pick up on social cues, understand how people are feeling, and have typical back and forth conversations with people who find me interesting.
When I'm ASD 2, my impairments are so obvious that people avoid me, act uncomfortable around me, ask me if I'm okay, speak to me slowly, and treat me like I'm retarded. I have difficulty making eye contact, can't read facial expressions no matter how hard I try, my face blindness is so bad I frequently get people mixed up, I'm oblivious to social cues, and am unable to have a conversation without people literally thinking I'm retarded. When I'm ASD 2 (as well as ASD 0.5), I'm not depressed, don't have anxiety, don't get frustrated, and don't experience much stress. It's pure autism without any mental health issues.
Some people accept me and treat me kindly even when I'm ASD2. I'm grateful for it but I'd much prefer a cure that results in me being ASD 0.5 or free of autism compared to acceptance while being ASD 2. (Since I prefer ASD 0.5 to ASD 1, I'm sure I'd prefer ASD 0/no autism the most).
It's easy to advocate for acceptance and oppose a cure if you're a fairly constant ASD 1 but if your autism varies as much as mine does, I guarantee you'd prefer being less autistic over being more autistic.
I mean not having any deficits that are part of the DSM-5 criteria for ASD. Being able to make eye contact, read facial expressions, social cues, and have normal conversations without any awkwardness. The closer I get to it (ASD 0.5), the more I'm able to be myself and enjoy my life. I'm probably ASD 1.5 right now. I can get by since I've learned to be content and live with it, but life is definitely better when I'm less autistic.
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As one possible explanation for people's reactions is my own. In general I avoid salespeople/zealots . I don't want to waste time with people who want to convince or convert me. They are not conversing, not really listening. They are on a mission with some purpose of their own and I just happen to be the next target. There is no way I will agree with what they want, simply because they have applied pressure or unwanted attention to get it. And just words are not enough, because people can say anything.
Productive discussions about things usually have to happen in an organic way when both parties want to talk about it.
Productive discussions about things usually have to happen in an organic way when both parties want to talk about it.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
The guy I know who is both Autistic and schizophrenic actually tried to commit suicide last summer; to put in a frank, overly simplistic sense, the way I see it:
Treat Autism like a disease, and Autistic People become suicidal; don’t treat schizophrenia like a disease, and schizophrenics become suicidal.
Yes there probably are instances where the reverse is true, but schizophrenia strikes as, by its very nature, destructive; while Autism is merely debilitating. I mean, I guess I’m open to hearing what these people have to say, if I had the time available to listen them; and I don’t think a cure is a must for schizophrenia, the world won’t end if there’s no cure, and at least we have the meds and the like deal with it, plus as a Catholic, I believe that some “cures” like gene “therapy” are intrinsically immoral. But schizophrenia is not necessarily the topic of this conversation, let’s move on to Autism:
Well I have to ask the obvious, what about people like me who feel/think/believe that we won’t be accepted unless people stop trying to cure us?
Well firstly, thanks for bringing the level system into this, one thing that really irritates me is how people almost never distinguish what they’re talking about when they talk Autism; thus making it much easier for society to demonize Autism.
Because we have the level system in place, we can now ask the question why? Why is it that there are people like you that fluctuate between level 2 Autism and level “0.5?” Is there something in the physical environment that’s causing this? The food you eat? The electronic light you’re exposed too? The stress you experience each day? (Maybe it’s extreme form of Autism burnout?) Instead of trying make you “less Autistic,” why can’t we just look for a way to stabilize you?
So you believe that Autism is purely its negative aspects, that there is nothing else that distinguishes us from NTs; it’s merely the negative, debilitating aspects? You don’t believe that there are certain ways we, think and perceive reality that are different from NTs, that if you were “cured,” you’d simply be you minus your negative Autistic aspect and not, radically different from the way you are now? Is that all correct?
I think schizophrenics, like autistic people, want people to see them as a person and take the time to understand them, get to know them, and help them feel like they belong instead of focusing on ways to protect society from them.
I don't think gene therapy for autism will ever be possible. The goal of genetic research is to create a prenatal test to prevent autism through abortion just like they've successfully done to dramatically reduce the number of children born with Down Syndrome.
Until someone figures out what causes autism and is able to prove it, I think people will always have a variety of opinions about autism including the desire to cure it. I don't think there is anything that can be done about it.
I think it may be partly due to my immune system. The majority of people with autism have an immune system that produces antibodies that attack their brain which can create a mild brain inflammation that may be responsible for some symptoms of autism. Medicine that suppresses the immune system can make some kids less autistic but can be very harmful over the long-term since a weakened immune system can re-activate viruses and leave people vulnerable to infections.
76% of autistic people had Folate receptor α autoantibody (FRAA)
63% of autistic people had anti-MAG antibody
58% of autistic people had anti-myelin basic protein (anti-MBP) antibody
58% of autistic people had anti-ribosomal P protein antibody
25% of autistic people had antinuclear antibody (ANA)
Autoantibody and autism spectrum disorder: A systematic review - ScienceDirect
These antibodies are believed to contribute to symptoms in people with neurological disorders such as multiple sclerosis and autoimmune diseases such as lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. They indicate a disease process that may cause brain damage.
Here's what researchers already know to be one cause of autoimmunity in general (not specifically referring to autism): Vaccines, adjuvants and autoimmunity
Adjuvants, such as aluminum, are ingredients that stimulate the immune system to increase the antibody response to create effective vaccines against diseases people are trying to prevent. One unfortunate side-effect is they may lead to an overactive immune system that attacks their brain or body resulting in chronic autoimmune conditions.
If my symptoms of autism are caused by my immune system attacking my brain, I'd rather not have any brain inflammation or brain damage.
I believe there are a few positive aspects of autism that are a natural consequence of it in the same way that blindness can result in improved hearing. While those positive aspects would likely diminish, I believe I'd still be much better off not having autism.
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I’m not sure why you think anyone would or should care about autism unless they are affected by it in some way. Do you know how many people out there are trying to “raise awareness” about a million different things? You can’t get people’s attention about autism for the same reason no one can get your attention about cancer, Down’s Syndrome, epilepsy, Parkinson’s, borderline personality disorder, alcoholism, quadriplegia, poverty and hunger, speech impediments, dyslexia, etc. etc. etc. People are busy living their lives and don’t have time to pay attention to things that don’t affect them.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
It’s not about those who don’t care about Autism, it’s about those who do and hate it want to destroy it; I want to debate them and make my case that we be accepted and not combatted and psychologically destroyed.
Almost none of the people who want to eradicate us bother to even tell us we’re wrong, or even say we’re wrong; they just keep on going with their efforts to demonize Autism as this horrible monster that “takes” parents’ children.
The research you have quoted in relation to the immune system notes that the overall quality of the evidence is low. There are all sorts of ideas out there, and certainly based on that systematic review of evidence, this is nowhere near being an evidenced theory.
I was interested and glad to see you explain your own individual experience of autism in this thread, and it helps me understand your individual view.
In the end it's up to each of us how we spend our time in the world, but for any of us living now, it's not very likely any ideas that are currently at an early stage of enquiry will prove relevant to our lives. Many, many such ideas will be discarded.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
Autism before its discovery
First and foremost, the evidence is overwhelming that Autism is genetic. I’ve already heard quite a few stories out there of mothers having their kids diagnosed with Autism and then discovering that they, themselves are Autistic and so are most of their family members; most Autistic people come from engineering families; (Including mine! My dad is an engineer!) the evidence is just too much.
Second, I myself, might’ve went through an Autistic “regression” as a young child, it was very subtle, so subtle, my parents didn’t until they looked at old videotapes of me as a young child, years later. I remember hearing my parents talking with the experts about it and claiming that in those videos I did in fact, “make eye-contact” back then; I remember when I overheard that, I got really upset and feared that my Autism wasn’t something I was born with and could love, but really this horrible awful disease, but now when I think about it now, I now realize that are actually two, very simple possibilities as to what was really going on. The first and most simple explanation is to what was going on, is that, I was simply look at the camera that my parents were filming me with and they confused that for eye contact. The second explanation, is that, as I mentioned in another thread on here, the reason I cannot make eye contact is because I have to contemplate, what it is that’s being said and thus, can’t make eye contact while doing that; the second possible reason for why I could make eye contact back then, was because my intellect was not-yet fully developed and thus I wasn’t using it to contemplate things. That, might’ve been my Autistic “regression.”
Third thing I want to share, when I reverted to the Catholic Faith back in 2016, my physical health just sky-rocketed; I used get sick all the time as kid and teen, and have a lot of bowl issues, now I hardly ever get sick. I probably had another boost in health when I re-embraced being Autistic, I can tolerate some dairy products despite being lactose intolerant! What I’m getting here is that, I think a lot of Autistic comorbidities are more the result of stress than anything else; I’m not saying that all are, and certainly not suggesting that these autoimmune diseases are; but I think it’s worth considering in this discussion.
Finally, I’ll this quote from my thread I linked-to above, I highly recommend that you check it out:
That's a tall order, Greatshield17 /rolling up my sleeves/
It is very difficult to talk about things that were not yet defined, labeled, and agreed upon although biographies can be rich sources once you know which bios to read. So one does end up with a lot of
The best treatment of this that I have read is "Not Even Wrong". The author (a writer specializing in history, memoir, and unusual antiquarian literature) wrote it in response to his two-year-old's diagnosis. He asked the same question you do, and the book has the answers he uncovered. Might be a good starting point.
Another excellent piece is Autism's First Child (full document). It describes the first child that Kanner diagnosed with autism and gives some context to how he lived. The whole village showed up for him
I know in my personal history is genetic and not anything with vacines or toxins. Both of my parents, all three sibs, and paternal aunt and her youngest are all aspie. My five children range from mild to moderate aspie. Oddly, I have never found evidence of kanner's style in the family history. In the three generations with whom I am personally familiar, the XYs are all engineers and the XXs empaths (embarrassing, yet true).
My mom was totally into healthfood (in the 50s). We had to send away to Bulgaria for yogurt starter and we made all of our bread. The Wonder bread was delivered to the house in those days, but it was banned for us. We grew most of our veggies. I was obviously autistic before I ever got my first vaccine in the 50s (polio on a sugar cube - we did not have sugar in our house and that was a treat!).
The entire autism genetics field has been messed up by choosing to study autism through syndromes (trisomy 21, fragile x) and ignoring aspie-rich families.
I hope you keep us all in the loop with this project @Greatshield17!!
I’ll respond to the rest of your post later, right now, I’m overdue for a couple of things I need to get done.
There is an "injury" model of autism,...it is under the umbrella of the long list of things that can trigger the gene transcription. These are individuals that, genetically, would not have been born autistic,...but for these other reasons, the genes were activated and the process triggered. Inflammatory mediators triggered as a result of a maternal infection, for example. Extremely premature infants, for example, are at a significantly higher risk of having autism,...maternal hormones are cut off, the normal on/off switching of cytokines are disrupted, and they are exposed to significantly elevated inflammatory mediators. But,...make no mistake,...these events, by all accounts, have occurred early in gestation. Autopsy studies have shown alterations in the structures of the thalamus and cerebellum,...structures being formed during the first trimester,...before the migrational alterations in the cortex. All the post natal stimuli questioned and accused, have been intensely studied, the scientists and doctors with their unproven claims have been debunked,...association is not causation. People want answers. People want something to blame. The evidence suggests that with over 100 markers for autism on the human genome that autism predates vaccines,...it's been around for a long, long time,...and considering that not everyone has autism, intra-uterine conditions must be correct for triggering those autism genes. Furthermore, with identical twin studies,...one with autism, the other not,...it also suggests genes must be activated. Now, is there something in the environment that is increasing (environmental toxins, for example) that people are being exposed to that is affecting the unborn, resulting in more autistic children? That is being studied.
I am not going to have another long discussion about this.
I am not going to have another long discussion about this.
Greatshield17
Claritas Prayer Group#9435
On the contrary, there are a lot of positive qualities to being Autistic, qualities you may be experiencing at this very moment and unaware of; integrity, (my personal favourite) consistent thought and the ability to see the logical conclusion of things, good emotional empathy; one really big one that I just learned about a couple of months ago and think is really important to our times is, a natural immunity to Identitarianism. This article here explains that Autistic people experience identity different from Neurotypicals, (The Identity Theory of Autism: How Autistic Identity Is Experienced Differently please note that I do not necessarily agree with all the views expressed in this article) Autistic people have a much easier time thinking trans-culturally and empathizing with people outside of their collective identity. Now this is good for protecting against like racism, bigotry, excluding people who are deemed to be different and the like; but there is something else about Identitarianism that I think, is much more dangerous. Benito Mussolini said the following about Fascism (which arguably, is just Italian Identitarianism):
“If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and those who claim to be the bearers of objective immortal truth, then there is nothing more relativistic than Fascist attitudes and activity.”
Now, how is it that nothing is more relativistic than Identitarian attitudes and activity? Well it’s actually quite simple, if a Neurotypical’s life revolves their own cultural or national identity, then eventually it’ll be as though nothing exists outside their cultural or national identity; for the Identitarian, there is no objective reality outside of their identity, it’s basically is a form of collective solipsism.
Identitarianism, if left unchecked will ultimately lead to Neurotypicals becoming unhinged from reality itself, it’s not healthy for them. This is one of the ways where Autism is not only good, it’s actually an important component of society as a whole; Neurotypicals need us whether they know it or not, and failing to accept us will lead to a lot of negative consequences down the road.
What evidence do you have that autistic people have more integrity than people who are not autistic. I'm not saying it isn't true but it seems like something that would be difficult to measure.
"consistent thought and the ability to see the logical conclusion of things" - While that is certainly true for some autistic people, it's not true for everyone who is autistic and is true for some people who aren't autistic.
I'd like to see evidence autism causes "good emotional empathy." I went on another autism forum for people who felt like they weren't on the right planet and it was full of narcissists. I've also met autistic people in real life who act like emotionless robots who appear to completely lack empathy. I'm aware some autistic people have good emotional empathy but I don't know of any evidence that autism causes it.
"a natural immunity to Identitarianism" sounds like a consequence of being alone and not feeling like you belong anywhere.
I see the advantages but I don't think they outweight the drawbacks. I'd rather identify with a group and feel like I belong somewhere.
There's no need to convince me autism is great since my self-worth isn't based on my opinion of autism. Whether I think of autism as a superior strength or a horrible disease doesn't change how I feel about myself. I'm aware that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and that none of them make me any better or worse than anyone else.
@Greatshield17 didn't say autism was great. I am not sure if you actually misunderstand other's perspectives or if you are just not open to other's views? You tend to misquote others in an oversimplified way and then disagree with what you misquote, which wasn't their view anyway. This does make ongoing discussion with you rather frustrating and seemingly pointless.
Perhaps try reviewing your own approaches to discussion, especially in the light of what you have already said about how others sometimes perceive you. The style you have could be interpreted by some either as autistic rigidity or as neurotypical or autistic narcissism.
There are others here who make their points in this way, and it's also common enough on any forum, but I don't tend to bother discussing anything with them beyond a certain point because they apparently can't consider others ideas despite that they can't either evidence their own often idiosyncratic position.
I discuss other's views because I'm open-minded so any misunderstandings aren't intentional. I do have trouble understanding some posts I read but I do the best I can. I've struggled with being misunderstood and other people misunderstanding me my entire life which I attribute to being autistic. In a verbal conversation people can let me know right away to correct misunderstandings and allow me to clarify what I meant. It's more difficult communicating on a forum. I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding other people or if other people are misunderstanding me because they're too sensitive or because I'm not good at choosing the right words to use but I don't think it's rigidity and it's definitely not narcissism.
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