Adult Daughter intolerant and condescending about me sharing my diagnosis and trying to educate her about it

[Neri]

Yes regarding the monitization. She has highly capitalistic aspirations. She is disappointed in me (one reason, at least) because when she was pregnant she told me to get my drivers license, so I could come over, at her beck and call, to help her with baby.
I haven't done that yet, but, I'm working on it, albeit slowly.
One of the reasons for my diagnosis, to get some more assistance around learning to drive and getting a licence.
Her entitlement around that is something I'm willing to address though. I think offering her to drop baby off, for the day, is reasonable, even without my licence. Potentially, she won't take me up on that. I sense a little need to feel victimized by my lack of abilities, as firmly as her denial of them. Which seems a little vindictive. But daddy modelled a lot of that, so it shouldn't be surprising.

Actually, I think I've modelled plenty of victimisation around my own parents lack of abilities, as well. I suspect it's a very common thing. Not mature. But not uncommon.

 

[Neri]

This isn't the situation I was writing for earlier, so part of what I wrote isn't applicable.

It sounds like you're not looking to mitigate bad behavior as such. This seems like a trade: access to your grand-daughter vs services (primarily babysitting). I'll get back to you on this.

Too bad there was a long-standing difference in power between you and your ex.
But something you may not have considered earlier: "Labelling is disabling" is stupid (it's generally incorrect), but it's probably also an example of someone painting a target on their own back. It sounds like it is (or was) something to help him deny a major insecurity to himself, and deflect it in conversation.

Back on topic, the change in the power dynamic means different tactics are needed.

A suggestion: defer having "the talk" you mentioned with your daughter.
It would be likely to induce pushback, which would be counter-productive (at least if you're playing to win). It's easier to get the results you want if you never provide something to push against.

"The best way to get someone to do what you want is to give them what they want".

For now, you want to "monetize" your daughter's need for attention and (the illusion of) control, rather than "cure " them.

I agree "labelling is disabling" is, indeed, stupid.

It's been utterly ridiculous and pathological when it comes to having a "high needs," "cognitively impaired" autistic child.

It frustrates me how my other older adult children, the 3 that aren't that always-wil-be-like-a-child-but-isn't-a-child (he's now in his 30's) seem to have huge issues with cognitive dissonance and some kind of trauma induced amnesia around all this.

My oldest daughter, the one in question, has made headway in this regard, but the two other boys are not doing real well with it. They are not at all well, mentally.

The oldest has schizophrenia and can admit that, but fails to see where he is not thinking, in regards to his disabled next-brother-down (who is also diagnosed with schizophrenia). And the middle son is very bpdy and very much his Dad's flying monkey, has been since I left his dad.

He hasn't forgiven me for leaving and has also told me that he, most likely "cannot have a relationship with me while his father is alive".
But, I hear he is planning on getting diagnosed and getting treated in the not-too-distant future (he is away at the moment, meaning he's interstate and not at his dad's).
So maybe things will shift with him.

My ex loved to say I was a hypercondriac (not remotely true) and that I was "crazy" . So he's happy to use labels in a dismissive and derogatory way, when it suits him. Funny how the kid's don't see the discrepancy there.

 

[Neri]

My wife’s death set the stage for me to self-diagnose. In the aftermath (months later) was a bad time to reveal it to my son, but I foolishly thought they, like me, would be gratified to understand some of my oddities. Not the case.

Since then, I have been profoundly ashamed that my own sons took it as an ‘excuse’, as you say, for being less than perfect. A talk with my DIL also revealed that they felt robbed; they had always been semi-secretly proud of my 2E skills and accomplishments, and finding out it was due to a fault rather than simple mental prowess was unacceptable.

But I suffered several months of inconsolable grief following the death, during which I was there for nobody, definitely not the rational stoic they expected… a grave failure, apparently. Following such a display, they concluded I was making excuses. It would be a few years before I could start to forgive them for abandoning me the first time I ever really needed them to be there for me.

One son, I came to realize, is married to a family deeply impacted by autism. His wife and at least two of her (previous) children are undiagnosed but pretty obvious, and most of the grandchildren are moving through the various pseudo diagnoses of ADD, ADHD, and one autism diagnosis. DIL’s stance is that we’re all people and nobody has the right to say you have some judgmental thing wrong with you. Not much support for me, as I think she feels the school authorities are zeroing in on a private family secret she doesn’t feel the need to discuss.

The other son was disgusted at my claim. But I raised and homeschooled the little brat to think, investigate, mull things over. Several hard months later, I asked if he was investigating. He said he was… “a little”. He was bugged when I said, “Great! I know you’ll come around.” Slowly but surely, he has been coming around, but still doesn’t want to discuss it.

So I figure that, if my own carefully trained children can be bigoted and selfish b!tch@s, I can’t expect better from the world. Both sons had previously adopted the autism-as-scam attitude and breaking that down is a successful project still in process. I was way too successful in teaching that excuses don’t cut mustard.

A lot of what you describe here sounds pretty rough. Painful.
I feel a lot of empathy in your story.
I can hardly imagine the pain of losing a beloved partner.
And then to have your kid's treat you like that?
Sounds super difficult.
You sounds like an amazing, wise and resilient guy who is also a person of faith.
I take great solace in our commonalities.
Thank you for sharing such painful stuff.
It really helps.

 

[The Pandector]

A lot of what you describe here sounds pretty rough. Painful.
I feel a lot of empathy in your story.
I can hardly imagine the pain of losing a beloved partner.
And then to have your kid's treat you like that?
Sounds super difficult.
You sounds like an amazing, wise and resilient guy who is also a person of faith.
I take great solace in our commonalities.
Thank you for sharing such painful stuff.
It really helps.

Yes. It was also helpful for me to read about your family, as it is much like what my son married into and I am now a part of. Maybe the greatest thing about this forum is knowing that your problems are not some isolated cosmic weirdness aimed at you, but are shared by others in similar circumstance. I look forward to hearing how your situation slowly unfolds and improves.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Neri

I suggest we start with something simple and see if it works.
If it's a new idea, please don't try it out without discussing it first. This will be similar to what I mentioned before: we find a way to check you daughter in ways that don't induce pushback.

It's quite difficult to both check and avoid pushback at first, because It's hard to avoid displaying this via micro-expressions:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...iars-smile-the-telltale-tic-of-duping-delight
Important - I can't find an image of the real thing, but there are a lot that show the wrong expression. Ignore them all for now. I might get lucky and find one.

The details aren't critical now anyway. The issue is that experienced manipulators are very good at recognizing it, and honest people are bad at hiding it. And you must not get into a situation where your daughter "catches" and challenges you.
It sounds like you have at least one skilled liar in your past - someone who could talk their way out of a problem.
Such people can handle getting caught on small errors. But it's a liar's skill, and your daughter will be better at it than you.

So my first suggestion (it may not match your real situation, but at worst it's a starting point):

Use structured scheduling of your babysitting services to check your daughter occasionally, with the aim of normalizing a genuine negotiation. Maybe ease into a once a week call to set it up. You can create a synthetic requirement for this easily: have something scheduled at the same time as your daughter wants your services. Let her "win" the first time, but not the second.

BTW - you'll see this approach makes a lot of assumptions, and may not be applicable. But even if it just triggers you filling in some of the gaps in how you interact with your daughter it's a step forward.

BTW - I can't help with schizophrenic behavior. My skills are purely defensive, so they're specialized. Annoying/intrusive Narc behavior is quite common, so I get plenty of practice with that :/

 

[Neri]

@Neri

I suggest we start with something simple and see if it works.
If it's a new idea, please don't try it out without discussing it first. This will be similar to what I mentioned before: we find a way to check you daughter in ways that don't induce pushback.

It's quite difficult to both check and avoid pushback at first, because It's hard to avoid displaying this via micro-expressions:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...iars-smile-the-telltale-tic-of-duping-delight
Important - I can't find an image of the real thing, but there are a lot that show the wrong expression. Ignore them all for now. I might get lucky and find one.

The details aren't critical now anyway. The issue is that experienced manipulators are very good at recognizing it, and honest people are bad at hiding it. And you must not get into a situation where your daughter "catches" and challenges you.
It sounds like you have at least one skilled liar in your past - someone who could talk their way out of a problem.
Such people can handle getting caught on small errors. But it's a liar's skill, and your daughter will be better at it than you.

So my first suggestion (it may not match your real situation, but at worst it's a starting point):

Use structured scheduling of your babysitting services to check your daughter occasionally, with the aim of normalizing a genuine negotiation. Maybe ease into a once a week call to set it up. You can create a synthetic requirement for this easily: have something scheduled at the same time as your daughter wants your services. Let her "win" the first time, but not the second.

BTW - you'll see this approach makes a lot of assumptions, and may not be applicable. But even if it just triggers you filling in some of the gaps in how you interact with your daughter it's a step forward.

BTW - I can't help with schizophrenic behavior. My skills are purely defensive, so they're specialized. Annoying/intrusive Narc behavior is quite common, so I get plenty of practice with that :/

Food for thought.

I am very familar with "duper's delight" types. Well, at least one, and my significant other, two. We compare notes sometimes.

I'm just not sure what's really going on with my girl.

We've been invited to a bbq by the other grandma. Coming up soon. I think we'll go. Mainly to hang out and play with bubba girl.
I'll tread very lightly with my girl.
I'll have to put my best mask on, which I can't say I particularly like doing, but, she's forced my hand. I don't have any alternative that avoids so much more familial chaos
Maybe she'll give me some more info to go on, my daught. I admit I'm flummoxed. I didn't see this level of disrespect and hostility coming.
I really don't know enough about what's really going on with her, but all things point to the necessity to tread very lightly and to be on my guard.
Certainly some of it points to a level of psyche damage that will be in her best interest to address.
Ine thing I do know, is that she's not as arrogant and malicious or empathy deficient as her dad.

She's showed a lot of affection toward me that I never saw from him.

All in all, the clearest thing to come out of this for me, is my need for water tight boundaries and a lot more self respect, to make up for her lacking. I really think seeing how her dad has been all these years has done enormous damage to her ability to see me clearly and to have respect for me. To witness someone abuse someone narcissistically like that, for your whole life, someone socially guileless and desperately unhappy and pretty much enslaved, well, it's not something that a "golden child" is going to have any respect for, evidently.

Maybe thinking of my as autistic, just shows daddy in a more horrible light than she can bear. Not only 16 when he bedded me. Not only a vulnerable and alone child-woman, but socially and neurally impaired in a strange, paradoxical way. I don't think she can get her head around it, because in ways I'm incredibly strong, AND mentally vulnerable, intellectually complex and astute, and yet a struggler, a marginalised oddball and impaired in ways. Confusing I'd say.

I still think she needs a lot of time to process everything and I will offer the childcare while keeping a bit of distance between myself and my beloved daughter.

 

[Neri]

Yes. It was also helpful for me to read about your family, as it is much like what my son married into and I am now a part of. Maybe the greatest thing about this forum is knowing that your problems are not some isolated cosmic weirdness aimed at you, but are shared by others in similar circumstance. I look forward to hearing how your situation slowly unfolds and improves.

I think it's the greatest thing about finally figuring out my autism. To know I'm not just some weird, unacceptable person and I can't figure out why people shun me and worse, denigrate me and treat me like I'm lesser than them, when I know I'm a decent human with a lot of positives to offer.

To figure out I'm actually part a a world wide culture of awesome people, different but also not unlike me in many ways; ways of struggling, ways of learning and hyperfocusing, ways of disregarding authoritative claims, premises and conventions that don't make sense, ways of pattern recognition and processing data and plenty of us have a deep love of truthfulness and honesty and straightforwardness that makes me feel safe and secure.

 

[Neri]

To the OP, you're not alone.

It still hurts each and every time I mention autism for whatever reason to my cousin, who always manages to marginalize autism itself. Yet she has had a background in medical insurance for decades.

My own brother seemed to acknowledge it the best he could, yet clearly at times he doesn't understand how it is manifested by me. When sometimes we are forced to live under such circumstances, where it's more than likely they may never comprehensively understand us. And of course the reciprocal, and how difficult it can be on a daily basis to exist in a Neurotypical world.

Thank you for your empathetic response. I guess we challenge some (maybe many) people, in ways they are not willing or happy to be challenged and, so, such dismissiveness is, potentially, a defensive ploy against awareness of unknowns. I don't think it's the auties who have an onus on not being comfortable with "too much" difference and lack of understanding. That seems to be a human thing. Cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance.
I take much solace in knowing I am not alone in all this, though

 

[Neri]

Telling someone you maybe have or are diagnosed with autism, is like telling them you have cancer. My mom totally blew me off. It definitely runs on her side. Now about 6 months later, l think she is thinking about it more. As my brother and mother have both held jobs that people on the spectrum do well at. Maybe just step back, and get on with this understanding and acceptance of yourself. And welcome to the tribe. I mean to the forum. Now if we could only get a Disneyland pass or a lifetime of free ice cream cones at Dairy Queen, that would be sweet. But this forum is a great place to come when you need support.

Thank you for the lovely welcome.

 

[Hypnalis]

I'm just not sure what's really going on with my girl.

IMO you're over-thinking this situation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS, here because I can't write anything before the quote for some technical reason:
I don't remember if I said it before, but IMO you should not discuss your diagnosis with your daughter.
ASD is very hard to explain at best, and it's harder still for an NT to understand even the best explanation.
IMO its more like to distract from what really matters than it is to help.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the original version of this post (this came after the "overthinking" comment):

I still don't have all the info I need, but if I assume this is her first child, I'd start with this scenario:
(Note that this could be mostly wrong - it's just a scenario)

What's changed:

* Your daughter has matured as part of the adult to parent transition
* She has (or should have) accepted a new dominating responsibility (her child)

These have changed her priorities, and she's less engaged in some of her hobby activities (including playing irresponsible dominance games with you).
((BTW - I'm, not excluding the possibility that you are part of the problem But it's not important, and doesn't influence the scenario.))

If she's changed in this way, there's an ongoing opportunity, but the path forward is muddied by the past.

Your simplest plan in that case would be:
1. Let the past go - i.e. let the relationship develop naturally, as though it was a new one for you
2. Focus on interactions with your grand-daughter (which means access is a high priority)
3. Minimum intensity behavior normalization with your daughter (this is what I've been talking about). The goal here is to reduce the drama to acceptable levels, not to "fix" anything.

(3) includes politeness in personal interactions and in actions (the normal "balance of services" that informal exchanges of time, energy, and resources run on)

Note that the "whys" of the past and the present are not on that list.
It's not that they are irrelevant, but that they are not important enough to get on that list.

Between people, some things can't be perfectly resolved, but even so, the links can't be severed. So you do the best you can moving forward.

BTW I have an ongoing situation in my life which isn't the same, but it's comparable.
I handle it more-or-less as per the "scenario plan" above: Let go (not 100% possible, but it's still the goal), and do the best I can in the present.
We'll never be "drama free", and neither of us can change enough to dispel the underlying tensions, but in the present the good times outweigh the bad times.

 

[Neri]

IMO you're over-thinking this situation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS, here because I can't write anything before the quote for some technical reason:
I don't remember if I said it before, but IMO you should not discuss your diagnosis with your daughter.
ASD is very hard to explain at best, and it's harder still for an NT to understand even the best explanation.
IMO its more like to distract from what really matters than it is to help.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the original version of this post (this came after the "overthinking" comment):

I still don't have all the info I need, but if I assume this is her first child, I'd start with this scenario:
(Note that this could be mostly wrong - it's just a scenario)

What's changed:

* Your daughter has matured as part of the adult to parent transition
* She has (or should have) accepted a new dominating responsibility (her child)

These have changed her priorities, and she's less engaged in some of her hobby activities (including playing irresponsible dominance games with you).
((BTW - I'm, not excluding the possibility that you are part of the problem But it's not important, and doesn't influence the scenario.))

If she's changed in this way, there's an ongoing opportunity, but the path forward is muddied by the past.

Your simplest plan in that case would be:
1. Let the past go - i.e. let the relationship develop naturally, as though it was a new one for you
2. Focus on interactions with your grand-daughter (which means access is a high priority)
3. Minimum intensity behavior normalization with your daughter (this is what I've been talking about). The goal here is to reduce the drama to acceptable levels, not to "fix" anything.

(3) includes politeness in personal interactions and in actions (the normal "balance of services" that informal exchanges of time, energy, and resources run on)

Note that the "whys" of the past and the present are not on that list.
It's not that they are irrelevant, but that they are not important enough to get on that list.

Between people, some things can't be perfectly resolved, but even so, the links can't be severed. So you do the best you can moving forward.

BTW I have an ongoing situation in my life which isn't the same, but it's comparable.
I handle it more-or-less as per the "scenario plan" above: Let go (not 100% possible, but it's still the goal), and do the best I can in the present.
We'll never be "drama free", and neither of us can change enough to dispel the underlying tensions, but in the present the good times outweigh the bad times.

This is good advice for me.
I'm still burning over it and have low mood and its not helping me.
And it has to do with much past hurt.
I really need to "let it go". I can't expect it to completely stop hurting but I can pay it as little mind as possible, because, at this point, I am just, needlessly hurting myself over something outside of my control.

In part I think it is a language miscommunication, which I blame the DSM Manual people for. She had accepted Aspergers, I think, but the word "Autism" seems to be a misunderstood one.

I was speaking to my dad today and he had the same reaction.

He doesn't get "Autism", thinks it has to do with lack of communicative ability and seeing as he's a linguist, he thinks he's very good at communication and so the term is one he cannot relate too.

I wish tbey would stop changing the language. Now there is this "BAP" term as well? When will they just stop changing the terms continuosly? I still prefer the yerm Aspergers or Aspie, but, that is diagnostically incorrect now, but at least I, sort of keep up.
My daughter wouldn't even hear me about that, she's "just over it".
I still don't know what number they've assigned me, nor do I know about my "high needs" son, whether he's a 2 or a 3. I don't know whether I'm a 1 or a 2. It will matter a lot in terms of the kinds of supports I am seeking.

It's funny, my dad was telling me today that he really relates to the "Rainman" character. I can see how he does, as my dad is not a particularly good masker and he's socially very awkward. But then he tells me he is so good with language and he was hyperlexic as a kid (my word, not his). But I know for a fact he didn't talk until he was 4 and then spoke in full sentences.
Its really all a matter of people not being very well educated about "Autism". Having preconceived ideas and then having cognitive dissonance when presented with ideas they think they know more about than they do.

I find it frustrating, which is why I was so passionately, kind of zealously, trying to educate. Which was what got me into this trouble in the first place.
I was "being too autistic about being autistic".
And my daughter was not interested.
On top of that, I gave her too much leeway by trying to be understanding and saying "I can see how you might think I'm a hypercondriac, but, I'm not".

She came back at me with "But even you said you could see how you look hypercondriac" which was the thing that sent me into such a tailspin. Such a cruel thing her dad used to invalidate me with, when I was asking for help and very ill. But it's my masking skills and incongruous autistic presentation that's caused me much disservice here. I've been too strong and able to push through and function despite being in a terrible state of health that's caused me to remain unhelped and undiagnosed for so long. All the way from childhood. It's my inability to communicate what's on the inside in ways that people can understand.

 

[Hypnalis]

I'm just not sure what's really going on with my girl

I find it frustrating, which is why I was so passionately, kind of zealously, trying to educate. Which was what got me into this trouble in the first place.

I think your making a very large number of questionable assumptions, and that they're making it hard for you to set reasonable tactical objectives.. An example we discussed earlier is "understanding vs acceptance".

Understanding is better, but can be difficult or impossible to achieve. Acceptance is better, and much easier to achieve (it can even be forced in many cases, like people who dislike each other working together).

We can talk more about this if you like, but FWIW I've been deliberately avoiding the "why" so far.
I'd have to check back for the details, but earlier I suspected your kids are caught by an unfortunate dynamic between you and your ex, and wondered if you'd forgotten that deep down, kids view their home life as normal.
If that's somewhat correct:
1. In general, that can't easily be "reset" in an adult
2. I don't think have o do that to get what you need right now

Note that the full version of the semantic content (2) is heavy going at best. Letting go of everything in the past is easier on everyone.
:
:
Some comments on the words for ASD:

If you go back into the past, Autists were mostly considered to be people who couldn't take care of themselves. There used to be IQ caps on the definitions - IIRC originally "Aspies" were max IQ 80, but ok at speaking (might be wrong on the details, but the general point is correct).
For context, IQ 80 is "not smart enough to be worth recruiting" in the US army (minimum these days is 84).

Your parents generation probably still assume "Autism" = need to be in permanent care.
People generally view "Aspie" as being much less serious, and not necessarily accompanied by low IQ - now even less so (thanks Elon!

Earlier US DSMs (certainly DSM 4) didn't treat it quite that way, but they ran into some problems:
* ASD is defined by behavioral "symptoms" (compare with Covid, where they can look for a virus. Or Psychopathy: the potential can be usefully measured via brainscans (actual expression requires more, but the scans are useful)).
* There's a huge amount of variation in people that are diagnosed with ASD

So the earlier "slice and dice" approach looks better than DSM-5, but wasn't actually successful IRL.

DSM-5, went with a simpler identification process, and less slice and dice" with what they called ASD. The 1/2/3 split is pragmatic - it's based on how much care is needed (1 is little/none (so no payments from the state), 3 is a lot).

Explaining this mess to your parents generation is probably a waste of energy.

Along the way, a depressingly small number of people considered something obvious, and actually did some work (not much I think) on it:

Clearly if you can apply a name like "ASD" it's reasonable to assume that everyone in the category must have something in common.
Not in a way that can be split out into clean sub-categories though (that's what DSM-4 assumed and it didn't work well). But the existence of a larger category (ASD) implies there should be a common subset linking everything within it

That seems to have been the idea with BAP, though other sources present it as "sub-clinical versions of ASD traits, which is different. I only looked at one source for this, and it had the "may have A, may have B, ..." formulation, and "fixation on objects/interests", which isn't consistent with "common to almost everyone diagnosed with ASD" viewpoint.

Either way (or both), AFAIK it's not in the medical mainstream (it's not even on wikipedia), which means it might currently be in the hands of the "snake oil specialists". But the principle is sound, and it doesn't seem easy to misuse/abuse.

(unlike ABA, which looks ok, and may be in some situations - but when used with ASD kids it lends itself to poor implementation, with bad results for the victims).

 

[Neri]

I think your making a very large number of questionable assumptions, and that they're making it hard for you to set reasonable tactical objectives.. An example we discussed earlier is "understanding vs acceptance".

Understanding is better, but can be difficult or impossible to achieve. Acceptance is better, and much easier to achieve (it can even be forced in many cases, like people who dislike each other working together).

We can talk more about this if you like, but FWIW I've been deliberately avoiding the "why" so far.
I'd have to check back for the details, but earlier I suspected your kids are caught by an unfortunate dynamic between you and your ex, and wondered if you'd forgotten that deep down, kids view their home life as normal.
If that's somewhat correct:
1. In general, that can't easily be "reset" in an adult
2. I don't think have o do that to get what you need right now

Note that the full version of the semantic content (2) is heavy going at best. Letting go of everything in the past is easier on everyone.
:
:
Some comments on the words for ASD:

If you go back into the past, Autists were mostly considered to be people who couldn't take care of themselves. There used to be IQ caps on the definitions - IIRC originally "Aspies" were max IQ 80, but ok at speaking (might be wrong on the details, but the general point is correct).
For context, IQ 80 is "not smart enough to be worth recruiting" in the US army (minimum these days is 84).

Your parents generation probably still assume "Autism" = need to be in permanent care.
People generally view "Aspie" as being much less serious, and not necessarily accompanied by low IQ - now even less so (thanks Elon!

Earlier US DSMs (certainly DSM 4) didn't treat it quite that way, but they ran into some problems:
* ASD is defined by behavioral "symptoms" (compare with Covid, where they can look for a virus. Or Psychopathy: the potential can be usefully measured via brainscans (actual expression requires more, but the scans are useful)).
* There's a huge amount of variation in people that are diagnosed with ASD

So the earlier "slice and dice" approach looks better than DSM-5, but wasn't actually successful IRL.

DSM-5, went with a simpler identification process, and less slice and dice" with what they called ASD. The 1/2/3 split is pragmatic - it's based on how much care is needed (1 is little/none (so no payments from the state), 3 is a lot).

Explaining this mess to your parents generation is probably a waste of energy.

Along the way, a depressingly small number of people considered something obvious, and actually did some work (not much I think) on it:

Clearly if you can apply a name like "ASD" it's reasonable to assume that everyone in the category must have something in common.
Not in a way that can be split out into clean sub-categories though (that's what DSM-4 assumed and it didn't work well). But the existence of a larger category (ASD) implies there should be a common subset linking everything within it

That seems to have been the idea with BAP, though other sources present it as "sub-clinical versions of ASD traits, which is different. I only looked at one source for this, and it had the "may have A, may have B, ..." formulation, and "fixation on objects/interests", which isn't consistent with "common to almost everyone diagnosed with ASD" viewpoint.

Either way (or both), AFAIK it's not in the medical mainstream (it's not even on wikipedia), which means it might currently be in the hands of the "snake oil specialists". But the principle is sound, and it doesn't seem easy to misuse/abuse.

(unlike ABA, which looks ok, and may be in some situations - but when used with ASD kids it lends itself to poor implementation, with bad results for the victims).

You've made some very valid points here.

I'm going to get some more support around all of this tomorrow.
I have to wait a short while, to get a loan through, to pay off my assessment report, to find out with which level ASD I was assessed as.

It's all been compounded by a horrible childhood and early parenthood to an older, extremely narcissistic person and much trauma ensuing. So mine is a co morb 2e kind of ASD.
I don't know what the future holds for my daughter and I . My younger daughter and I have discussed it (she was witness to every exchange). She told her sister she was being "too harsh" and that is the real issue.

Trying to gauge whether, for "reasons" my older daughter wants to "blow up" our relationship, which I think not. But the Dad conditioning is showing itself strongly and I just don't know how much more of the gaslighting, blame shifting, dismissing type of treatment I can contine to open myself to.

I realise my complex ptsd is not as "healed" as I thought. There I was celebrating the long awaited completion to my 33 years of parenthood, as youngest turned 18 and is living independently (we are very close, but he moved out late last year) . From the tender age of 17, to nearly 51. Thinking yay! Things were looking up, with all of my children. I finished the main slog of it all. Such a marathon.

But the Dad is continually keeping up the ****** mean spirited ploys; and I didn't think my daughter would stoop to that kind of mean spiritedness and arrogance slash ignorance, but she did.

I have no control over how she behaves toward me, but I can put in boundaries that treat myself respectfully.

I can't stand this kind of drama!

If I can't even be heard out to explain that Aspergers and Autism are considered the same thing now, because she rolls her eyes and won't even respect me enough to listen, I just don't know.

It makes me so sad, because she is pushing me away and yet I know she wants a mum, her mum. I just wish she could except that I try REALLY hard, I always have, but these things about me, I can't change. They are the things acceptance is needed around.

It's just a respect issue really. I didn't know she had so little for me. I didn't know she was harbouring such an abusive attitude that reeks of narcissism.

I feel so hurt and it's making me feel sorry for myself and I don't want that.

It's back to feeling so invisible to someone I love and care for so deeply. This brings up SO MUCH trauma for me. Luckily, I started with a new psychologist recently. I see her tomorrow.

I've always been terrified that I would let my children down the way my (ND) parents let me down. And I probably have.

But I will never stop working on myself and being a person who I can respect, knowing I am not malingering, I'm doing all this to get the support I need to try to thrive.

That's how I deal with a lifetime of shabby treatment. I know I have disabilities. I needn't have, if people had been less hung up on their own need to use and abuse me. But it's damaged me. On top of a weird brain that is so full of contradictions I am having to constantly learn new things about myself, coz I barely understand myself. I think I can do things, but then I realise I can't. I function at a very low ebb these days.Other Autist and AuDHD educators and peer support are my lifeline these days.

 

[Hypnalis]

There's a typo in my post: it should read "Acceptance is enough"

I won't respond to the rest as a whole (or at least not in one step, but:
I've been skipping around the "you/her father" part because that kind if thing can be too intense to raise in a forum, and I'm not the supportive type anyway. I'm good at figuring things out, but have learned not to share too much even when I'm right

Back on track: you have to let him go too, even if you have good reason to believe he's still causing trouble.
Come back to this later if you like (but in a conversation, not a public thread), but for now - he's the most important thing you have to get distance from. And not just for you.

It's just a respect issue really. I didn't know she had so little for me.

If this really matters, walk away. Seriously.

But respect, as used in the 2020's, is a funny thing. There's a reason (not necessarily valid) for the lack of respect. The behavior is a symptom of that.
This gives you two reasonable objectives:
1. Shape the behavior so you can keep getting access to you grand-daughter (if this doesn't matter to you, consider just walking way)
2. Look for a way to address the underlying cause of the respect issue. Which is hard, because (a) just understanding it will be quite difficult, and (b) changing it will be very difficult.
But even if it's impossible, it's worth thinking it through

It seems to me you're not separating (1) from (2), and you're not addressing (2) in a realistic way yet.

I don't mean (2) can't be addressed, but the best way to gather information is to have calm adult-adult discussions with your daughter.
Which means no more dominance games on either side. Jockeying for status/power makes the kind of information exchange you need much more difficult.

As part of this, I suggest you try to classify the discussions that included your sharing and explaining your ASD diagnosis.
* Why did you do that? You had an objective and this was a means of achieving it. What was the goal? What was the means? What, if anything, were you avoiding? What else might you have done instead?
* Was the timing right (in terms of your relationship)? Clearly it wasn't, so this is really "why was it wrong?".
* Was the delivery correct? Also clearly no, but why? Might better technique with the same objectives and facts have been significantly more effective? (An aside - In high-end sales this is a continuous process. It's very useful)
* Why wasn't your daughter receptive? If you choose to answer this, don't dig deep on this one. It's easy to get lost. But if it didn't "answer itself" in the three points above, spend a couple of minutes on it

 

[TBRS1]

I've not heard of the "Main Character Syndrome" I'll have to look into it.
I've researched narcissism quite extensively. Needed it to get my head around my ex's behaviour. He and Daughty were very tight for a long time. She was quite the golden child at one point. She feels not so popular with her dad these days.
She and Daddy were called "Grandiose" by my son's psychiatrist, at one point.
I've never been able to point out Daddy's narcissism. I've had to keep quiet about his devious and emotionally cruel treatment of me. They know, but there seems to be a code of never saying anything about it and being amnesiac about it. They let the odd admission out. She mentioned "brainwashing" in relation to him once, but he is let off, for the most part. Maybe it's just too scary and destabilizing to admit how he really is?

What do you mean by "soft mitigation technique? I am intrigued.

One of the most horrible things that can happen in a long-term relationship is when one of the " adults" gains leverage over the other by enlisting children as covert agents (I phrase this politically because it is "home politics").

I have no advice, though. But I understand some of what you're experiencing, and have huge sympathy for your situation.

 

[Neri]

One of the most horrible things that can happen in a long-term relationship is when one of the " adults" gains leverage over the other by enlisting children as covert agents (I phrase this politically because it is "home politics").

I have no advice, though. But I understand some of what you're experiencing, and have huge sympathy for your situation.

That's alright. Not sure that I was needing advice. It's a complex issue requiring extra specialist advice. I'm a specialist in my own situation and, I think, my psychologist, who I see today, is very qualified, so we're all good on the advice front.

What is SO lovely, is the kind, sympathetic understanding!

I already spent 9 years estranged or being abused by that daughter and I thought we were past that. And I don't think she's very aware about how narcissistic her behaviour comes across as, at the moment, but, I know for sure some things are going to have to be confronted if they are to improve.

It's VERY political. Once I started to get my head around the Dad's behaviour. I categorized him as a "politician type" in my head.

I really don't understand the need for such desperate and insecure power ploys, but people that use them exist.

I guess I needed an education about that side of human nature and human foible.
There were and are still so many things I didn't understand, but, I'm learning.

Anyway, I'm in danger of overloading you with information, which, I'm pretty sure, is a thing I do that people don't like, so I better stop.

I think, just before I go, that I wanted to voice how lonely the 2e situation is. It's not well understood. Hans Aspergers seemed to have his head around it quite well, but, most people don't.
For those who don't know 2e stands for twice exceptional. "Gifted" (often high "IQ" but, perhaps not always) and at the same time disabled.
I have a partner and a son in the same boat so I am not all alone, even though my son moved out and is soon to be moving to a large city 1000,s of km (or miles) away.
But otherwise, I'm just fortunate to be in the process of getting some assistance to be included into society in a fashion. It is through the psychosocial disability lens, but, well, its better than nothing.

 

[Neri]

There's a typo in my post: it should read "Acceptance is enough"

I won't respond to the rest as a whole (or at least not in one step, but:
I've been skipping around the "you/her father" part because that kind if thing can be too intense to raise in a forum, and I'm not the supportive type anyway. I'm good at figuring things out, but have learned not to share too much even when I'm right

Back on track: you have to let him go too, even if you have good reason to believe he's still causing trouble.
Come back to this later if you like (but in a conversation, not a public thread), but for now - he's the most important thing you have to get distance from. And not just for you.


If this really matters, walk away. Seriously.

But respect, as used in the 2020's, is a funny thing. There's a reason (not necessarily valid) for the lack of respect. The behavior is a symptom of that.
This gives you two reasonable objectives:
1. Shape the behavior so you can keep getting access to you grand-daughter (if this doesn't matter to you, consider just walking way)
2. Look for a way to address the underlying cause of the respect issue. Which is hard, because (a) just understanding it will be quite difficult, and (b) changing it will be very difficult.
But even if it's impossible, it's worth thinking it through

It seems to me you're not separating (1) from (2), and you're not addressing (2) in a realistic way yet.

I don't mean (2) can't be addressed, but the best way to gather information is to have calm adult-adult discussions with your daughter.
Which means no more dominance games on either side. Jockeying for status/power makes the kind of information exchange you need much more difficult.

As part of this, I suggest you try to classify the discussions that included your sharing and explaining your ASD diagnosis.
* Why did you do that? You had an objective and this was a means of achieving it. What was the goal? What was the means? What, if anything, were you avoiding? What else might you have done instead?
* Was the timing right (in terms of your relationship)? Clearly it wasn't, so this is really "why was it wrong?".
* Was the delivery correct? Also clearly no, but why? Might better technique with the same objectives and facts have been significantly more effective? (An aside - In high-end sales this is a continuous process. It's very useful)
* Why wasn't your daughter receptive? If you choose to answer this, don't dig deep on this one. It's easy to get lost. But if it didn't "answer itself" in the three points above, spend a couple of minutes on it

I, stupidly, took her at face value when she asked me "How did your assessment go?".
I didn't realise the situation.
Later she said "I was just asking to be polite".

I wish I wasn't so Aspie sometimes, maybe, I would've grasped the nuance.

In my mind, people only ask because they want to know, which is me making the mistake of assigning my values to other's.
I'm just not great at getting this pathological need to "be polite" when you really don't feel like it, and it's unnecessary.
I was going in thinking "I won't bring it up" but then she did and I thought it was a genuine interest and kindly meant.
I don't like that I might have to be so guarded with my own offspring, but, I think that I might have to be.

 

[Hypnalis]

The way you mix everything up is a bit disorienting, but perhaps there's a lesson in that.

There's a way of looking at the kind of Aspie communication style you described, based on communication theory. This isn't a perfect match, but I hope you can bridge to what you need:

When you communicate well with someone you need to make decisions about what they can understand on the tropic you want to share. This is most obvious with young children - for them, we often tune the delivery, simplify the core message, and exclude concepts that are difficult for children (there are a lot of these).

So in the case of children, where it seems to be hard-wired, we compare what we want to say which what they can understand, and frame it as well as we can - which means we try to communicate the selected content in their terms.

This is necessary with adults too, but it's less obvious unless, for example, you're trying to explain something which requires a lot of specialist knowledge.

BTW - this is an odd point in the post, but it's very important: NT's do this automatically (though with widely varying skills levels. It's harder for us. But it's learnable. And it's worth a significant effort; if you want to influence interpersonal events around you, these are essential life skills. The core tasks cannot be delegated.

Back on track: what talking to kids, or from sharing specialist knowledge with non-specialists has in common with your daughter is the process of considering the other person's context and perspective before you decide what to say to them.
If you're asked a question, consider why that question? If you want to say something: does my audience they want to hear my version?
If you're explain something: how much detail is reasonable at this point?

* If you're not sure from your side (e.g. specialist to non-specialist), a quick "Q&A".
* If you're not sure about their side (very common), ask an open question.
* If asked a question, but you don't know if it's just a polite interrogative or a bridge to something the other person is interested in, answer as briefly as possible, then test: something like "There's a lot more to this - are you interested in the long version"?
(I use that one for technical discussions - I'd do something different in your case (you + daughter) but it's a very rare situation for for me).

BTW - this is one of the things I thought you might pick up via the "exercises" at the end of my previous post.
It not that useful to realize something went awry. If you want to change the outcome next time, you need to have a theory about what went on.

I still think you need a soft reset. But "soft" part is very difficult without taking the other person into account.

 

[Neri]

The way you mix everything up is a bit disorienting, but perhaps there's a lesson in that.

There's a way of looking at the kind of Aspie communication style you described, based on communication theory. This isn't a perfect match, but I hope you can bridge to what you need:

When you communicate well with someone you need to make decisions about what they can understand on the tropic you want to share. This is most obvious with young children - for them, we often tune the delivery, simplify the core message, and exclude concepts that are difficult for children (there are a lot of these).

So in the case of children, where it seems to be hard-wired, we compare what we want to say which what they can understand, and frame it as well as we can - which means we try to communicate the selected content in their terms.

This is necessary with adults too, but it's less obvious unless, for example, you're trying to explain something which requires a lot of specialist knowledge.

BTW - this is an odd point in the post, but it's very important: NT's do this automatically (though with widely varying skills levels. It's harder for us. But it's learnable. And it's worth a significant effort; if you want to influence interpersonal events around you, these are essential life skills. The core tasks cannot be delegated.

Back on track: what talking to kids, or from sharing specialist knowledge with non-specialists has in common with your daughter is the process of considering the other person's context and perspective before you decide what to say to them.
If you're asked a question, consider why that question? If you want to say something: does my audience they want to hear my version?
If you're explain something: how much detail is reasonable at this point?

* If you're not sure from your side (e.g. specialist to non-specialist), a quick "Q&A".
* If you're not sure about their side (very common), ask an open question.
* If asked a question, but you don't know if it's just a polite interrogative or a bridge to something the other person is interested in, answer as briefly as possible, then test: something like "There's a lot more to this - are you interested in the long version"?
(I use that one for technical discussions - I'd do something different in your case (you + daughter) but it's a very rare situation for for me).

BTW - this is one of the things I thought you might pick up via the "exercises" at the end of my previous post.
It not that useful to realize something went awry. If you want to change the outcome next time, you need to have a theory about what went on.

I still think you need a soft reset. But "soft" part is very difficult without taking the other person into account.

This is helpful. You put it in a way that's clear for me.

I wish I could figure out how to quote on my phone but I don't know how. I tried but ...
If I could I would have selected bits to respond to and been more organised in my delivery.

Yes, I think I meander around a lot, in my communication, sometimes, probably often.
From what I've learnt it seems to be a ADHDy style of communicating and thinking.

I only just figured out that part of my diagnosis late last year, thanks to two of my sons and spending time with my mum and two if my siblings, who are all exceedingly ADHDy.

Anyway diagnosed with the duel ASD+ADHD, two weeks ago and I haven't really worked on trying strategies to mitigate the difficult parts of it because its such a recent revelation.

Thanks for the feedback on the challenges with my communication style though.

Like I told oldest daughter when she first raised her resistance and criticisms regarding my recent habit of running all sorts of issues through the lens of "neurodivergent" based challenges "I appreciate you being honest and upfront with me, it really helps".

So, I'm feeling better today. Mainly because the support I've recently organised has kicked in.
My new support worker is going to drive me to my new psychologist.

I've really got to work on my other people sensitivity/empathy/comprehension of how that's what being relayed is being recieved, I think. At least, in my daughter's case. Because I do care about her so much, and I do want a relationship with her. The thought of going no contact is way too painful to consider as anything but a temporary solution.

I need to forgive. I need to be compassionate. I need to be her loving mum and figure out how she wants to be parented by me.

I need to be ok with not sharing my excitement at realising my neuro phenotype and finding folk like me and how life affirming and me affirming that is for me.

I need to encourage her, as I have been, to speak up for herself and put in her own boundaries, and this, my struggles, my diagnosis', is more than she can cope with, at least at the moment.

I need to be aware of my tendancy to info dump and realise that although it feels like a "love language" to me, that might (often probably is) NOT going to be how it's received.

And to be careful that it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses for myself, or my youngest son, for that matter. I tend to forget all the "having a disabled brother trauma" my kids all have. The root of it being the ASD and/or ADHDy genes, but, doesn't mean saying it is going to make them (at least the daughter in question) feel better.
Anyway gotta go. Got a big day out today

 

[Neri]

So update; I had a super helpful, awesome session with my psychologist, who I selected because she is ASD friendly and a trauma specialist. She gives peer support as well (as a domestic abuse survivor(, which is an approach that works reeeeaaaallly well for me.

In fact, I, myself, am trained as a mental health peer support worker.

This is my 4th session with her. She very much gets the "psychological warfare/ terrorism" of domestic abuse, such as I have been subject to.

And like she said, its very cult-like, the narcissistic abuse with the narcy person being like a cult leader and my kid's, well, I can't really be, I'm not the one, to deprogram them.

I am feeling so much stronger and on my own personal empowerment journey, and my "coming out of the autistic closet" is a big part of that. But I can't be caught up in how that is received by other's.